Jesus on Non-Violence

[Butch5]

I addressed it in both long and short form. Don't confuse my addressing of the issue with your refusal to accept it.

How convenient.

 

[reba]

Drop the personal attacks....reba

Jas 3:8 But the tongue can no man tame; it is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison.

Jas 3:14 But if ye have bitter envying and strife in your hearts, glory not, and lie not against the truth.

We need to curb our tongues the message of non-violence is lost in angry words

 

[Stormcrow]

"He who shall introduce into public affairs the principles of primitive Christianity will change the face of the world." Benjamin Franklin

"I have lived, Sir, a long time and the longer I live, the more I see of this truth - that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice, is it probable that an entire empire can rise without His aid? We have been assured, Sir, in the sacred writings that except the Lord build the house, they labor in vain to build it.'...I firmly believe this." Benjamin Franklin

"it is the duty of all nations to acknowledge the providence of Almighty God, to obey His will, to be grateful for His benefits, and humbly to implore His protection and favor." George Washington

Oh, eternal and everlasting God, direct my thoughts, words and work. Wash away my sins in the immaculate blood of the Lamb and purge my heart by Thy Holy Spirit. Daily, frame me more and more in the likeness of Thy son, Jesus Christ, that living in Thy fear, and dying in Thy favor, I may in thy appointed time obtain the resurrection of the justified unto eternal life. Bless, O Lord, the whole race of mankind and let the world be filled with the knowledge of Thee and Thy son, Jesus Christ. George Washington

True religion affords to government its surest support. George Washington

“Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable.” George Washington

The idea that America was not founded as a Christian nation and that these men - the founders - were not Christians is a lie about the nation and slanders these men.

 

[Tri Unity]

We have clear scriptural guidelines to avoid participating in war (avenging) or governments (do not conform). We have NO scriptural guidelines to participate in war or politics. Those who desire to disobey Christ are holding on to their 'old man', their sinful nature. The disobedient want to find grounds to maintain their sinful lives and desires and still follow Christ. This is the rich man with too many possessions. This has always been done and will always be done until at the end-times Christ will destroy all these nations. Those who have sided with the kingdoms of this world risk being destroyed along with them. Nothing has changed.

 

[Butch5]

"He who shall introduce into public affairs the principles of primitive Christianity will change the face of the world." Benjamin Franklin

"I have lived, Sir, a long time and the longer I live, the more I see of this truth - that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice, is it probable that an entire empire can rise without His aid? We have been assured, Sir, in the sacred writings that except the Lord build the house, they labor in vain to build it.'...I firmly believe this." Benjamin Franklin

"it is the duty of all nations to acknowledge the providence of Almighty God, to obey His will, to be grateful for His benefits, and humbly to implore His protection and favor." George Washington

Oh, eternal and everlasting God, direct my thoughts, words and work. Wash away my sins in the immaculate blood of the Lamb and purge my heart by Thy Holy Spirit. Daily, frame me more and more in the likeness of Thy son, Jesus Christ, that living in Thy fear, and dying in Thy favor, I may in thy appointed time obtain the resurrection of the justified unto eternal life. Bless, O Lord, the whole race of mankind and let the world be filled with the knowledge of Thee and Thy son, Jesus Christ. George Washington

True religion affords to government its surest support. George Washington

“Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable.†George Washington

The idea that America was not founded as a Christian nation and that these men - the founders - were not Christians is a lie about the nation and slanders these men.

Dude,

A few statements doesn't mean they were Christians. Ben Franklin was a Deist. While President, George Washington attended Church publically, however, even his pastor could not say for certain that he was a Christian. He didn't take communion and when he was confronted about this by his pastor he simply left the service. You can get quotes from Preseidents throughout history that doens't mean they were Christians. Look at the man's writings.

Letter from Dr. James Abercrombie, 1831
Asst. Minister at Christ Church and St. Peter’s in Philadelphia
In reply to a letter about Washington’s Religious Practices​

“With respect to the inquiry you make I can only state the following facts; that, as pastor of the Episcopal church, observing that, on sacramental Sundays, Gen. Washington, immediately after the desk and pulpit services, went out with the greater part of the congregation -- always leaving Mrs. Washington with the other communicants -- she invariably being one -- I considered it my duty in a sermon on Public Worship, to state the unhappy tendency of example, particularly of those in elevated stations who uniformly turned their backs upon the celebration of the Lord's Supper. I acknowledge the remark was intended for the President; and as such he received it.
“A few days after, in conversation with, I believe, a senator of the United States, he told me he had dined the day before with the President, who in the course of conversation at table said that on the preceding Sunday he had re-ceived a very just reproof from the pulpit for always leaving the church be-fore the administration of the Sacrament; that he honored the preacher for his integrity and candor; that he had never sufficiently considered the influence of his example, and that he would not again give cause for the repetition of the reproof; and that, as he had never been a communicant, were he to be-come one then it would be imputed to an ostentatious display of religious zeal arising altogether from his elevated station. Accordingly, he never afterwards came on the morning of sacramental Sunday, though at other times he was a constant attendant in the morning.â€

 

[Tri Unity]

The idea that America was not founded as a Christian nation and that these men - the founders - were not Christians is a lie about the nation and slanders these men.

You are more concerned about "slandering" these non-christians than you are about slandering the Early Church Fathers who were taught by the Apostles. You have slandered the apostolic fathers frequently.

 

[Stormcrow]

A few statements doesn't mean they were Christians.

I've seen more from them to convince me of their relationship with Christ than I have from you or some others here. 2

While President, George Washington attended Church publically, however, even his pastor could not say for certain that he was a Christian.

Many of the people who saw Jesus didn't believe He was who He said He was. Why should I take their word for it? Why should I take your word for it?

Look at George Washington's diary during the time he wasn't president and notice the Lack of any mention of church in his Sunday entries.

So church attendance is the test for one's faith in Christ?

Calling yourself a christian because you go to church is like calling yourself a car because you're standing in a garage.

You seem to have a very warped sense of what it means to be both a Christian and a citizen.

 

[Stormcrow]

You have slandered the apostolic fathers frequently.

I said they were wrong about apostolic eschatology, even going so far as to note that understanding apostolic eschatology is not a requirement for salvation. I have never once said anywhere that they were not Christians, as you have just done regarding the founders of this nation:

You are more concerned about "slandering" these non-christians...

 

[Butch5]

​

​

Benjamin Franklin ​

Excerpts from​

On George Whitfield​

[concerning the orphans George Whitfield say in Georgia]:
The sight of their miserable situation inspired the benevolent Heart of Mr Whiteficid with the Idea of building an Orphan House there, in which they might be supported and edu-cated. Returning northward he preach’d up this Charity, & made large Collections; for his Eloquence had a wonderful Power over the Hearts and Purses of his Hearers, of which I myself was an instance. I did not disapprove of the Design, but as Georgia was then desti-tute of Materials & Workmen, and it was propos’d to send them from Philadelphia at a great Expense, I thought it would have been better to have built the House here & Brought the Children to it. I advis’d him of this, but he was resolute in his first Project, and he re-jected my Counsel. Thereupon I refus’d to contribute. However, I happened soon after to attend one of his Sermons, in the Course of which I perceived he intended to finish with a Collection. So I silently resolved he would get nothing from me. I had in my Pocket a Handful of Copper Money, three or four silver Dollars, and five Gold sovereigns. As he proceeded, I began to soften, and decided to give him the Copper coins. Another Stroke of his Oratory made ashamed of that, and so I decided to give the Silver as well. But he
finish’d so admirably, that I empty’d my entire Pocket into the Collection plate—gold and all.
[Some people were concerned] that he might use these Collections for his own private bene-fit. But I was intimately acquainted with him, (being employ’d in printing his Sermons and Journals, ), and I never had the least Suspicion of his Integrity. Rather, I am to this day de-cidedly of the Opinion that he was in all his Conduct, a perfectly honest Man. And I think my Testimony in his Favor ought to carry more Weight, as we had no religious Connection. He indeed sometimes used to pray for my Conversion, but he never had the Satisfaction of seeing his Prayers heard.Ours was a mere civil Friendship, sincere on both Sides, and it lasted until his Death.

 

[Butch5]

I've seen more from them to convince me of their relationship with Christ than I have from you or some others here. 2

Many of the people who saw Jesus didn't believe He was who He said He was. Why should I take their word for it? Why should I take your word for it?
So church attendance is the test for one's faith in Christ?

Calling yourself a christian because you go to church is like calling yourself a car because you're standing in a garage.

You seem to have a very warped sense of what it means to be both a Christian and a citizen.

The evidence is there, if you reject it it's up to you.

 

[Tri Unity]

You can get quotes from Presidents throughout history that doesn't mean they were Christians. Look at the man's writings.

Politicians have always easily fooled Christians by using biblical language in their rhetoric. Those "christians" who are natural patriots and nationalists are the first to proclaim the great virtues of these "godly men" who have simply fooled the gullible. There were exceptions to the rule. Charles Thomson was the secretary to Washington. He designed the American eagle as the American symbol, etc. He translated an excellent version of the Septuagint. I do not think Thomson was right for his involvement of politics, but that he was operating under the blind disposition and hardening that the entire church was (and still is) subjected to.

"for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness." (KJV - 2 Thess 2:11)

This "lie" was sent as a punishment to Christians by God. God did the same thing to Israel by causing a partial hardening to take place. That was what led them to adopt the religion of the Pharisees in the first place, and why the Jews, not Christians, fought against Rome during the siege of 70 AD. Now Christians have become the militant zealots that the Jews once were. These patterns were ordained. It is up to us to repent and turn away from this Pharisaic model.

 

[Stormcrow]

as we had no religious Connection.

Neither do we. There is honestly nothing I can say that draws me to your view of Christ, the church, or the kingdom. Nothing. And yet I am a Christian as I'm sure you claim to be, yet we have no religious connection whatsoever. Catholic and Protestant, dude.

He indeed sometimes used to pray for my Conversion, but he never had the Satisfaction of seeing his Prayers heard.

Assume, for a moment, I am Catholic and you are Protestant and we are both bound to the beliefs of our respective traditions. Do you think any prayer I offered on behalf of your conversion to my point of view would be heard???

There is nothing in this letter that allows for you to defame Franklin as a non-Christian! Nothing!

 

[Stormcrow]

The evidence is there, if you reject it it's up to you.

:biglol

 

[Tri Unity]

And yet I am a Christian as I'm sure you claim to be...

These under-handed remarks are what you continually try to base your arguments on. You rely on insults and demonizing..., making fun of people. If you are the only Christian among us here discussing this; why do you continually resort to defamation, insults and slander as your weapon? Is this what Christianity is? Did you learn this from the good shepherd?

 

[Butch5]

Neither do we. There is honestly nothing I can say that draws me to your view of Christ, the church, or the kingdom. Nothing. And yet I am a Christian as I'm sure you claim to be, yet we have no religious connection whatsoever. Catholic and Protestant, dude.

Not so, we both claim to be Christians

Assume, for a moment, I am Catholic and you are Protestant and we are both bound to the beliefs of our respective traditions. Do you think any prayer I offered on behalf of your conversion to my point of view would be heard???

There is nothing in this letter that allows for you to defame Franklin as a non-Christian! Nothing!

Neither of them claimed to be Catholic. It was well known that Whitfield was a Christian and Franklin said he has no religious connection with him. These are not my words they are Franklin's.

 

[Free]

I sure hope all of this has to do with the topic....

 

[Butch5]

:biglol

I've given you the words of Franklin himself.

 

[Butch5]

Politicians have always easily fooled Christians by using biblical language in their rhetoric. Those "christians" who are natural patriots and nationalists are the first to proclaim the great virtues of these "godly men" who have simply fooled the gullible. There were exceptions to the rule. Charles Thomson was the secretary to Washington. He designed the American eagle as the American symbol, etc. He translated an excellent version of the Septuagint. I do not think Thomson was right for his involvement of politics, but that he was operating under the blind disposition and hardening that the entire church was (and still is) subjected to.

"for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness." (KJV - 2 Thess 2:11)

This "lie" was sent as a punishment to Christians by God. God did the same thing to Israel by causing a partial hardening to take place. That was what led them to adopt the religion of the Pharisees in the first place, and why the Jews, not Christians, fought against Rome during the siege of 70 AD. Now Christians have become the militant zealots that the Jews once were. These patterns were ordained. It is up to us to repent and turn away from this Pharisaic model.

Hi Tri unity,

I suspect that's why Paul told the Corinthians that there must be heresies among them that those who are approve may be made manifest.

 

[Stormcrow]

I've given you the words of Franklin himself.

So did I.

Neither of them claimed to be Catholic.

Do you not understand the use of examples or illustrations to make a point in discussion?

It was well known that Whitfield was a Christian and Franklin said he has no religious connection with him.

That's a far cry from assuming Franklin himself was not a Christian!

What an absurd leap of logic to make!2

 

[Butch5]

So did I.

But in it Franklin didn't say he was a Christian.

Do you not understand the use of examples or illustrations to make a point in discussion?

Are you avoiding the issue? Whitfield was a Christian and Franklin said they were not of the same religion.

That's a far cry from assuming Franklin himself was not a Christian!

What an absurd leap of logic to make!2

It's not an assumption nor a leap of logic. Franklin himself said he was not of the same religion as Whitlfield