Jesus is Our only Comforter 1st John 2:1

[SonByAdoption]

Jesus made it clear who is our only Comforter when He said "I will not leave you comfortless:I will come to you."John 14:18Websters Bible Translation and K.J.V. but you being a trinitarian might disagree with my interpretation so let's hear from a trinitarian to help us get a better understanding about this important subject.

Francisdesales is a very well known and respected Catholic trinitarian on this Christian Forums site and is trusted by Catholics and Protestant trinitarians alike and when he speaks people listen so let us listen to him tell us what is the Greek word that was translated into Comforter.

"The Holy Spirit, the Paraclete, is a person separate and distinct from the Father and the Son, since they BOTH send the Spirit, who is another person..."

Francisdesales teaches the modern day trinitarian doctrine the one that all must abide by if they want to be considered Christian the one that is the most popular teaching in the world the one that if you don't abide by it Christian Forums will not like it, the one that says the Comforter/ Paraclete is a 3rd Person but the Truth is not always the most popular because if it was than Satan wouldn't be doing his job.

The Apostle John who was a direct witness to the Son of God Himself who walked with Jesus and talked with Him in person who learned all of Christ's teachings that never made it into the Bible, who heard Christ's famous Comforter sermon in person and had a very good understanding of Greek even though he'd never heard of english and our translation has been blinding us for hundreds and hundreds of years from the truth that John taught that Jesus Christ is our only Comforter/Paraclete.

My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate/Paraclete with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: 1st John 2:1

 

[francisdesales]

Jesus made it clear who is our only Comforter when He said "I will not leave you comfortless:I will come to you."John 14:18

Francisdesales is a very well known and respected Catholic trinitarian on this Christian Forums site and is trusted by Catholics and Protestant trinitarians alike and when he speaks people listen so let us listen to him tell us what is the Greek word that was translated into Comforter.

The Apostle John who was a direct witness to the Son of God Himself who walked with Jesus and talked with Him in person who learned all of Christ's teachings that never made it into the Bible, who heard Christ's famous Comforter sermon in person and had a very good understanding of Greek even though he'd never heard of english and our translation has been blinding us for hundreds and hundreds of years from the truth that John taught that Jesus Christ is our only Comforter/Paraclete.

My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate/Paraclete with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: 1st John 2:1

SonByAdoption, where does Jesus say HE is the ONLY Advocate/Paraclete?

Nowhere. He calls Himself an Advocate, but that doesn't mean there is not ANOTHER...

And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you ANOTHER COMFORTER, that he may abide with you for ever; [Even] the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you. John 14:16-18

These words from Jesus clearly show ANOTHER Comforter exists, one who existed FROM THE BEGINNING (as my next citation shows), making your thesis dead on arrival...

Let's look at some other words Jesus says about this OTHER Comforter...

But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, [even] the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me. And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning. John 15:26-27

Now, we see Jesus speaking of a Comforter Whom Jesus will send. Another person. And note that the Spirit ALSO proceeds from the Father! He has SEEN the Son from the Beginning. The Beginning, according to John 1, is literally, BEFORE CREATION. Thus, we see, after pondering, that the Spirit is indeed another Comforter sent from God.

So what do we have?

First, there is another Comforter. Second, Jesus and the Father send this Comforter, which means THEY are not the "other" Comforter. Jesus is a Comforter, since He calls the Spirit "ANOTHER". John and Paul also note that there is another Advocate who intercedes for us, and Jesus is not the ONLY one who advocates or intercedes for us. Jesus AND the Spirit intercede/advocate for us...

And finally, the unification of the Comforters. By saying that the "other" is sent does not mean that the original Comforter is ALSO not there. The Spirit has been there from the beginning and ALSO proceeds from the Father. Thus, the Triune God is present, Father, Son and Spirit, who comes to dwell in the inner life of man.

THAT is the CORE REVELATION given to mankind. That God desires to come to mankind and live within us. Redemption is just one aspect among THE doctrine of Christianity - that God wants to share Himself with us.

Regards

 

[SonByAdoption]

If it's possible for Samuel to become another man in 1st Samuel 10:6 than why isn't possible for Jesus to become another Comforter Himself without the help of some third person?

My dear Christian friends let us not be ignorant anymore about this word another. God has given us another heart but it is not physical. It's not literally another heart. God did not literally give us a heart transplant when we were asleep at night but our same spiritual heart has taken on another form.

And when we are born again meaning that we have another birth this doesn't mean that we go back in the womb as Nicodemus was joking about before his conversion. Our 2nd birth is not literal or physical but it's spiritual.

And when God makes us a new creature or another creature it is not literal or physical either at least not until we get our glorified bodies at Christ's 2nd coming but for right now its only a spiritual new creation.

The Bible calls us another creature but this doesn't mean that we are some third person but it is us ourselves who go through this spiritual transformation/conversion and this is the same way how Jesus used the word another to talk about himself being our only Comforter in another non bodily and spiritual form. Jesus wasn't talking about a third person. He was talking about Himself in the third person like when he said the Son of Man did this and the Son of man did that and the Son of God will wake up the dead.This is how 1st century people talked.

SonByAdoption, where does Jesus say HE is the ONLY Advocate/Paraclete?

The One and Only Mediator/Intercessor and Prince of the Universe the Son of God limited/emptied Himself to a human body for 33years and during this time period He could only comfort the ones he came into physical contact with the ones who He Immanuel dwelt with but He promised them "...he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you."John 14:17 that when He is glorified His human body won't limit him anymore because He will be glorified with His limitless powers like the power to send His Own Spirit the Spirit of Christ[1peter1:11] and the Spirit of God's Son[galatians 4:6] in all of our hearts. "...For the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus wasn't yet glorified." John 7:39

 

[francisdesales]

If it's possible for Samuel to become another man in 1st Samuel 10:6 than why isn't possible for Jesus to become another Comforter Himself without the help of some third person?

You are clearly mis-using the word "another" here.

Samuel remains the same physical person in time and space. His INNER SELF changed. This is the effects of the Holy Spirit upon a person. It transforms the person, but the OLD person is GONE... There is not now "another person" present. "Another" refers to the old that has passed away, not as if Samuel (or anyone) has a split personality.

In Jesus' case, who was already filled with the Spirit, "another" refers to a DIFFERENT person, since Jesus is sending this OTHER person. People do not say "I am going to send another" while refering to themselves...

Jesus said He would send another Comforter. He is a Comforter. Why the need to say that He would send ANOTHER Comforter, as if refering to Himself? This is a desperate attempt to twist the Words of Christ, rather than simply take them for what they say. He says this OTHER Comforter was with Him from the Beginning, thus indicating that there is another Person who witnessed the Son from the Beginning.

My dear Christian friends let us not be ignorant anymore about this word another. God has given us another heart but it is not physical. It's not literally another heart[/size]. God did not literally give us a heart transplant when we were asleep at night but our same spiritual heart has taken on another form.

When God gives us another heart, does the old heart remain or does it not die??? What does Paul say about the old man? Is there two "sonbyadoptions" floating around now?

Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. 2 Cor 5:17

No, Paul says they "PASS AWAY". They no longer exist. There is not two "selfs" in existence.

Thus, in time and space, there is only ONE heart. The old is transformed and changed. Thus, the old is gone. This explanation does not apply to what Jesus discusses in the "Other Comforter", because clearly, He would ALSO remain present to the Apostles once He sent the OTHER Comforter. Thus, the Apostles would have access to TWO Comforters, TWO Advocates, TWO interceders for man in heaven.

And when we are born again meaning that we have another birth this doesn't mean that we go back in the womb as Nicodemus was joking about before his conversion. Our 2nd birth is not literal or physical but it's spiritual.

A misinterpretation of John 3. Jesus clarifies the sense means born "from above", not born "again". Jesus' words could be taken either way, until He provides the proper sense of the adverb. Nicodemus thinks the later interpretation and Jesus corrects him and gives him the proper meaning. Our birth from above makes us a new person.

THE OLD DOES NOT REMAIN!!! THERE ARE NOT TWO PERSONS, ONE CHRISTIAN AND ONE STILL PAGAN!!!

Thus, you are mis-using the term "another" and applying it to Jesus clear useage of ANOTHER COMFORTER as if He is refering to Himself. Yet, a bit of thought eliminates your application to Jesus' Words.

The Bible calls us another creature

No, it says we are a new creation, not another creature. There is not an "old me" and a "new me" in this case simultaneously in existence. This doesn't apply to Jesus' words because He is not sending Himself, as the context clearly shows. He is sending ANOTHER Person.

but this doesn't mean that we are some third person but it is us ourselves who go through this spiritual transformation/conversion and this is the same way how Jesus used the word another to talk about himself being our only Comforter in another non bodily and spiritual form. Jesus wasn't talking about a third person. He was talking about Himself in the third person like when he said the Son of Man did this and the Son of man did that and the Son of God will wake up the dead.This is how 1st century people talked.

Really? You think you are not just begging the question here?

The One and Only Mediator/Intercessor...

[/quote]

An intercessor does not = a mediator, so don't try to mix the two. Jesus is the One Mediator because HE became man, not the Holy Spirit. He MEDIATES between God and man. To intercede is to ask for something. The Greek makes this clear that there is a difference. Only Jesus is God and man and thus can mediate in the fullest sense of the word. However, to call the Christ the ONLY Intercessor based upon Paul's words is a sad attempt to ignore the very words of the context within which Paul says these words!

I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus 1 Tim 2:1-5

Again, the Bible shows you are wrong by its OWN WORDS. Paul exhorts Christians to be intercessors for the sake of others in the same context of calling Jesus our sole MEDIATOR...

Regards

 

[kingdavid]

Jesus[/size] made it clear who is our only Comforter when He said "I will not leave you comfortless:I will come to you."John 14:18Websters Bible Translation and K.J.V. but you being a trinitarian might disagree with my interpretation so let's hear from a trinitarian to help us get a better understanding about this important subject.

Francisdesales is a very well known and respected Catholic trinitarian on this Christian Forums site and is trusted by Catholics and Protestant trinitarians alike and when he speaks people listen so let us listen to him tell us what is the Greek word that was translated into Comforter.

"The Holy Spirit, the Paraclete, is a person separate and distinct from the Father and the Son, since they BOTH send the Spirit, who is another person..."

Francisdesales teaches the modern day trinitarian doctrine the one that all must abide by if they want to be considered Christian the one that is the most popular teaching in the world the one that if you don't abide by it Christian Forums will not like it, the one that says the Comforter/ Paraclete is a 3rd Person but the Truth is not always the most popular because if it was than Satan wouldn't be doing his job.

The Apostle John who was a direct witness to the Son of God Himself who walked with Jesus and talked with Him in person who learned all of Christ's teachings that never made it into the Bible, who heard Christ's famous Comforter sermon in person and had a very good understanding of Greek even though he'd never heard of english and our translation has been blinding us for hundreds and hundreds of years from the truth that John taught that Jesus Christ is our only Comforter/Paraclete.

My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate/Paraclete with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: 1st John 2:1


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the holy Ghost is BOTH the Father and the Son. for their relationship is as Jesus stated, believe me that i am in my Father...(john 14:11) however, the Father is always given the pre-eminence


just as christ was BOTH the Father and the Son manifested in the flesh but it was God in the Son. it was the both of them in the self-same person in the flesh and in the Spirit their relationship is the same but in reverse or vice-vercy.

 

[francisdesales]

the holy Ghost is BOTH the Father and the Son. for their relationship is as Jesus stated, believe me that i am in my Father...(john 14:11) however, the Father is always given the pre-eminence.

Wrong. The bible does not state that the Holy Ghost IS the Father and the Son... It clearly states (as I cite above) that the Father and Son SEND the Spirit. The Father and the Son indicate two different Persons. The very term "Father" and "Son" speaks of a relationship that exists between two.

To state "I am in the Father" does not mean there is an ontological oneness, since Christ prays that His Apostles be in the Father as He is in the Father.

I presume He did not mean that the Apostles are emantions of God.

just as christ was BOTH the Father and the Son manifested in the flesh but it was God in the Son. it was the both of them in the self-same person in the flesh and in the Spirit their relationship is the same but in reverse or vice-vercy.

Where does the Bible state that the Christ was both the Father and the Son? There is a close unity of the two, they are "in one another". But that does not necessitate they are the same.

We have already discussed this and you have not proven your innovation of Christianity. Please remain on topic.

Regards

 

[SonByAdoption]

Now, we see Jesus speaking of a Comforter Whom Jesus will send. Another person. And note that the Spirit ALSO proceeds from the Father! He has SEEN the Son from the Beginning. The Beginning, according to John 1, is literally, BEFORE CREATION. Thus, we see, after pondering, that the Spirit is indeed another Comforter sent from God.

So what do we have?

And finally, the unification of the Comforters. By saying that the "other" is sent does not mean that the original Comforter is ALSO not there. The Spirit has been there from the beginning and ALSO proceeds from the Father. Thus, the Triune God is present, Father, Son and Spirit, who comes to dwell in the inner life of man. [/color]

Regards

No No No No No No. God the Father's spirit doesn't Also proceed from Him. God the Father's spirit is the Only Thing that proceeds from Him and yes I did say thing. God's spirit is not a God or a seperate person just like your spirit is not a human or a seperate person from you.

Jesus did not make a mistake. Please take off your eternal generation goggles when you read the Bible. Jesus said He was God's only begotten not eternally begetting. Jesus said. I proceedED forth and came from God. He didn't say I'm eternally proceeding from God. Did Jesus somehow make a slip and stumble on his words and confuse his tenses or did John when He wrote the Bible being moved by the Spirit of Christ our only comforter. Did Jesus who said that salvation is of the Jews and Paul that said that Jews were given the oracles of God mean that we've got it wrong but don't worry because there is going to be some gentiles who come around between 325 and 400 A.D. that are going to correct our Jewish Heriesis such as Sabbath worship and One God and One Son and resting peacefully in the grave until Jesus ressurects us. Do Jews look at God's spirit moving on the face of the water and think wow there goes the third person of the Holy Chatolic Trinity?

Jesus said I proceeded forth and came from God. I believe that's John 8:42.
Saint Francis. Please don't read this to say eternally proceeding. Please don't put words in Christ's mouth. Our Christian Church Fathers quoted this verse all the time to prove that Jesus was born before all of creation but this didn't mean that Jesus doesn't have a beginning. This doesn't mean that the Father isn't older than His Son.

Remember that Teretullian passage you quoted in that other forum from Against Praxes.

“We do indeed believe that there is only one God, but we believe that under this dispensation, or, as we say, oikonomia, there is also a Son of this one only God, his Word, who proceeded from him and through whom all things were made and without whom nothing was made.†(Against Praxeas 2, A. D. 216)

Please don't misconstrue Teretullian's words. Please notice he said. The Word proceeded past tense Proceeded from him. Not eternally proceeding from him. Teretullian did not believe in eternal generation. He'd never even heard of it because satan hadn't even invented that doctrine yet. If you look on the Chatolic online encyclopedia. Look up Teretullian and you will see that he believe there was a time when there was no Son. Look it up for you self. I'm telling you the truth.

Novatian [235 AD] wrote:
“the Father also precedes Him [Jesus]... Because it is essential that He who knows no beginning must go before Him who has a beginning; even as He is the less as knowing that He is in Him, having an origin because He is born... He, then, when the Father willed it, proceeded from the Father, and He who was in the Father came forth from the Father.†(Treatise on the Trinity 31, A.D. 235),

 

[francisdesales]

No No No No No No. God the Father's spirit doesn't Also proceed from Him. God the Father's spirit is the Only Thing that proceeds from Him and yes I did say thing. God's spirit is not a God or a seperate person just like your spirit is not a human or a seperate person from you.

Jesus did not make a mistake. Please take off your eternal generation goggles when you read the Bible. Jesus said He was God's only begotten not eternally begetting. Jesus said. I proceedED forth and came from God.

My friend, you have contradicted yourself. Usually, this happens in superficial pondering of the Word of God. Perhaps you are beginning to see why the Church took many years to figure out God's Word on the relationship between the Father and the Son...

First, "no,no,no... God the Father's Spirit is the Only Thing that proceeds from Him"
And then "Jesus said, I proceeded forth and came from God"...

:gah

Jesus is NOT the Spirit of God, since during Jesus' baptism, they appear on the scene separately. In addition, Jesus says HE will SEND the Spirit - ANOTHER Comforter. Not Himself.

The rest of the post discusses eternal generation, which is off topic, so I won't address. I think we should rather establish that you are confused on what you actually believe, since you contradict yourself on What proceeds from God, whether it is eternally proceeding or not is inconsequential to the topic...

Regards

 

[kingdavid]

the holy Ghost is BOTH the Father and the Son. for their relationship is as Jesus stated, believe me that i am in my Father...(john 14:11) however, the Father is always given the pre-eminence.

Wrong. The bible does not state that the Holy Ghost IS the Father and the Son... It clearly states (as I cite above) that the Father and Son SEND the Spirit. The Father and the Son indicate two different Persons. The very term "Father" and "Son" speaks of a relationship that exists between two.


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that is what i am saying. there is BOTH the father and Son but they are not seperate from each other. Christ dwelled in the Father in the Form of the Spirit or Holy Ghost and when they were manifest in the flesh, God dwelled in the Son. you can not have one without the other. as the scripture states he who hath the Father hath the Son also and in another scripture it states he who hath the "doctrine" of christ hath BOTH(no trinity doctrine or oneness doctrine) the Father and the Son.


the scripture states that God sent His Son but did that mean God himself did not come also? christ was both God and the Son in the self same person but you didn't see 2, but only one

 

[kingdavid]

Jesus is NOT the Spirit of God, since during Jesus' baptism, they appear on the scene separately. In addition, Jesus says HE will SEND the Spirit - ANOTHER Comforter. Not Himself.


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no, jesus said he would pray the father to send another comforter but nevertheless, i will not leave you comfortless, i will come unto you!

just because God sends the Spirit does not mean God doesn't come himself with His Son. it is the Both of them in the form of the Holy ghost. they are not seperate from each other, the Father and the Son.

 

[francisdesales]

There is BOTH the father and Son but they are not seperate from each other.

Trinitarians believe that you cannot separate the Three Persons in a human manner. When the Son is sent, the Father and Spirit are also present. He is sent in the Divine Economy, the Son is indeed active, but within the Godhead, the Son is not sent anywhere, as the Three are One God.

The Three are distinct not by Being or Essence, but by origin, by relationship. The Father is the Father, from Him, the Son is generated. And so forth. It is not vice versus. This is Theology, discussing the Divinity of God.

However, as Tertullian and many others state, there is also a science of "Economy", God's actions in the world. The Scriptures often refer to this when it discusses "Sending". The Spirit is sent. The Son is sent. The Father is not sent. But the Three are indeed present during the sending. When Jesus says He will send the OTHER Comforter, He says HE will ALSO be there. And by other Scripture passages, we know that the Father will be there, as well, since the Father and Son are also linked.

We call the work of Economy "Appropriation". In other words, we attribute to the Son the work of Redemption. However, the Spirit and the Father were also involved. We attribute creation to the Father, but as Scriptures note, it is through the Son that creation came into existence, by the power of the Spirit. And of course, sanctification is not ONLY a work of the Holy Spirit...

Christ dwelled in the Father in the Form of the Spirit or Holy Ghost and when they were manifest in the flesh, God dwelled in the Son.

You are confusing spiritual form with a proper name "Holy Spirit"...

Angels are also in spiritual form, but they are not God's Spirit. You must take this to heart as you read Scriptures.

you can not have one without the other. as the scripture states he who hath the Father hath the Son also and in another scripture it states he who hath the "doctrine" of christ hath BOTH(no trinity doctrine or oneness doctrine) the Father and the Son.

The Father and Son are so unified, having the exact same essence, that one CANNOT have One without the Other. However, Scripture is clear to distinguish between the two relationships by the use of the word "Father" and "Son". One is not both. A relationship REQUIRES two different persons. A Father is not a Son to himself...

the scripture states that God sent His Son but did that mean God himself did not come also? christ was both God and the Son in the self same person but you didn't see 2, but only one

Yes, as I state above. When God sent His Son, the Father also came with His Spirit. The ENTIRE God comes to us - and THAT, my friend, is THE CORE of the Gospel. Not Jesus dying on the cross, but that GOD COMES TO US!!! Can you imagine the wonder of that?

Regards

 

[SonByAdoption]

No No No No No No. God the Father's spirit doesn't Also proceed from Him. God the Father's spirit is the Only Thing that proceeds from Him and yes I did say thing. God's spirit is not a God or a seperate person just like your spirit is not a human or a seperate person from you.

Jesus did not make a mistake. Please take off your eternal generation goggles when you read the Bible. Jesus said He was God's only begotten not eternally begetting. Jesus said. I proceedED forth and came from God.

My friend, you have contradicted yourself. Usually, this happens in superficial pondering of the Word of God. Perhaps you are beginning to see why the Church took many years to figure out God's Word on the relationship between the Father and the Son...

First, "no,no,no... God the Father's Spirit is the Only Thing that proceeds from Him"
And then "Jesus said, I proceeded forth and came from God"...

:gah

Jesus is NOT the Spirit of God, since during Jesus' baptism, they appear on the scene separately. In addition, Jesus says HE will SEND the Spirit - ANOTHER Comforter. Not Himself.

The rest of the post discusses eternal generation, which is off topic, so I won't address. I think we should rather establish that you are confused on what you actually believe, since you contradict yourself on What proceeds from God, whether it is eternally proceeding or not is inconsequential to the topic...

Regards

I proceeded forth and came from God as in it happened in the past and it is finished now.
The spirit of the Father proceeds from Him as in it its happening in the present and is continuing to happen.

I have not contradicted myself. Saint Francis please be honest with what you read. Please see that proceeded and proceeds are different tenseses signifying different time periods meaning they are not simotamiously happening at the same time. We can even go into the greek language since you are accusing me of a superfical reading. Proceeded in John 8:42 á¼ÂξέÃÂÇομαι ekporeuomai
proceeds in John 15:26 á¼ÂκÀοÃÂεÃÂομαι ekporeuomai

You are accusing me of going off topic but you are the one that brought it up when you contradicted the word of God by saying that the spirit ALSO proceeds from God meaning that there is perhaps something else proceeding out of God.

God and His Son are two separate persons and two separate beings with two separate forms and two separate spirits yes two separate substances and guess what they have two separate ages. Yes the Father is older than His Son.

Holy Spirit is not a name or a title. Holy is an adjective. That's why it reads pneuma hagios or spirit holy.You have a human spirit. God the Father has a Holy Spirit. His Son has His own Holy Spirit. We have both the spirit of the Father in our hearts and the spirit of Christ in our hearts but only the spirit of Christ is our comforter because He is the only one who was tempted in all points just like we are yet without sin and that's why He's the only one who can comfort us because He's the one who went through what we went through and the Bible says He's the one who is able to SUCCOR/Help/Comfort us. He's our only comforter.

 

[francisdesales]

I have not contradicted myself. Saint Francis please be honest with what you read. Please see that proceeded and proceeds are different tenseses signifying different time periods meaning they are not simotamiously happening at the same time. We can even go into the greek language since you are accusing me of a superfical reading. Proceeded in John 8:42 á¼ÂξέÃÂÇομαι ekporeuomai
proceeds in John 15:26 á¼ÂκÀοÃÂεÃÂομαι ekporeuomai

You are accusing me of going off topic but you are the one that brought it up when you contradicted the word of God by saying that the spirit ALSO proceeds from God meaning that there is perhaps something else proceeding out of God.

You are funny. Let me laugh. :biglaugh

Ok... I'm done.

Now, I will repeat what I said before...

The rest of the post {your post, not mine} discusses eternal generation, which is off topic, so I won't address. I think we should rather establish that you are confused on what you actually believe, since you contradict yourself on What proceeds from God, whether it is eternally proceeding or not is inconsequential to the topic...

I accuse you of going off topic. Again. And now I accuse you of causing me to laugh because you are in denial.

By ME saying "the Spirit also proceeds" has NOTHING TO DO WITH ETERNAL PROCESSION, which is yet again what you are trying to change the subject to. Now. Be honest with yourself...

You think I am a green horn and can't figure out that you are trying to change the subject? No, I am not going to let you turn the tables on me. Address the dual procession, without any discussion on whether it is still happening or not. I didn't say anything about eternal procession in this thread. I will again remind you that YOU claimed there is only ONE Comforter, ONE procession from the Father, when the Scriptures CLEARLY AS DAY say there is ANOTHER...

This thread is about whether there is only one or another comforter that exists simultaneously with the first comforter...

To make it easy, a person doesn't say "I am going to send you ANOTHER COMFORTER" while referring to himself. The very obvious exegesis is that there is a DIFFERENT Comforter that will be sent by the FIRST Comforter. It is only your eigesis that reads INTO the Scripture what you have already invented that comes up with this sad state of affairs and more false teachings, like the nonsense that the Father and the Son are two different Beings...

Regards

 

[kingdavid]

Christ dwelled in the Father in the Form of the Spirit or Holy Ghost and when they were manifest in the flesh, God dwelled in the Son.

you can not have one without the other. as the scripture states he who hath the Father hath the Son also and in another scripture it states he who hath the "doctrine" of christ hath BOTH(no trinity doctrine or oneness doctrine) the Father and the Son.[/quote]

The Father and Son are so unified, having the exact same essence, that one CANNOT have One without the Other. However, Scripture is clear to distinguish between the two relationships by the use of the word "Father" and "Son". One is not both. A relationship REQUIRES two different persons. A Father is not a Son to himself...francis
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you must be misunderstanding me because i am saying their is Both of them but they are not seperate from each other. he was a dual person or God and christ were yoked together in the self-same person.

or as jesus stated, believe me that I am in my Father and the Father in me.
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the scripture states that God sent His Son but did that mean God himself did not come also? christ was both God and the Son in the self same person but you didn't see 2, but only one[/quote]

Yes, as I state above. When God sent His Son, the Father also came with His Spirit. The ENTIRE God comes to us - and THAT, my friend, is THE CORE of the Gospel. Not Jesus dying on the cross, but that GOD COMES TO US!!! Can you imagine the wonder of that?

Regards[/quote]

 

[francisdesales]

Please use the "quote" button when you post. I cannot follow what you are saying.


Christ dwelled in the Father in the Form of the Spirit or Holy Ghost and when they were manifest in the flesh, God dwelled in the Son.

you can not have one without the other. as the scripture states he who hath the Father hath the Son also and in another scripture it states he who hath the "doctrine" of christ hath BOTH(no trinity doctrine or oneness doctrine) the Father and the Son.

The Father and Son are so unified, having the exact same essence, that one CANNOT have One without the Other. However, Scripture is clear to distinguish between the two relationships by the use of the word "Father" and "Son". One is not both. A relationship REQUIRES two different persons. A Father is not a Son to himself...francis
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you must be misunderstanding me because i am saying their is Both of them but they are not seperate from each other. he was a dual person or God and christ were yoked together in the self-same person.

or as jesus stated, believe me that I am in my Father and the Father in me.
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the scripture states that God sent His Son but did that mean God himself did not come also? christ was both God and the Son in the self same person but you didn't see 2, but only one[/quote]

Yes, as I state above. When God sent His Son, the Father also came with His Spirit. The ENTIRE God comes to us - and THAT, my friend, is THE CORE of the Gospel. Not Jesus dying on the cross, but that GOD COMES TO US!!! Can you imagine the wonder of that?

 

[SonByAdoption]

My dear friend Saint Francis. I hope you've had a great 7th day Sabbath weekend and also great Sunday first day of the week. Thank you as always for witnessing and sharing trying to convince me and others of the errors of abandoning the orthodox catholic faith. I aplogize deeply that I have not been responding to your posts in a more timely manner. Thank you for always being respectful and setting a good example.

"These words from Jesus clearly show ANOTHER Comforter exists, one who existed FROM THE BEGINNING (as my next citation shows), making your thesis dead on arrival... ""He has SEEN the Son from the Beginning. The Beginning, according to John 1, is literally, BEFORE CREATION.""The Spirit has been there from the beginning and ALSO proceeds from the Father."

I'm afraid you have given a slight misinterpretation of the Bible passage you have provided. Jesus is continually talking to the disciples using the pronoun YOU 3 times consistently referring to the disciples and not to some third being.

"When the Helper comes, whom I will send to YOU from the Father, that is the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father," clearly Jesus is talking to the disciples and He continues to talk to them "He will testify about Me, and YOU will testify ALSO, because YOU have been with Me FROM THE BEGINNING.""...These things I did not say to YOU AT THE BEGINNING, because I was with YOU. "John 15:26,27&16:4 New American Standard Bible.

Jesus talks about 2 testifying about Him 1st this Comforter who will come and the 2nd the disciples who have been with Him from the BEGINNING OF HIS MINISTRY.

Here is two other verses that prove that FROM THE BEGINNING in your Bible passage is talking about the BEGINNING of HIS MINISTRY and not the BEGINNING OF CREATION"

Even as they delivered them unto US, which FROM THE BEGINNING were eyewitnesses, and ministers of the word;" Luke 1:2
"That which was FROM THE BEGINNING, which WE have heard, which WE have seen with OUR eyes, which WE have looked upon, and OUR hands have handled, of the Word of life;"1st John 1:1

I don't think that you were deliberately trying to lead people astray in your slight misinterpretation of John 15:26,27. I'm sure it was an honest mistake. You saw the phrase from the beginning and assumed it was talking about the creation and reasoned that He could not be talking to the disciples well let me please remind you that the Bible only talks about two beings preexisting the beginning of creation. Ho Theos and Ho Logos who was also Divine. Two divine beings and only Two. And again just because two beings pre-existed creation. This does not mean that they are the same age. The Father is the True Father or Procreator. The Son is His true Son or Male Offspring.

"For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,"Acts 4:27

Only two beings existed before creation "What is His name and what is His Son's name"Proverbs 30:4, "Yahweh Possessed me in the beginning of His way,before His works of old" Proverbs 8:22 Our Church Father's quoted this Bible verse many times to prove that Jesus was born before creation. "Ho Logos was in the Arche with Ho Theos"John 1:1
"God who created all things by Christ Jesus" Ephesians 3:9 "God...His Son by whom also He made the worlds"Hebrews 1:1,2.

Bible Believing Jews Old Testament and New Testament only worshiped two Divine Beings and they'd never heard of any Third being.The Trinity is a Gentile creation.Who is this Holy Spirit supposed to be anyway in the Family of God. Is he the Son's uncle? Or is he perhaps the Son's twin brother as in the Hindu Trinity Brahma, the creator, Vishnu, the preserver and Shiva the destroyer. Vishnu is supposed to be Christ and he was incarnated his name was Krishna.

Listen, in Satan's Pagan trinities He can get worship openly Shiva the destroyer in India. But Satan invented the Christian Trinity so he could be worshiped by Christians more subtly. It breaks my heart every time I go to my Seventh Day Adventist Church and they are praying to the Holy Spirit and worshiping it and singing songs to it even though we have no Biblical example for doing this because I know who they are really worshiping when they are sending up prayers to an unknown god [this third person]that the Bible knows nothing about.

 

[SonByAdoption]

My Dear friend King David. I'm so sorry for not writing you sooner. I was not playing favorites. I was lazy only wanting to write one person. Please forgive me. Thank you so much for coming. I've read one of your posts that you started before about Teritullian in church history. Pretty impressive. I'm honored that you've come.

the holy Ghost is BOTH the Father and the Son.

The Holy Spirit is the Father's Mind but it is not limited to His Divine Form like our minds our limited to our human forms. His spirit proceeds from Him like the sunshine proceeds from a star and the spirit/mind flows to His Son and He combines it with His own Holy Spirit and sends it to the believers but even though we have both spirits the spirit of the Father and the spirit of Christ in our hearts Christ is our only comforter because He's the only one who was tempted in all points like we are and therefore knows how to comfort us.

for their relationship is as Jesus stated, believe me that i am in my Father...(john 14:11) however, the Father is always given the pre-eminence

Their Father/Son relationship is a true and genuine and literal one. Before creation The Father reproduced another Divine being out of His own substance , His Son and they are equal in nature but the Father is older than His Son and this is why His Omnipotent and Self Existent Son is Voluntarily subject to His Father ever since His birth and will be throughout eternity.

The Father has a superior position in heaven for He is King and His Son is the Prince.
just as christ was BOTH the Father and the Son manifested in the flesh but it was God in the Son. it was the both of them in the self-same person in the flesh and in the Spirit their relationship is the same but in reverse or vice-vercy.

The Omniscent God the Father knew that when He created the Universe Perfect but that sin would be found in one of the angels even though God didn't create sin and He knew that this angel would infect the humans and God knew that Him dieing would be the only cure to save humankind but there was a big problem. God can't die. He's the only being in the universe who has absolute immortality. God knew that He would have to be tempted and tested in all things that humans are tested in but how can someone that knows the end from the beginning be tested. So God the Father knew that He could never accomplish these things so He gave birth to a Son in eternity who would be able to accomplish these things. The Son is just like the Father in every way and when He gave up His divine powers omnipotence and omniscient and became a human he did everything the Father would have done if the Father would have been able to become a human. This is How God was manifest in the Flesh not meaning that they are the same God. But that the Son is so much like His Father.

Because Jesus said that my Father is in me and I am in the Father doesn't mean that The Father and the Son are the same person or the same God or part of some 3in1 trinity. Us Christians say the same thing. We are in Christ and Christ is in us. The Spirit of Christ is in me. Me and Christ are one. But this doesn't mean that we are claiming to literally be the same person as Christ just like Jesus was not claiming to be the same person as the Father when He said me and the Father are one. Jesus Christ was not a trinitarian. He never said that the Holy Spirit dwells in me. He said the Father dwells in me. Also he never said Me and the Holy Spirt are one.

KingDavid
I hope you have a blessed week. Thank you so much for coming to my post. I really mean it. It would be kind of boring if it was just me and Francis. I enjoy your unique perspective and look forward to hearing more.

 

[francisdesales]

My dear friend Saint Francis. I hope you've had a great 7th day Sabbath weekend and also great Sunday first day of the week. Thank you as always for witnessing and sharing trying to convince me and others of the errors of abandoning the orthodox catholic faith. I aplogize deeply that I have not been responding to your posts in a more timely manner. Thank you for always being respectful and setting a good example.

And to you, as well. When it is all said and done, I hope we can at least be a good example for others on how to conduct proper discussion in apologetics.

"These words from Jesus clearly show ANOTHER Comforter exists, one who existed FROM THE BEGINNING (as my next citation shows), making your thesis dead on arrival... ""He has SEEN the Son from the Beginning. The Beginning, according to John 1, is literally, BEFORE CREATION.""The Spirit has been there from the beginning and ALSO proceeds from the Father."

I'm afraid you have given a slight misinterpretation of the Bible passage you have provided. Jesus is continually talking to the disciples using the pronoun YOU 3 times consistently referring to the disciples and not to some third being.

"When the Helper comes, whom I will send to YOU from the Father, that is the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father," clearly Jesus is talking to the disciples and He continues to talk to them "He will testify about Me, and YOU will testify ALSO, because YOU have been with Me FROM THE BEGINNING.""...These things I did not say to YOU AT THE BEGINNING, because I was with YOU. "John 15:26,27&16:4 New American Standard Bible.

???? Of course Jesus is speaking to the Apostles! And He says He will send to THEM another Comforter. How much simpler can this get??? The OTHER Comforter will testify of Jesus and so will the Apostles. You are clearly missing the obvious English translation of this passage.

I will send to you Another Comforter.

Jesus will send to the Apostles a DIFFERENT Comforter, another one. HE will send THIS OTHER One.

Really. Be honest. Just admit you are wrong and move on. There is really nothing more to add here. The clear interpretation by anyone without a bias mind against the Trinity will see this passage as an ordinary promise that Jesus will send a different comforter to the Apostles at a later time...

Jesus talks about 2 testifying about Him 1st this Comforter who will come and the 2nd the disciples who have been with Him from the BEGINNING OF HIS MINISTRY.

It is true that the Apostles testify to the Christ. And this is ONLY because the Spirit within the Apostles...

Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and [that] no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost. 1 Cor 12:3

This same Spirit Christ promised to the Apostles during the Last Supper. He sent them on the feast that we celebrated yesterday, Pentecost, during which the Holy Spirit came as tongues of flames upon the disciples of Christ gathered in the upper room.

In addition, John writes that the testimony of God is GREATER than man, and gives the proof of God's testimony of the Christ...

This is he that came by water and blood, [even] Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth. For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one. 1 John 5:6-8

Note, the three are one. The Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost... The Father sent the Word in the flesh, and then, the Father and Word sent the Holy Ghost, the OTHER Comforter, at Pentecost, to serve as the Church's means of sanctification and vivication in the world today.

Here is two other verses that prove that FROM THE BEGINNING in your Bible passage is talking about the BEGINNING of HIS MINISTRY and not the BEGINNING OF CREATION"

Even as they delivered them unto US, which FROM THE BEGINNING were eyewitnesses, and ministers of the word;" Luke 1:2
"That which was FROM THE BEGINNING, which WE have heard, which WE have seen with OUR eyes, which WE have looked upon, and OUR hands have handled, of the Word of life;"1st John 1:1

These verses do not prove anything, since they do not address the beginning of the Word, but the beginning of the Word MADE FLESH, EYEWITNESSED by man. Naturally, no man eyewitnessed the generation of the Word from the Father.

I will also remind you that you seem to have an inability to stay on topic, since we are not speaking of eternal generation. Again. I ask you to concentrate on how many Comforters have been sent by the Father. One or Two.

I don't think that you were deliberately trying to lead people astray in your slight misinterpretation of John 15:26,27. I'm sure it was an honest mistake. You saw the phrase from the beginning and assumed it was talking about the creation and reasoned that He could not be talking to the disciples well let me please remind you that the Bible only talks about two beings preexisting the beginning of creation.

Well, that's a relief that I am not being accused of being maliciously dishonest... :P

But again, you stray from the topic. I would be happy to discuss this other topic elsewhere, but it is clogging up this thread with unnecessary discussion that adds nothing to how many Comforters God sent to the Apostles...

Bible Believing Jews Old Testament and New Testament only worshiped two Divine Beings and they'd never heard of any Third being.

Where is your evidence that the New Testament Christians only worshipped TWO Divine Beings???

I have never heard of such a thing. There is only ONE divine Being. God. This God has several relationships existing within Himself, what we call "Persons". The Father, the Son, and the Spirit.

The Trinity is a Gentile creation.Who is this Holy Spirit supposed to be anyway in the Family of God. Is he the Son's uncle?[/size] Or is he perhaps the Son's twin brother as in the Hindu Trinity Brahma, the creator, Vishnu, the preserver and Shiva the destroyer. Vishnu is supposed to be Christ and he was incarnated his name was Krishna.

Listen, in Satan's Pagan trinities He can get worship openly Shiva the destroyer in India. But Satan invented the Christian Trinity so he could be worshiped by Christians more subtly. It breaks my heart every time I go to my Seventh Day Adventist Church and they are praying to the Holy Spirit and worshiping it and singing songs to it even though we have no Biblical example for doing this because I know who they are really worshiping when they are sending up prayers to an unknown god [this third person]that the Bible knows nothing about.

[/quote]

None of this sort of silliness regarding paganism or Jesus' uncle will get the correct answer. The Bible cleary speaks of the Holy Spirit as a Person distinct but not separate from God. We worship God and when we realize that God's Spirit is worthy of worship, being God, we worship the Holy Spirit, since it is THROUGH Him that we are able to say "Jesus is Lord". He is our OTHER Comforter that our Lord sent to us.

Be Comforted that the Spirit grants us such a grace, and be wary of making your comments about God's Spirit...

And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost it shall not be forgiven. Luke 12:10

Clearly, the Son of Man is not the Holy Ghost here. And does one blaspheme against someone OTHER than God and it is NOT FORGIVEN??? Again, I posit that the Church has had plenty of time to ponder these verses and have gotten it right, being the pillar and foundation of the truth due to this same Holy Ghost.

Thanks for your time. I will keep you in my prayers.

Regards

 

[SonByAdoption]

Maybe many people are confused about what the Holy Spirit is because they are confused about what the word spirit means. Bible writers did not believe in ghosts. A disembodied being floating around after death thinking and reasoning and haunting people. So they when they think of the word Holy Spirit this is what they think God has. A disembodied Divine being floating around distinct from the Father and the Son and they can talk to Him and reason with Him because He’s one of them and they can see each other. This seems like to me as if a man could talk to his shadow and his shadow could reason back with him and had his own mind and personality.

But spirit does not mean that at all. Spirit is our mind our personality our character our inner self who we really are our identity and this spirit/mind will be resting unconscious in heaven until God puts our spirits or minds into our glorified bodies when Christ wakes us up at His second coming. Because God did not create human spirits to be able to consiously exist without bodies.
Spirit means the same thing when referreing to the Father or His Son.The Holy Spirit of the Father is His Mind His innerself. His character. His identity but it is not a third being. And the Holy Spirit of Christ is His Mind innerself/ identity character who He is and it is not some disembodied third being.

Saint Francis who is a descendent of Adam who was created in the image of God the Father and His Son has a human form and Saint Francis has a human spirit/mind.
God the Father who together with His Son created man in His image has a Divine Form and God the Father has a Divine Spirit/Mind.

After His birth before all of creation the Preincarnate Christ had His own Divine Form and His own Divine Spirit. After His incarnation Christ had a human form and a Divine Spirit but He no longer had His Divine Form and He never ever had a human spirit nor was it ever prophesied in any of the Messianic scriptures that He would ever have one.
“Therefore, when He comes into the world, He says, " SACRIFICE AND OFFERING YOU HAVE NOT DESIRED, BUT A BODY YOU HAVE PREPARED FOR ME;†. Hebrews 10:5 N.A..S.B

Holy Spirit is not a name or a Title of any third being. Holy is an adjective describing the mind of God the Father. Sinners have a sinful spirit or a sinful mind.
God the Father has a Holy Spirit or a Holy Mind. And the first 30 years during Christ’s incarnation Christ had His own personal Holy Mind. The Holy Mind of the Son of God before He ever got baptized with His Father’s Holy Mind at the beginning of His earthly ministry.

“And immediately when Jesus perceived in his spirit that they so reasoned within themselves, he said unto them, Why reason ye these things in your hearts?†.†Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:†Let this mind be in you, which was also in Chris Jesus:†Mark 2:8; Philipians 2:5

 

[francisdesales]

Maybe many people are confused about what the Holy Spirit[/size] is because they are confused about what the word spirit means. Bible writers did not believe in ghosts.

Not only are you wrong (as the Apostles thought they were seeing a GHOST when they saw Jesus walking towards them on water, after the crucifixion when witnesses saw ghosts rising from graves in Matthew's gospel AND when the Apostles first saw the Risen Lord), but you are off topic. Yet again...

This discussion is about "another comforter" vs. "one comforter". I have given you clear Scripture to indicate that Jesus Himself said HE would send ANOTHER. Not HImself. Another. Yours is just further smoke screens, and I don't see the point in pursuing this further. Scripture proves your thesis incorrect, plain and simple, and you have had plenty of chances to explain it. Unfortunately, your strategy hinges upon pretending the verse doesn't exist and changing the subject...

Holy Spirit is not a name or a Title of any third being. Holy is an adjective describing the mind of God the Father. Sinners have a sinful spirit or a sinful mind.

Again, Scriptures prove this wrong. I am sorry to have to tell you, but Christ clearly tells us He is sending another Comforter. Not Himself. The Holy Spirit intercedes for us, and this is not another name for Christ. Only persons can intercede, not a "force". In addition, the Bible doesn't make the connection that Jesus and the Spirit are one in the same Person.

Regards