Jesus is Jehovah the YHWH of the Old Testament

[reddogs]

Jehovah is the Hebrew name for God in the Old Testament. He is given as the Creator of the universe and everything in it. The name Yahweh comes from the Hebrew word for "I am," which was translated as 'Jehovah.' Whenever the name 'LORD' is printed in small caps in the Bible, it means 'YAHWEH'. For ancient Jews, the name 'YAHWEH' was so sacred that they would not speak it nor would they write it in full, but gave it as 'YHWH'.

Now the scriptures is very clear that Jesus Christ is not just our Savior, but is also the Creator of the universe, Jehovah 'YAHWEH' of the Old Testament. Notice carefully:

All things were made by Him, and without Him was not anything made that has been made. John 1:3

He [Jesus] was in the world, and the world was made by Him, and the world knew Him not. John 1:10

God, who created all things by Jesus Christ. Ephesians 3:9

For by Him [Jesus] all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. Colossians 1:16

Thus Jesus Christ is our Creator. The One who created, rested. Thus the Sabbath commandment, when correctly understood in the light of both the Old and New Testaments, points to Jesus Christ

Now some may say but God the great Jehovah created the earth in the beginning, but here is were the mystery of the GodHead has to be understood in order to understand who Jesus was.

Jesus is the Jehovah of ALL the Bible. He is the LORD Jehovah that walked in the cool of the day in Eden. Jesus was the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Jesus was Jehovah God who gave the Ten Commandments. Jesus was Jehovah God who was in the pillar of fire by night and cloud by day. Jesus was Jehovah God who appeared to Moses in the fiery bush and declared I am that I am.

What Jesus claims about Himself - John 8:48-59
48 Then answered the Jews, and said unto him, Say we not well that thou art a Samaritan, and hast a devil?
49 Jesus answered, I have not a devil; but I honour my Father, and ye do dishonour me.
50 And I seek not mine own glory: there is one that seeketh and judgeth.
51 Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.
52 Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death.
53 Art thou greater than our father Abraham, which is dead? and the prophets are dead: whom makest thou thyself?
54 Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:
55 Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying.
56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

With solemn dignity Jesus answered, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I AM. Silence fell upon the vast assembly. The name of God, given to Moses to express the idea of the eternal presence, had been claimed as His own by Jesus.

Lets look at this story of Moses and the burning bush in Exodus...
Exodus 3:14-15..
14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you. 15 And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, The LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations.

Now scripture shows us even more clearly who Christ is, if we just let the Holy Spirit guide us into truth.

THE FIRST AND THE LAST
Revelation 1:11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

Revelation 1:17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:

Revelation 2:8 And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;

Revelation 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

Isaiah 41:4
Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he.

Isaiah 44:6
Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

Isaiah 48:12
Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last.

Now lets look at who is the Savior:

Isaiah 43:11
I, even I, am the LORD ; and beside me there is no saviour.

Isaiah 45:21
Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me.

Hosea 13:4
Yet I am the LORD thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no god but me: for there is no saviour beside me.

1Timothy 1:1
Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the commandment of God our Saviour, and Lord Jesus Christ, which is our hope;

2Peter 3:18
But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.

Philippians 3:20
For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:

Jesus is truly the Creator, Jehovah 'YAHWEH', the First and the Last, our Savior and Lord of the Sabbath. It is His day of worship from Creation, the day of rest, made for man not man for the Sabbath..

Genesis 2:1-2
1 Thus the heavens and the earth were completed in all their vast array.
2 By the seventh day God had finished the work he had been doing; so on the seventh day he rested from all his work. 3 Then God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it he rested from all the work of creating that he had done.

The Sabbath was for all mankind which the Creator gave us. Our Lord and Saviour shows us.

 

[reddogs]

Now, in the letter to the Colossians, Paul gives a description of Jesus which explains Christ's relationship to God the Father and to creation. Let's look at the text...

Colossians 1:15-21
King James Version (KJV)
15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled

Christ's relationship to His Father begins with the phrase "the image of the invisible God." The word 'image,' meaning copy or likeness, expresses Christ's deity. This word involves more than a resemblance, more than a representation. He is God! Although He took on human form, He has the express nature of the Father...
Hebrews 1:3
Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:

The "Word" of John 1:1 is a divine Person, not a theoretical abstraction. In the incarnation, the invisible God became visible in Christ; deity was clothed with humanity.

Matthew 17:2
And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.

Mark 9:2
And after six days Jesus taketh with him Peter, and James, and John, and leadeth them up into an high mountain apart by themselves: and he was transfigured before them.

All that God is, Christ is. The Bible shows us that Jesus is Lord of Creation. The description 'firstborn' speaks of Christ's preexistence. You can see that Jesus is called the first-born, not the first-created. The word "firstborn" (Greek word "prototokos") signifies priority. In the culture of the ancient times, the first-born was not necessarily the oldest child, as it referred not to birth order but to rank. The first-born possessed the inheritance and leadership. Therefore, the phrase ' the firstborn of every creature', expresses Christ's sovereignty over creation.

We also see the phrase recognizes Him as the Messiah, we see in these verses..
Psalm 89:27
Also I will make him [Christ] my firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth.

Romans 8:29
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Six times the Lord Jesus is declared to be the first-born of God (see Colossians 1:15, 18; Hebrews 1:6; 12:23; Revelation 1:5). These passages declare the preexistence, the sovereignty, and the redemption that Christ offers.Thus, the phrase "first-born of all creation" proclaims Christ's preeminence.

Now lets look at the point made that Jesus is never called the 'Almighty' in the entire bible. Let us now turn to Revelation 1:8:

Revelation 1:8
I am the Alpha and the Omega, says Jehovah God, the One who is and who was, and who is coming, the Almighty.

Clearly, he who is Alpha and Omega, and who is also 'the Almighty' is 'Jehovah God' himself. Now lets look further in the Chapter:

Revelation 1:12-13
King James Version (KJV)
12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.

John sees one 'like unto a son of man.' Now notice the context from here on, from verses 14 through 16 he is describing how this 'son of man' looked. Now this same son of man says in verses 17 and 18:

Revelation 1:17-18
King James Version (KJV)
17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

We notice, that the 'son of man' is the same person who, according to verse 17 and 18, is the 'First and the Last' and who also 'became dead.' Who else is this but Jesus Christ, who is constantly referred to through scripture as the 'son of man' and who 'became dead.' You have to say that the one speaking in verses 17 and 18 is Jesus, because you do not believe God can die. Now if it is true that this is Jesus, how is it that he is also called the First and the Last, which is the same as the Alpha and the Omega? And since God is the one claiming to be the 'Alpha and Omega' in verse 8, Jesus Christ, who also claims this title in verses 17 and 18, must therefore be the same one who spoke in verse 8. Now this poses a problem because he who spoke in verse 8 said that he is the 'Almighty.'

There is another reason to believe that the one speaking in verse 8 is the same person who speaks in verses 17 and 18. Verse 8 says that Jehovah God is the one 'who is coming.' There is another verse which also shows that God is the one coming found in Revelation 22:

Revelation 22:6-7
King James Version (KJV)
6 And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done.
7 Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.

Take note that it is 'Lord [Jehovah] God' who is coming 'quickly.' Now read verse 12 and 13:

Revelation 22:12-13
12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be
13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

We see that God says that he is coming quickly, and also that he is Alpha and Omega. Now read the rest of the chapter, and note carefully verse 20, which reads:

Revelation 22:20
He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

We now find, that he who we have seen is coming quickly and claiming to be the 'Alpha and Omega' is none other then Jesus Christ.

Revelation 1:8
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

 

[reddogs]

We read that the world was made by him, "and without him was not anything made that was made." If Christ made all things, he existed before all things, its laid out so clear that no one needs to be left in doubt. Christ was God essentially, and in the highest sense and was from all eternity.

Now if you look, everywhere where the Bible refers to The Son in the familiar name 'Jesus', it uses the Greek word "Iesous" (#2424). and we see Strong's definition:
2424 Ihsouv Iesous ee-ay-sooce'
of Hebrew origin 03091 ewvy; TDNT-3:284,360; n pr m
AV-Jesus 972, Jesus (Joshua) 2, Jesus (Justus) 1; 975
Jesus="Jehovah is salvation"
1) Jesus, the Son of God, the Saviour of mankind, God incarnate

The name Jesus means Jehovah or self-Existent Eternal One, and scripture tells us...

Hosea 13:4
Yet I am the LORD (Jehovah) thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no god but me: for there is no saviour beside me.

Isaiah 43:11.
I, even I, am the LORD (Jehovah); and beside me there is no saviour.

If the Son of God were NOT Jehovah the self-Existent, Eternal One he would not be the Saviour of the world.

Isaiah 42:8
I am the LORD (Jehovah): that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.

Ezekiel 39:7
So will I make my holy name known in the midst of my people Israel; and I will not let them pollute my holy name any more: and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD (Jehovah), the Holy One in Israel.

But if Christ is the Lord God Jehovah, it all comes together...
John 17:4-5
4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do. 5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

Mark 1:24
Saying, Let us alone; what have we to do with thee, thou Jesus of Nazareth? art thou come to destroy us? I know thee who thou art, the Holy One of God.

Luke 4:34
Saying, Let us alone; what have we to do with thee, thou Jesus of Nazareth? art thou come to destroy us? I know thee who thou art; the Holy One of God

Acts 2:27
Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

Acts 3:14
But ye denied the Holy One and the Just, and desired a murderer to be granted unto you;

Acts 13:35
Wherefore he saith also in another psalm, Thou shalt not suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

1 John 2:20
But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.

We need to understand what scripture gives us...

Colossians 2:9
For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

 

[reddogs]

Now compare the following:

Genesis 17:1
And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the Lord appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.

Speaking to the Jews, Jesus told them:

John 8:56
Your father Abraham rejoiced to see MY day: and he saw it, and was glad.

The Jews were absolutely amazed at what Jesus sad, because Jesus was only in His early thirties, they could not ponder how He possibly have been alive in Abraham's day, so they reacted.

John 8:57-58
57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I AM.

The Jews understood what was being declared, Jesus equating Himself with the eternal 'I AM.' Verse 59 says,
'Therefore they picked up stones to throw at Him'

The Jews understood clearly what Christ had said, it was that He was the Almighty God that had walked with Abraham. Then you connect it to the following verse:

Exodus 6:2-4
King James Version (KJV)
2 And God spake unto Moses, and said unto him, I am the Lord:
3 And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name Jehovah was I not known to them.
4 And I have also established my covenant with them, to give them the land of Canaan, the land of their pilgrimage, wherein they were strangers.

So now we see it is God Almighty, Jehovah, who spoke to Abraham along with Isaac and Jacob, so Christ was laying claim to being God Almighty, Jehovah.

 

[reddogs]

Now compare the following:

Genesis 17:1
And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the Lord appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.

Speaking to the Jews, Jesus told them:

John 8:56
Your father Abraham rejoiced to see MY day: and he saw it, and was glad.

The Jews were absolutely amazed at what Jesus sad, because Jesus was only in His early thirties, they could not ponder how He possibly have been alive in Abraham's day, so they reacted.

John 8:57-58
57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I AM.

The Jews understood what was being declared, Jesus equating Himself with the eternal 'I AM.' Verse 59 says,
'Therefore they picked up stones to throw at Him'

The Jews understood clearly what Christ had said, it was that He was the Almighty God that had walked with Abraham. Then you connect it to the following verse:

Exodus 6:2-4
King James Version (KJV)
2 And God spake unto Moses, and said unto him, I am the Lord:
3 And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name Jehovah was I not known to them.
4 And I have also established my covenant with them, to give them the land of Canaan, the land of their pilgrimage, wherein they were strangers.

So now we see it is God Almighty, Jehovah, who spoke to Abraham along with Isaac and Jacob, so Christ was laying claim to being God Almighty, Jehovah.

 

[tigger II]

If you will pick your 2 best 'proofs,' I would like to reply to them. I'm too old and tired to take on all your posts at once.

 

[reddogs]

If you will pick your 2 best 'proofs,' I would like to reply to them. I'm too old and tired to take on all your posts at once.

One is enough...
Isaiah 9:6
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

 

[reddogs]

Here is a good article on the issue,
"Notice, now, some comparisons of texts from the Old and New Testaments showing beyond a reasonable doubt that Jesus is indeed identified as Jehovah. These will be given in outline form so that the comparison will be more vivid.

1. The precursor. "A voice cries: 'In the wilderness prepare the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God" (Isa. 40:3).*

"He [John the Baptist] said, 'I am the voice of one crying in the wilderness, "Make straight the way of the Lord," as the prophet Isaiah said'" (John 1:23).

Certainly John knew the Hebrew of Isaiah's prophecy. When he claimed to be the "voice" of Isaiah's prediction, he was claiming to be preparing the way for Jehovah, who was in fact, Jesus.

2. Jehovah the Creator. "Have you not known? Have you not heard? The LORD is the everlasting God, the Creator of the ends of the earth. He does not faint or grow weary, his understanding is unsearchable" (Isa. 40:28).

"He [the Word, or Jesus] was in the world, and the world was made through him, yet the world knew him not" (John 1:10).

The Creator of the world came into that world but was not accepted. If Jesus is not Jehovah, He is not the Creator. Further more, Isaiah calls the Creator the "ever lasting God." Jesus is the Eternal One, Jehovah.

3. The glory. " 'I am the LORD, that is my name; my. glory I give to no other, nor my praise to graven images'" (Isa. 42:8).

" 'And now, Father, glorify thou me in thy own presence with the glory which I had with thee before the world was made'" (John 17:5).

As an obedient Son, would Jesus ask His Father for glory that Jehovah said He would never share? Or is Jesus entitled to that glory because He, too, is Jehovah— one with the Father?

4. The Rock. " 'For 1 will proclaim the name of the LORD. Ascribe greatness to our God! The Rock, his work is perfect; for all his ways are justice'" (Deut. 32:3, 4).

"For they [the fathers] drank from the supernatural Rock which followed them, and the Rock was Christ" (1 Cor. 10:4).

Jehovah is declared to be the Rock. Paul declares the Rock was Christ. Thus Christ must unquestionably be Jehovah.

5. The Shepherd. "The LORD is my shepherd, I shall not want" (Ps. 23:1).

'"I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep'" (John 10:11).

Jehovah is the Shepherd, and Jesus applied this name to Himself in full knowledge of His own deity.

6. The First and the Last. "Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: 'I am the first and I am the last; besides me there is no god' " (Isa. 44:6).

" 'Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense, to repay every one for what he has done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end'" (Rev. 22:12, 13; cf. 1:17, 18).

Jehovah says that He is the first and the last. The One who is coming quickly to give rewards (see Matt. 16:27) declares Himself to be the first and the last. The One who was dead and is now alive forevermore (see Rev. 1:17, 18) declares that He is the first and the last. There cannot be the slightest doubt that Jesus who died for us—the first and the last—is none other than Jehovah.

7. Jesus' absolute, eternal deity. "'I am the LORD, and there is no other, besides me there is no God'" (Isa. 45:5). " 'You are my witnesses! Is there a God besides me? There is no Rock; I know not any'" (chap. 44:8).

"'I and the Father are one.' The Jews took up stones again to stone him. Jesus answered them, 'I have shown you many good works from the Father; for which of these do you stone me?' The Jews answered him, 'It is not for a good work that we stone you but for blasphemy; because you, being a man, make yourself God'" (John 10:30- 33).

Jehovah categorically declares there is no God but Him. He denies the very teaching of the Jehovah's Witnesses that Jehovah is the God, but that Jesus is a god.

When Jesus said that He and His Father are one, He made the greatest claim anyone could make. The Jews understood His claim. To their mind, there was only one God, and His name was Jehovah. Jesus clearly claimed to be that God, and they determined to stone Him.

8. The Saviour. " 'For I am the LORD your God, the Holy One of Israel, your Savior. ... I, I am the LORD, and besides me there is no savior'" (Isa. 43:3-11).

"'There is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved'" (Acts 4:12).

These texts declare that Jehovah alone is Saviour. If Jesus is not Jehovah, we have no Saviour. Note also that the Son of the virgin is given His name by an angel (see Matt. 1:21). The name Jesus means "Jehovah saves."...Is Jesus Jehovah God?

 

[tigger II]

One is enough...
Isaiah 9:6
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

.................................................

From an earlier study of mine:

....

And another way competent Bible scholars have interpreted the meaning of this name is with the understanding that it (as with many, if not most, of the other Israelites’ personal names) does not apply directly to the person bearing the name (as we have already seen with “Elijah,” “Abijah,” etc.) but is, instead, a statement praising the Father, Jehovah God.

Personal names in the ancient Hebrew and Greek are often somewhat cryptic to us today. The English Bible translator must fill in the missing minor words (especially in names composed of two or more Hebrew words) such as “my,” “is,” “of,” etc. in whatever way he thinks best in order to make sense for us today in English.

For instance, two of the best Bible concordances (Young’s and Strong’s) and a popular trinitarian Bible dictionary (Today’s Dictionary of the Bible) differ greatly on the exact meaning of many Biblical personal names because of those “minor” words which must be added to bring out the intended meaning.

Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance, for example, says the name “Elimelech” (which is literally just “God King”) means “God of (the) King.” Young’s Analytical Concordance says it means “God is King.” Today’s Dictionary of the Bible says it means “ God his king” - p. 206, Bethany House Publ., 1982.

Those missing minor words that the translator must supply at his own discretion can often make a vital difference! - For example, the footnote for Gen. 17:5 in The NIV Study Bible: The name ‘Abram’ “means ‘Exalted Father,’ probably in reference to God (i.e., ‘[God is the] Exalted Father’).” - bracketed information is in the original.

This is why another name the Messiah is to be called by at Jer. 23:6 is rendered, `The LORD [YHWH] IS Our Righteousness' in the following Bibles: RSV; NRSV; NEB; NJB; JPS (Margolis, ed.); Tanakh; Byington; AT; and ASV (footnote). Of course other translations render it more literally by calling the Messiah "The LORD [YHWH] Our Righteousness" to help support a `Jesus is God' doctrine. Some of these (such as the NASB) actually render the very same name at Jer. 33:16 as "The LORD [or Jehovah] is Our Righteousness"! - [bracketed information is mine].

(Unfortunately for "Jesus is Jehovah" advocates, the very same name given to the Messiah at Jer. 23:16 is given to a city at Jer. 33:16.)

Therefore, the personal name at Is. 9:6 has been honestly translated in the footnote as:

“And his name is called: Wonderful in counsel IS God the Mighty, the Everlasting Father, the Ruler of Peace” - The Holy Scriptures, JPS Version (Margolis, ed.)

to show that it is intended to praise the God of the Messiah who performs great things through the Messiah.

Also, An American Translation (by trinitarians Smith & Goodspeed) says:

“Wonderful Counselor IS God Almighty, Father forever, Prince of Peace.”

From the Is. 9:6 footnote in the trinity-supporting NET Bible:

".... some have suggested that one to three of the titles that follow ['called'] refer to God, not the king. For example, the traditional punctuation of the Hebrew text suggests the translation, 'and the Extraordinary Strategist, the Mighty God calls his name, "Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace."'"

And The Leeser Bible has:

“Wonderful, counsellor of the mighty God, of the everlasting Father, the prince of peace”

Of course it could also be honestly translated:

“The Wonderful Counselor and Mighty God Is the Everlasting Father of the Prince of Peace.”

And the Tanakh by the JPS, 1985, translates it:

[a] “The Mighty God is planning grace;

The Eternal Father [is] a peaceable ruler.”

This latter translation seems particularly appropriate since it is in the form of a parallelism. Not only was the previous symbolic personal name introduced by Isaiah at Is. 8:1 a parallelism (“Maher-Shalal-Hash-Baz” means [a]“quick to the plunder; swift to the spoil” - NIV footnote) but the very introduction to this Messianic name at Is. 9:6 is itself a parallelism: [a]“For unto us a child is born; unto us a son is given.” It would, therefore, be appropriate to find that this name, too, was in the form of a parallelism as translated by the Tanakh above.

So it is clear, even to a number of trinitarian scholars, that Is. 9:6 does not necessarily imply that Jesus is Jehovah God.

 

[Runningman]

We read that the world was made by him, "and without him was not anything made that was made."

The true Light was that coming into the world in the present tense is not he who was in the world in the past tense. The true Light was coming into the world when Jesus was ~30 years old evidenced by John the Baptist testifying of such.

Therefore the one who was in the world was Jesus, but the literal "world" wasn't made through Jesus when he was ~30 years old. This entire context refers to God creating the world, not Jesus. The Word is also not the True Light, therefore the Word isn't Lord God Almighty.

John 1
7He came as a witness to testify about the Light, so that through him everyone might believe. 8He himself was not the Light, but he came to testify about the Light.
9The true Light who gives light to every man was coming into the world. 10He was in the world, and though the world was made through Him, the world did not recognize Him.

 

[reddogs]

The true Light was that coming into the world in the present tense is not he who was in the world in the past tense. The true Light was coming into the world when Jesus was ~30 years old evidenced by John the Baptist testifying of such.

Therefore the one who was in the world was Jesus, but the literal "world" wasn't made through Jesus when he was ~30 years old. This entire context refers to God creating the world, not Jesus. The Word is also not the True Light, therefore the Word isn't Lord God Almighty.

John 1
7He came as a witness to testify about the Light, so that through him everyone might believe. 8He himself was not the Light, but he came to testify about the Light.
9The true Light who gives light to every man was coming into the world. 10He was in the world, and though the world was made through Him, the world did not recognize Him.

Lets look at John 1 to see the context then as it shows Whom it was from verse 1, and we can see it is Jesus...
John 1
1 In the beginning was the Word [Jesus], and the Word [Jesus] was with God, and the Word [Jesus] was God.

2 The same [Jesus] was in the beginning with God.

3 All things were made by him [Jesus]; and without him [Jesus] was not any thing made that was made.

4 In him [Jesus] was life; and the life was the light of men.

5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.

7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light [Jesus], that all men through him might believe.

8 He was not that Light [Jesus], but was sent to bear witness of that Light [Jesus].

9 That was the true Light [Jesus], which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

10 He [Jesus] was in the world, and the world was made by him [Jesus], and the world knew him [Jesus] not.

11 He [Jesus] came unto his own, and his [Jesus] own received him [Jesus] not.

12 But as many as received him [Jesus], to them gave he [Jesus] power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his [Jesus] name:

13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

14 And the Word [Jesus] was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his [Jesus] glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

15 John bare witness of him [Jesus], and cried, saying, This was he [Jesus] of whom I spake, He [Jesus] that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he [Jesus] was before me.

16 And of his [Jesus] fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.

17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

Scripture is clear Whom John was talking about, but we have to have the eyes that see....

 

[tigger II]

Why Jesus is called Logos (Word) by John, and why that (and an honest study of John's grammar usage) make it certain that at John 1:1c John calls the Word "a god":

http://examiningthetrinity.blogspot.com/2009/09/logos-word.html

http://examiningthetrinity.blogspot.com/2013/02/seven-lessons-for-john-11c-a.html

Yes, I know. They're too long and take too much thought. And, although I have posted them many times in many debate groups, no one has ever replied to either of them in a way that actually discusses what I have found when I made the studies.

Nevertheless, I still hope someone will actually discuss what I have written.

 

[Free]

Why Jesus is called Logos (Word) by John, and why that (and an honest study of John's grammar usage) make it certain that at John 1:1c John calls the Word "a god":

http://examiningthetrinity.blogspot.com/2009/09/logos-word.html

http://examiningthetrinity.blogspot.com/2013/02/seven-lessons-for-john-11c-a.html

Yes, I know. They're too long and take too much thought. And, although I have posted them many times in many debate groups, no one has ever replied to either of them in a way that actually discusses what I have found when I made the studies.

Nevertheless, I still hope someone will actually discuss what I have written.

There is one fundamental, biblical fact that precludes translating 1:1c as “a god”: there was, is, and ever will be only one God; not even one other god. But don’t take my word for it, we should see what God says:

Deu 4:35 To you it was shown, that you might know that the LORD is God; there is no other besides him.
…
Deu 4:39 know therefore today, and lay it to your heart, that the LORD is God in heaven above and on the earth beneath; there is no other.

Deu 32:39 "'See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god beside me; I kill and I make alive; I wound and I heal; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand.

1Sa 2:2 “There is none holy like the LORD: for there is none besides you; there is no rock like our God.

Isa 43:10 "You are my witnesses," declares the LORD, "and my servant whom I have chosen, that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor shall there be any after me.
Isa 43:11 I, I am the LORD, and besides me there is no savior.

Isa 44:6 Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: “I am the first and I am the last; besides me there is no god.
Isa 44:7 Who is like me? Let him proclaim it. Let him declare and set it before me, since I appointed an ancient people. Let them declare what is to come, and what will happen.
Isa 44:8 Fear not, nor be afraid; have I not told you from of old and declared it? And you are my witnesses! Is there a God besides me? There is no Rock; I know not any.”
…
Isa 44:24 Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer, who formed you from the womb: "I am the LORD, who made all things, who alone stretched out the heavens, who spread out the earth by myself,

Isa 45:5 I am the LORD, and there is no other, besides me there is no God; I equip you, though you do not know me,
Isa 45:6 that people may know, from the rising of the sun and from the west, that there is none besides me; I am the LORD, and there is no other.
…
Isa 45:18 For thus says the LORD, who created the heavens (he is God!), who formed the earth and made it (he established it; he did not create it empty, he formed it to be inhabited!): "I am the LORD, and there is no other.
…
Isa 45:21 Declare and present your case; let them take counsel together! Who told this long ago? Who declared it of old? Was it not I, the LORD? And there is no other god besides me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none besides me.
Isa 45:22 "Turn to me and be saved, all the ends of the earth! For I am God, and there is no other.

Isa 46:9 remember the former things of old; for I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me,

Isa 48:11 For my own sake, for my own sake, I do it, for how should my name be profaned? My glory I will not give to another.
Isa 48:12 "Listen to me, O Jacob, and Israel, whom I called! I am he; I am the first, and I am the last.
Isa 48:13 My hand laid the foundation of the earth, and my right hand spread out the heavens; when I call to them, they stand forth together.

Mar 12:29 "The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one.
...
Mar 12:32 And the scribe said to him, “You are right, Teacher. You have truly said that he is one, and there is no other besides him.
...
Mar 12:34 And when Jesus saw that he answered wisely, he said to him, “You are not far from the kingdom of God.” And after that no one dared to ask him any more questions. (ESV)

We should take note of a few things. First, God does not say that he doesn't know of another god that shouldn't be worshipped, but rather that he doesn't know of any other god, period, and that there never will be another. It has nothing to do with whether or not that other god is worshipped.

Second, God says that he “made all things, [and] alone stretched out the heavens, [and] spread out the earth by myself.” Yet, John states that a distinct, divine, eternal “person” was also involved in the creation of everything that was ever created in John 1:3. Not only does that also preclude the Word from being “a god,” if God said he alone created the heavens and the earth, then either Isaiah or John is wrong. And, of course, Paul agrees with John in 1 Cor 8:6 and Col 1:16-17. The writer of Hebrews agrees but is even more explicit in that he says the Father says that Psalm 102:25-27, speaking of Yahweh creating, is speaking of the Son. So, either they are all wrong or Isaiah is wrong, if the Son is not also truly God.

Third, God says “my glory I will not give to another.” But Jesus said that he shared the Father’s glory before creation (John 17:5). Fourth, God says he “is the first, and [he] is the last.” But in Rev 1:17, 2:8, and 22:3, Jesus says he is “the first and the last.”

There is and ever will be only one being that is God, and that is Yahweh. So, it doesn’t matter what one thinks they know about the meaning of logos or what they think they know of Greek grammar, “the Word was a god” is absolutely excluded from being a legitimate translation.

 

[tigger II]

Obviously didn't bother to read them.

 

[Free]

Obviously didn't bother to read them.

I have looked at much of your writings before and addressed them. But, again, the translation "a god" is over before it even starts, as it completely ignores the verses I posted above.

 

[tigger II]

You have never addressed the main points of my studies. If you don't just brush them off with "That's stupid" (or something similar), you ignore by shotgunning other scriptures and interpretations.

 

[Free]

You have never addressed the main points of my studies. If you don't just brush them off with "That's stupid" (or something similar), you ignore by shotgunning other scriptures and interpretations.

If you want to make any of those claims, then you need to provide proof. The fundamental problem with all anti-Trinitarian understandings of Scripture is taking verses out of context. Some want to "debate" one verse at a time, but that is precisely the problem.

Even here you want to take 1:1c out of context from the rest of the verse, the two verses that follow it, and the rest of John's gospel, never mind the rest of Scripture, including the verses I posted above. They form essential context as to the nature of God, showing that "a god" can never be a legitimate translation because there was, is, and ever will be only one God (or god). God himself says so and we would do well to believe him.

 

[tigger II]

Has anyone here actually read my studies of John 1:1c and of the Logos?

 

[Free]

Has anyone here actually read my studies of John 1:1c and of the Logos?

I’ve skimmed but there is far too much there. Again, monotheism completely rules out “a god,” leaving the meaning qualitative, which, when it comes to the nature of God, is to essentially say “God.”

 

[tigger II]

I’ve skimmed but there is far too much there. Again, monotheism completely rules out “a god,” leaving the meaning qualitative, which, when it comes to the nature of God, is to essentially say “God.”

..........................................................
The second lesson in the "seven lessons... ' has the following:

So by now we should be able to see that in John 1:1c (‘theos was the Word’) the word theos does not have the article (ὁ or ‘ho’) and, according to John’s usage of such nouns, it would normally be translated as ‘a god.’
………………………………..........

Footnote:

Some of these trinitarian sources which admit that the Bible actually describes men who represent God (judges, Israelite kings, etc.) and God's angels as gods include:

1. Young's Analytical Concordance of the Bible, "Hints and Helps...," Eerdmans, 1978 reprint;
2. Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, #430, Hebrew and Chaldee Dict., Abingdon, 1974;
3. New Bible Dictionary, p. 1133, Tyndale House Publ., 1984;
4. Today's Dictionary of the Bible, p. 208, Bethany House Publ., 1982;
5. Hastings' A Dictionary of the Bible, p. 217, Vol. 2;
6. The New Brown-Driver-Briggs-Gesenius Hebrew-English Lexicon, p. 43, Hendrickson publ.,1979;
7. Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, #2316 (4.), Thayer, Baker Book House, 1984 printing;
8. The International Standard Bible Encyclopaedia, p. 132, Vol. 1; & p. 1265, Vol. 2, Eerdmans, 1984;
9. The NIV Study Bible, footnotes for Ps. 45:6; Ps. 82:1, 6; & Jn 10:34; Zondervan, 1985;
10. New American Bible, St. Joseph ed., footnote for Ps. 45:7, 1970 ed.;
11. A. T. Robertson, Word Pictures, Vol. 5, pp. 188-189;
12. William G. T. Shedd, Dogmatic Theology, Vol. 1, pp. 317, 324, Nelson Publ., 1980 printing;
13. Murray J. Harris, Jesus As God, p. 202, Baker Book House, 1992;
14. William Barclay, The Gospel of John, V. 2, Daily Study Bible Series, pp. 77, 78, Westminster Press,1975;
15. The New John Gill Exposition of the Entire Bible (John 10:34 and Ps. 82:6);
16. The Fourfold Gospel (Note for John 10:35);
17. Commentary Critical and Explanatory on the Whole Bible - Jamieson, Fausset, Brown (John 10:34-36);
18. Matthew Henry Complete Commentary on the Whole Bible (Ps. 82:6-8 and John 10:35);
19. John Wesley's Explanatory Notes on the Whole Bible (Ps. 82:1).
20. Theological Dictionary of the New Testament ('Little Kittel'), - p. 328, Eerdmans Publishing Co., 1985.
21. The Expositor’s Greek Testament, pp. 794-795, Vol. 1, Eerdmans Publishing Co.
22. The Amplified Bible, Ps. 82:1, 6 and John 10:34, 35, Zondervan Publ., 1965.
23. Barnes' Notes on the New Testament, John 10:34, 35.
24. B. W. Johnson's People's New Testament, John 10:34-36.
25. The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology, Zondervan, 1986, Vol. 3, p. 187.
26. Fairbairn’s Imperial Standard Bible Encyclopedia, p. 24, vol. III, Zondervan, 1957 reprint.
27. Theological Dictionary, Rahner and Vorgrimler, p. 20, Herder and Herder, 1965.
(also John 10:34, 35 - CEV: TEV; GodsWord; The Message; NLT; NIRV; David Guzik (John 10:34).

And, of course the highly respected and highly popular Jewish writer, Philo, had the same understanding for "God"/"a god" about the same time the NT was written. - See the LOGOS study.

And the earliest Christians like the highly respected NT scholar Origen and others - - including Tertullian; Justin Martyr; Hippolytus; Clement of Alexandria; Theophilus; the writer of "The Epistle to Diognetus"; and even super-Trinitarians St. Athanasius and St. Augustine - - also had this understanding for "a god." And, as we saw above, many respected NT scholars of this century agree. (For example, Ernst Haenchen tells us in his commentary on the Gospel of John:

"It was quite possible in Jewish and Christian monotheism to speak of divine beings that existed alongside and under God but were not identical with him. Phil 2:6-10 proves that. In that passage Paul depicts just such a divine being, who later became man in Jesus Christ". - John 1, translated by R. W. Funk, 1984, pp. 109, 110, Fortress Press.)
.....................................................
So we see that this easily found part of Lesson 2 shows that "a god" IS a part of monotheism. There is only one person who is God, but a number of other persons called "a god."

Why won't you take a single part at a time and discuss it properly? How about starting in Lesson 1 where it begins with "First, ...."
Or go to the Logos study and start at the beginning with a single part where I have erred. Then, after I respond go on to the next "error."