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Jesus was crucified until death says Koran...

A

Apple Pie

Guest
All,

How is it that Islam denies Jesus' death upon the cross when their book of faith clearly states otherwise...?


يخرج من بين الصلب والترائب

Yakhruju min bayni alssulbi waalttara-ibi

86.7 He emerges from amidst the Cross and the grave.
 
I don't believe the Quran at all.... BUT.... where did you get that translation of 86:7?

References please
 
Gary said:
I don't believe the Quran at all.... BUT.... where did you get that translation of 86:7?

References please

Hi Gary,

The rendering is mine from exegeting the classic arabic...
 
Thanks ApplePie.

I cannot read Arabic so I have to rely on translations. The best 10 known tranlations (by both Musllims and non-Muslims) have 86:7 as:

Pickthall: That issued from between the loins and ribs.
Yusuf Ali: Proceeding from between the backbone and the ribs:
Hilali-Khan: Proceeding from between the back-bone and the ribs,
Shakir: Coming from between the back and the ribs.
Sher Ali: Which issues forth from between the loins and the breastbones.
Khalifa: From between the spine and the viscera.
Arberry: issuing between the loins and the breast-bones.
Palmer: that comes out from between the loins and the breast bones.
Rodwell: Which issue from the loins and breastbones:
Sale: issuing from the loins, and the breast-bones.
Transliterated Arabic: Yakhruju min bayni alssulbi waalttara-ibi

Besides, I would suggest that, like the Bible, context w.r.t. surrounding verses is important. So I have looked at 86:5-10 and in the Hilali-Khan translation
086:005 So let man see from what he is created!
086:006 He is created from a water gushing forth
086:007 Proceeding from between the back-bone and the ribs,
086:008 Verily, (Allah) is Able to bring him back (to life)!
086:009 The Day when all the secrets (deeds, prayers, fasting, etc.) will be examined (as to their truth).
086:010 Then will (man) have no power, nor any helper.
I see no Jesus Christ in these verses. :-?

P.S. What I do see is an error in how man is created! :o

Kind regards
Gary
 
Hi Gary...

Indeed context is very important....and lends additional credence to this ayah, and whole sura (for that matter) as pertaining to Jesus Christ.

Here is the exegetical reasoning for my rendering of 86.7...


Summary of 86.7:

• In the Gospel according to John, we are told the geographic location in which Jesus was crucified
• The knoll, near Jerusalem, where Jesus was crucified upon the cross (stauros), is described as being a rocky place where large stones have been rolled
• John relays his eyewitness account as to the physical location in which Jesus’ body was pierced while upon the Cross
• John records that a soldier’s spear pierced (nusso) Jesus’ side (pleura)
• As confirmation that Jesus died upon the cross, we are told that the soldiers spear pierced Jesus, on His side, through the rib
• John also records that Jesus was wrapped in grave clothes and was placed in a grave, further confirming His death upon the Cross
• John also details to us that Jesus’ grave was later found to be empty, and that scripture had forecast His Resurrection

• We are told in the Gospel according to John:

• That Jesus was crucified upon the Cross until dead
• The geographical location where Jesus was crucified
• That Jesus was pierced with a spear
• The physical location on Jesus’ body in which He was pierced (i.e. the ribs, the side)
• That blood and water poured from His side after He was confirmed dead
• That Jesus was Resurrected


• Following on the heals of 86.6, which informs us that Jesus Christ (i.e. the Morning Star) was crucified until death upon the Cross, and that the inner man was created from this crucifixion event; 86.7 continues with the masculine, singular, imperfect tense “yakhrujuâ€Â, meaning “He emergesâ€Â
• Surveying all twenty Koranic locations of “yakhruju†& “wayakhruju†demonstrates that this term is overwhelmingly used in reference to, and describes an action by, Koranic deity
• Most notable of its contextual usage is the fact that it references the entering into the earth (death & burial), and the subsequent emerging from it (masculine singular representing Jesus’ Resurrection), and then the ascending and descending in a cloud – identical to the Biblical Jesus Christ
• The repeated contextual usage of “yakhrujuâ€Â, relating to ascension/descending in a cloud, further solidifies The Second Coming of Jesus theme of sura 86, as evidenced all the way through the sura
• These ayahs have also provided for us numerous attributes that apply to Jesus, such as:

• The First & the Last
• The Ever Merciful
• The Most Protecting One


• The root “kharaja†gives us greater insight by informing us that, “He departed†signifying that He was in the grave but no longer is
• Further, this root is also stated to be a name for the day of Resurrection
• “Yakhruju†is referring to Jesus’ singular Resurrection from the grave, and imputes deity to Him


• The next term is “minâ€Â, and, just as in 86.6, “min†is a preposition signifying origin, composition, explanation, commencement, and has been rendered “fromâ€Â
• Thus, we are about to be informed from where He (Jesus), emerges from
• The juxtaposed term, “bayniâ€Â, tells us that the emerging is from between two things, per the classic definition: Denotes intervention in the interval between two things, or the middle, or midst, of two things, or the middle of a collective number; thus it signifies between, and amidst, and among. A man, or thing bearing evidence of a quality that he, or it, possesses.
• It is interesting that the classic definition also states that it applies to a man bearing evidence of a quality that he possesses
• The root “bana†also indicates something that is made apparent, evident, or clear

• “Sulbi†is the next very revealing term, as it is a genitive case, singular, masculine noun – which means that it is in possession of another adjacent noun
• “Sulbi†carries with it the following definition: A rugged, stony place: a rugged, extending place of earth or ground; a hard part of the earth or ground
• Comparing to the Gospel of John, this correlates to the Hebrew term “Golgothaâ€Â, and refers to the geographical location in which Jesus Christ was crucified

• “Sulbi†gives us a physical location on the human body (i.e. the backbone)
• “Sulbi†also gives us a weapon (i.e. a sharpened spear)

• “Alssulbi†is rendered as ‘The Cross’, and carries with it the following classic definitions: “To cause to be crucified. Signifies also ichor, or watery humor, mixed with blood, that flows from the dead. A cross; a certain thing pertaining to Christians, which they take as an object to which to direct the face in prayer. A posture forbidden by the prophet because resembling that of a man when he is crucified, the arms of the man in this case being extended upon the timber.â€Â
• “Alssulbi†is therefore referencing a very specific thing:

• A CRUCIFIXION

• Further, “alssulbi’s†root “salaba†carries with it the meaning “to crucify; he crucified him; to put to death by crucificationâ€Â
• Outside of sura 86, the root derivatives of “salaba†occur only seven times (4.23, 4.157, 5.33, 7.124, 12.41, 20.71, 26.49)
• In six of these seven occurrences, it directly references the complete certainty of death through crucifixion
• The seventh ayah refers to a physical location upon the human body

• Honorable mention goes out to ayah 4.157
• 4.157 is the quintessential Islamic ayah used by Muslims in an attempt to thwart Jesus’ crucifixion, until death, upon the Cross
• This ayah has been misinterpreted and promoted as a crucifixion denial, when, in fact, it is a Biblical confirmation that Jesus’ crucifixion, and death, upon the Cross, actually did take place
• Rendering 4.157 as a crucifixion denial, forces the Koran into contradiction with itself
• 4.157 contains a plethora of positive affirmations, including “wamaâ€Â, and leaves no doubt in the mind of the reader that Jesus was killed upon the Cross
• Further, the root “khahafa†gives us deeper insight via the classic meaning “he came after, followed, succeeded, or remained after another or another that had perished or died.†And…take the place of, be the agent, substitute of. A substitute
• Here we have a confirmation that Jesus indeed died on the Cross, as the root confirms that His followers remained after He died on the Cross
• Further, the root also confirms to us that Jesus was the sin substitution for mankind
• Additionally, the root “shakkaâ€Â, imparts the meaning “I pierced, or transpierced him, or it, with a spear.â€Â
• Confirming that Jesus was pierced in the side – same as declared in the Holy Bible.

• We are told an enormous amount of information from “alssulbiâ€Â, its root, its derivatives, and its Koranic context

• The final noun in this ayah is “waalttara-ibiâ€Â
• “Waalttara-ibi†means “rib bones or four ribs of the right side of the chest and four of the left thereofâ€Â
• This word also refers to the part of a camel in which it is stabbed, or stuck
• Further, this word also refers to “a man’s graveâ€Â
• Reading each Koranic root derivative of “taribaâ€Â, in context, demonstrates the overwhelming usage in direct reference to a resurrection and salvation event.
• Additionally, four of these ayahs have already been identified as pertaining to the fluid-based creation passages (i.e. water/blood and water) as covered in the 86.6 exegesis (i.e. 18.37, 22.5, 35.11, & 40.67)

• Honorable mention goes to ayah 3.59 which also shares a root derivative which directly involves Jesus Christ and mandates that the physical man is created through Jesus Christ

• Since “alssulbi†is genitive, this means that it holds “waalttara-ibi†in possession…i.e. the Cross has possession over the grave

• By Koranic context alone, the evidence is overwhelming in favor of 86.7 directly referencing a crucifixion event that resulted in certain death, by referencing a physical location on the human body (i.e. Jesus’ body…i.e. the Morning Star)


• We are told point blank in 86.7:

• That Jesus was crucified upon the Cross until dead
• The geographical location where Jesus was crucified
• That Jesus was pierced with a spear
• The physical location on Jesus’ body in which He was pierced (i.e. between the backbone and the ribs)
• That blood and water poured from His side after He was confirmed dead
• That Jesus was Resurrected



• Observe that two equally valid alternate renderings can be gleaned from 86.7:

1) 86.7 He emerges from amidst the Cross and the grave

Or

2) 86.7 He emerges from between the backbone and the rib


• Both renderings can only be referring to Jesus Christ
• The first rendering signifying Jesus’ singular Resurrection from death upon the Cross
• The second rendering signifying the physical location upon Jesus’ body in which the blood and water flowed forth confirming His death upon the Cross
• Either rendering has Jesus Christ (i.e. the Morning Star; the title of this sura) as the singular One overcoming
 
Interesting and thanks Apple Pie.

Are you aware of anyone, historically, who had a similar rendering (translation into English) or understanding of these ayah? If so, who and when?

Or are you the first, to the best of your knowledge, who has this kind of translation and understanding of these verses?

Kinds regards
Gary
 
Was the Person on the Cross Really Jesus?

The Bible says
“For the LORD loves the just and will not forsake his faithful ones. They will be protected forever, but the offspring of the wicked will be cut off;†(NIV,Psalms 37:28)

But yet when Jesus Christ (pbuh) was put on the cross according to the Bible. He cried out

“About the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice,"My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" (Mathew 27:46)

“And at the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice,"My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" (Mark 15:34)


How can Jesus be forsaken when God does not forsake his faithful ones?? Now the Christians have four options to choose from.

1.The person put on the cross was not really Jesus.

2.Jesus (pbuh) was not faithful to God.

3.Jesus (pbuh) is a lied that God forsook him.

4.Bible is lying when it says that God does not forsake his beloved ones.

You have four options to choose from. Now with whatever gymnastics you try. You cannot add a fifth option here. So decide for yourself.
 
There's something you missed:

He bore the sins of mankind.
We can see the humanity of Christ in Gethsemane as he knew what was to be:

Luk 22:42 Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me:...

And we can see His divinity in the same verse:

...nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.

By the Law of Moses He had to be judged for he bore the sins of mankind. He had to stand accused under Satan and the power of death.



Christ knew what was coming.

John 2:19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.


So why the words from the cross?

Psalms 22:1 <To the chief Musician upon Aijeleth Shahar, A Psalm of David.> My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?
Psalms 22:2 O my God, I cry in the daytime, but thou hearest not; and in the night season, and am not silent.
Psalms 22:3 But thou art holy, O thou that inhabitest the praises of Israel.
Psalms 22:4 Our fathers trusted in thee: they trusted, and thou didst deliver them.
Psa 22:5 They cried unto thee, and were delivered: they trusted in thee, and were not confounded.
Psalms 22:6 But I am a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people.
Psalms 22:7 All they that see me laugh me to scorn: they shoot out the lip, they shake the head, saying,
Psalms 22:8 He trusted on the LORD that he would deliver him: let him deliver him, seeing he delighted in him.


Luke 23:35 And the people stood beholding. And the rulers also with them derided him, saying, He saved others; let him save himself, if he be Christ, the chosen of God.


Christ is telling them to trust in God as scripture already had in prophesy, "Our fathers trusted in thee: they trusted, and thou didst deliver them."

Christ is making His point to the people. They knew well the scripture for it was read every Sabbath day.


Psalms 22:1 My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?
Psalms 22:2 O my God, I cry in the daytime, but thou hearest not; and in the night season, and am not silent.
Psalms 22:3 But thou art holy, O thou that inhabitest the praises of Israel.
Psalms 22:4 Our fathers trusted in thee: they trusted, and thou didst deliver them.
Psa 22:5 They cried unto thee, and were delivered: they trusted in thee, and were not confounded.

This man Jesus was the Christ.


What you missed was the same quote used in Psalms and that is the key to why Christ said what He did.
 
Mansoor_ali and others like him really need to do their own work.

Found this:


Rebuttal to John Gilchrist “Does Ahmed Deedat support the Qadiani theory of Crucifixion?â€Â

Sheikh Ahmed Deedat responds.
By: Yahya Ahmed

How can Jesus be forsaken when God does not forsake his faithful ones?? Now the Christians have four options to choose from.

1. The person put on the cross was not really Jesus.

2. Jesus (pbuh) was not faithful to God.

3. Jesus (pbuh) lied that God forsook him.

4. Bible is lying when it says that God does not forsake his beloved ones.

You have four options to choose from. Now with whatever gymnastics you try. You cannot add a fifth option here. So decide for yourself.
 
Islam does not deny that Jesus died on the cross. They just feel that he was just a great prophet and not the divine son of God or Allah.
 
therealsuperman64 said:
Islam does not deny that Jesus died on the cross. They just feel that he was just a great prophet and not the divine son of God or Allah.

Actually, Islam does deny that Christ died on the cross. They believe that it was an illusion by Allah to fool his enemies. So if that translation is correct then it is a contradiction of Islamic belief.
 
If that's the case then Allah is a fool, he's not God. Muslims might as well find any old bum on the street and worship them.
 
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