Jesus' faith or ours?

[Veritas]

Ok, so this is courtesy of listening to Dr. Gene Scott.

In Romans 3:21-22 the NIV reads:

But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe.

the KJV reads:

But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe:

So, does righteousness from God come from our faith or Jesus' faith. Could it be both?

 

[xicali]

By "means of Faith in Jesus Christ" That's my take... but see the Greek passage Here

 

[JohnR]

So, does righteousness from God come from our faith or Jesus' faith. Could it be both?

Righteousness is a work of God in us. He calls us to be holy, set apart from the world and sanctified onto Him. We are cleansed in the blood of Jesus so that our garment is pure and clean before Him.

Faith is also a gift or a fruit of the Holy Spirit. God's faith goes beyond human faith or what some call positive thinking. There are benifits to human faith and possibility thinking, but God's faith goes way beyond that. So it is not our work so much as the work that we allow God to do in us and though us. So that we become the hands and feet of Jesus. We are to be like Jesus and what He did was to preach, teach and heal the sick.

Matthew 4:23
And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing all kinds of sickness and all kinds of disease among the people.

I cannot heal anyone, but God can, and He can work though us.

 

[William Putnam]

So, does righteousness from God come from our faith or Jesus' faith. Could it be both?

I'm a bit confused here...

Is Jesus God? If so, how is it that Jesus, who is God, can have faith? Does not Jesus know all things, since He is God?

"Faith" is the believing in something that is not explainable or provable in physical terms, else it would not be faith but knowledge, like I know that 2 + 2 = 4 and the earth is in orbit around our sun.

Since God is all-knowing, no faith is required on His part... :angel:

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+


Christus Vincit! Christus Regnat! Christus Imperat!

 

[JohnR]

Is Jesus God? If so, how is it that Jesus, who is God, can have faith? Does not Jesus know all things, since He is God?

Jesus became a man, so He had all the limitations that humans have. He came to set an example for us. So the Holy Spirit of God had to work through Him, the same way the Holy Spirit of God works in and through us.

Since God is all-knowing, no faith is required on His part...

God is also able NOT to know. For example we are told that He will remember our sins no more. He can look into our future. He can also choose not to look into our futrue.

Jeremiah 31:34
And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord; for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

 

[JohnR]

Is Jesus God? If so, how is it that Jesus, who is God, can have faith? Does not Jesus know all things, since He is God?

Jesus became a man, so He had all the limitations that humans have. He came to set an example for us. So the Holy Spirit of God had to work through Him, the same way the Holy Spirit of God works in and through us.

Since God is all-knowing, no faith is required on His part...

God is also able NOT to know. For example we are told that He will remember our sins no more. He can look into our future. He can also choose not to look into our futrue.

Jeremiah 31:34
And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord; for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

 

[JohnR]

Is Jesus God? If so, how is it that Jesus, who is God, can have faith? Does not Jesus know all things, since He is God?

Jesus became a man, so He had all the limitations that humans have. He came to set an example for us. So the Holy Spirit of God had to work through Him, the same way the Holy Spirit of God works in and through us.

Since God is all-knowing, no faith is required on His part...

God is also able NOT to know. For example we are told that He will remember our sins no more. He can look into our future. He can also choose not to look into our futrue.

Jeremiah 31:34
And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord; for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

 

[William Putnam]

God is also able NOT to know. For example we are told that He will remember our sins no more. He can look into our future. He can also choose not to look into our futrue.

Jeremiah 31:34
And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord; for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Jesus was True God and True Man, so even in the incarnate body, Jesus still knew in advance what would happen and what was on the minds of men before they spoke them.

The statement, "I will remember their sin no more" is a saying that simply tells us that their sins are forgiven utterly, just as I would "not remember" a sin committed against me if the person came to me for forgiveness (even while it may remain in my subconscious.) "Not to remember" is simply saying that the sin is totally blotted out, as if it were never comitted.

Do not try to limit the extent of God, as you seem to be doing here. God has no limit, is eternal and all knowing. Limiting any of these, limits God, and therefore God is not infinite, and then He is NOT God. (I am simply taking your reasoning to it full extent...)

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+


Receive the holy Spirit, Whose sins you shall forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained,
John 20:23

 

[Veritas]

William Putnam wrote:
Since God(Jesus) is all-knowing, no faith is required on His part...

Good point. But faith and knowledge are two different things. You can know something, but not have faith in it. (Even the demons believe and shudder James 2:19)

William Putnam wrote:
Jesus was True God and True Man, so even in the incarnate body, Jesus still knew in advance what would happen and what was on the minds of men before they spoke them.

Agreed.

William Putnam wrote:
Do not try to limit the extent of God, as you seem to be doing here. God has no limit, is eternal and all knowing. Limiting any of these, limits God, and therefore God is not infinite, and then He is NOT God. (I am simply taking your reasoning to it full extent...)

I guess I'm trying to figure out how much God limited Himself. Obviously He limited Himself by becoming human and dying right?

I just found some other verses that speak of Jesus' faith:

Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. Galatians 2:16 KJV (NIV says "faith in")

But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. Galatians 3:22 KJV (NIV says "faith in")

And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: Philippians 3:9 KJV (NIV says "faith in")

I've talked about how the KJV is older english and how we use words differently now so I could be mistaken about "Jesus' faith" in those verses (xicali, thanks for the link by the way) but, look at what is written about Jesus in Hebrews...

Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might destroy him who holds the power of deathâ€â€that is, the devil .... For this reason he had to be made like his brothers in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people. Because he himself suffered when he was tempted, he is able to help those who are being tempted. Hebrews 2:14-18 NIV

 

[William Putnam]

I guess I'm trying to figure out how much God limited Himself. Obviously He limited Himself by becoming human and dying right?

He "limited Himself" only so we could perceive Him, as we obvously could not do, with our limited senses, to see Him in His infinite glory. Yet in that state, He remained infinite, limitedness and never less the God, who He was.

But you do touch upon something to think about: God did this out of an infinite love for us! That he would become like one of us is a profound mystery in itself, that He would endure incarnation to be True God and True Man.

I just found some other verses that speak of Jesus' faith:

Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. Galatians 2:16 KJV (NIV says "faith in")

My Catholic New American Bible (NAB) sasys the same thing, so perhaps we have a problem of translaton in the old KJV? And By the way, we Catholics also use the NIV (A Catholic edition that includes the deuterocanonicals as well and Catholic notes.) I understand it is a collaboration of both Catholic and Protestant scholars in it's interpretation.

But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. Galatians 3:22 KJV (NIV says "faith in")

Same comment as above.

I am not faulting the KJV trasnslators, as it may be that th say "faith of Jesus Christ" is grammatically and syntactically the same as "faith in Jesus Christ" in the idioms of the English Language at the time. And not being a language expert (Not even in my own lative tongue - English!) I am simply guessing here. :roll:

And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: Philippians 3:9 KJV (NIV says "faith in")

Same comments as above...

I've talked about how the KJV is older english and how we use words differently now so I could be mistaken about "Jesus' faith" in those verses (xicali, thanks for the link by the way) but, look at what is written about Jesus in Hebrews...

Yes, I think you are right. How the words "faith of Jesus" and "faith in Jesus" may change in time is interesting. It is a great problem in biblical interpretation, as you can imagine! To translate the Koine Greek in today's English is a formidible task. You had to know the indioms of the ancient, now defunct Koine Greek to understand the precise meaning. And that is way over my head, you can be sure!

Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might destroy him who holds the power of deathâ€â€that is, the devil .... For this reason he had to be made like his brothers in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people. Because he himself suffered when he was tempted, he is able to help those who are being tempted. Hebrews 2:14-18 NIV

The Hypostatic union of the human and divine natures in Christ is a profound mystery indeed! Ponder the question: As an infant, or very young toddler, did He fully understand who he was? I personally think so, but others may disagree. Did He actually, by His own divine will, intentionally reduced his own perception, be like a human child, but gradually become self-revealing to Himself just who He was?

I don't know if your are Calvanistic or not (or if so, to what degree) but it reminds me of the profound quandry: God is timeless and thus knows the future, and whether we will be saved or not (seemingly casting us in a life we cannot alter, which I believe is an error) and yet even in that knowledge, we are not denied our free will of choice between being saved or not at the end of our time, as we are made "in the image of God." Not to divert the topic with that but it shows us that profound ignorance in our finite human minds that we cannot conceve how God can become man in the Christ, the Second Person in the Holy Trinity.

Together, wse will both know when we get to heaven! :angel:

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+


Christus Vincit! Christus Regnat! Christus Imperat!

 

[Veritas]

The Hypostatic union of the human and divine natures in Christ is a profound mystery indeed! Ponder the question: As an infant, or very young toddler, did He fully understand who he was? I personally think so, but others may disagree. Did He actually, by His own divine will, intentionally reduced his own perception, be like a human child, but gradually become self-revealing to Himself just who He was?

Tough question, I think I would side more with your view. But, as you said, ultimately its a mystery.

I don't know if your are Calvanistic or not (or if so, to what degree) but it reminds me of the profound quandry: God is timeless and thus knows the future, and whether we will be saved or not (seemingly casting us in a life we cannot alter, which I believe is an error) and yet even in that knowledge, we are not denied our free will of choice between being saved or not at the end of our time, as we are made "in the image of God." Not to divert the topic with that but it shows us that profound ignorance in our finite human minds that we cannot conceve how God can become man in the Christ, the Second Person in the Holy Trinity.

Yeah, I don't think its something to be "figured out" either. I've been told I'm Arminian, so if you know what that is, thats where my ideas apparently line up closely to.

I've come to terms with the fact that "logic" is not everything. I like Pascal's quote:

"Reason’s last step is the recognition that there are an infinite number of things which are beyond it" (I got that from a Peter Kreeft book, know him? I think he's Catholic.)

Of course, I believe going beyond reason is reasonable because reason is affirmed as existing. This is of course different than what naturalists/"by chance" people claim when they say there is really no such thing as reason. A funny thing considering by doing this they void all their arguments! but oh well! maybe they'll figure that out someday

Anyways, now that I've completely gone off topic, I'm pretty sure the "faith of Jesus" verses I posted really mean "faith in" (I checked the NKJV and that's what it says). I still do think Jesus was being faithful (Hebrews 2:14-18) however mysterious that may be.

But yes, I hope to talk about this in heaven with you and Jesus too.

 

[AVBunyan]

So, does righteousness from God come from our faith or Jesus' faith. Could it be both?

Faith "of" (KJV) means it is Christ's faith that justifies.

Faith "in" (almost every new version out today) means it is your faith that justifies.

Your faith cannot justify - only God can justify.

Rom 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

God bless

 

[th1bill]

The comforting thing is that as long as we believe and seek after God, we will be saved.

 

[AVBunyan]

The comforting thing is that as long as we believe and seek after God, we will be saved.

Hmmm - sounds like self-effort/works to me.

BTW - What does one have to believe?
And - how does one seek God? Does the seeking help save?

God bless

 

[Veritas]

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16

So we are believing in Him, but I would say that God is the reason we do believe.

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faithâ€â€and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God Ephesians 2:8 (And this is even the NIV!)

So, theoretically, whether the verse reads "faith of" or "faith in" I know that even if I have faith in Jesus, it's because of God and not my own doing.

 

[AVBunyan]

So, theoretically, whether the verse reads "faith of" or "faith in" I know that even if I have faith in Jesus, it's because of God and not my own doing.

The issue is who does the justifying - Only God can justify - You may have faith in Christ but your faith cannot justify. How can your "great" faith make you righteous? Only God can do such a miraculous work!!! Praise his name.

Rom. 3:22 and Gal. 2:16 is quite clear.

Also look at a good definition:
2. In theology, to pardon and clear form guilt; to absolve or acquit from guilt and merited punishment, and to accept as righteous on account of the merits of the Savior, or by the application of Christ's atonement to the offender.

Can you faith pardon or acquit? "Somebody" must do the pardoning - not a faith - faith is not a "somebody" - it is a something. That somebody is Gd almighty!

Just depends on which Bible you believe is right. The AV says "of" - the newer ones say "in" - different doctrinally.

As for me and my house, we will rest on Christ's faith.

God bless

 

[golfjack]

reply

It's all about faith in what the Word says. For example, if it says I c an be saved, then I apply the scripture like Romans 10:9-10. If His Word says I can be healed, then I must use my faith to be healed. The Bible says our faith can grow exceedingly and the only thing that pleases God is our faith. My Lord doesn't have to please Himself. We must respond with corresponding actions to activate faith. Then believe in our hearts it is done until it comes into physical manifestation.



May God bless, Golfjack

 

[xicali]

Re: reply

It's all about faith in what the Word says. For example, if it says I c an be saved, then I apply the scripture like Romans 10:9-10. If His Word says I can be healed, then I must use my faith to be healed. The Bible says our faith can grow exceedingly and the only thing that pleases God is our faith. My Lord doesn't have to please Himself. We must respond with corresponding actions to activate faith. Then believe in our hearts it is done until it comes into physical manifestation.



May God bless, Golfjack

Where do we get faith to have applying faith. In other words "If His Word says I can be healed, then I must use my faith to be healed"

If the word says it, than it's a done deal. This is nothing to do with my faith.

We are in the flesh Faithless creatures.

Jesus in the days of His flesh said:

"...Verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you." Matthew 17:20

Please notice the big "If" ye have faith...

Therefore I would ask: If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this "grain of rice," Remove hence "to the floor;" and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you." This is a simple test that tells us that we don't have Faith.

We are confusing "Faith" with "Belief".

Jesus in the days of His flesh coined the word Faith for Belief and vise versa, because that was the going term used than. Their belief was based on what Moses had given them.

 

[DM]

Thanks to Veritas for addressing this

I find Veritas' inquiry into the faith "of Jesus", to be central to our Christian understanding. Indeed, the verses cited in this thread do refer to the faith "of Jesus" in the original language. The evidence for this is most notably captured in the exact same wording which describes the faith "of Abraham" (cf. Romans 4:16). If the english were worded as "faith in Abraham", the appropriate meaning would then be lost.

By the same token, to substitute faith "in" Jesus for God's inspired message of the faith "of" Jesus in these passages, is to sacrifice understanding for familiarity. One poster on this thread has said something to the effect that, since Jesus is God - he doesn't need faith. This is the critical disconnect that occurs as a result of not understanding (not believing in) Jesus' humanity.

Jesus was, in his own words, "a man . . . who heard from God". (cf. John 8:40). If Jesus were God, then indeed faith for him would be unnecessary. This version of Jesus being God, places him into a category of being that cannot be understood (as trinitarians themselves would admit).

Righteousness has always been determined by faith, and it always will. The righteous will live by faith. Abraham was declared righteous by God, not because of any works he had done, but because of his belief (i.e. faith) in God. To believe God, then, is to be declared righteous by God. It's the same for Jesus. Jesus' righteousness is based on his faith in God, just as was Abraham's. Faith and belief are synonymous.

Romans 11:20
"Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith."

Peace in Him.
David

 

[xicali]

Faith before and after the cross are not the same Faith.

David (DM) mentioned that "...The righteous will live by faith..." this is true after the cross.

Paul says to this effect:

"For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. Romans 1:17

You noticed that Paul said "as is written" quoting the following scripture:

"Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith. Habakkuk 2:4

Habakkuk says "his" Faith meaning the person's Faith or belief.

Did Paul made a mistake? Nope for it is mentioned in Galatians 3:11 and Hebrews 10:38 the same thing.

After the cross "The just shall live by faith." The faith of Christ that is.

"Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified."
Galatians 2:16

Veritas asked:

"...through faith in Jesus Christ..." (NIV)
"...which is by faith of Jesus Christ..." (KJV)

See it in the original language HERE