Jesus

[archangel_300]

Knowledge of the future means it's preordained. Please explain how we can freely choose what to do if the future is set in stone. Since God knows everything we will do he knew he was creating sinners. Why did he create sinners? I just can't seem to get my mind around all these logical contradictions.
Best my friend.

The future is set in stone but it is not set in stone by God, it is set in stone by our decisions.
Think about it this way.... I know you will post to this message after I submit it. You actually have the free will to reply or not reply.. but I know you will reply back to me. When you post a message back to me, did I force you to post it? If I pre-ordained you to post it then you don't have free will. Obviously the future is not pre-ordained by me so you have the free will to choose even though I already know what you are planning to do.

Thanks and best to you my friend as well.

 

[kpd560]

Knowledge of the future means it's preordained. Please explain how we can freely choose what to do if the future is set in stone. Since God knows everything we will do he knew he was creating sinners. Why did he create sinners? I just can't seem to get my mind around all these logical contradictions.
Best my friend.

The future is set in stone but it is not set in stone by God, it is set in stone by our decisions.
Think about it this way.... I know you will post to this message after I submit it. You actually have the free will to reply or not reply.. but I know you will reply back to me. When you post a message back to me, did I force you to post it? If I pre-ordained you to post it then you don't have free will. Obviously the future is not pre-ordained by me so you have the free will to choose even though I already know what you are planning to do.

Thanks and best to you my friend as well.

OK, you win. The future is set in stone so our decisions are made but we have free will because God didn't force our decisons.

Just consider for a moment if God didn't know the future so it wasn't set in stone. We still have free will right? So, future set in stone = free will and future not set in stone = free will.

So the only time we don't have free will is if God revealed himself without question because everyone would then have to decide to believe in him. If God actually revealed himself it would be impossible for anyone to decide not to follow him?

I'm gonna go lie down for a bit...

 

[archangel_300]

OK, you win. The future is set in stone so our decisions are made but we have free will because God didn't force our decisons.

To clarify at what I was trying to get at...
The future is known so that it makes the "appearance" that it's set in stone.
But knowing the future doesn't mean that we lose free will. Every decision we make rests upon our shoulders.

Just consider for a moment if God didn't know the future so it wasn't set in stone. We still have free will right? So, future set in stone = free will and future not set in stone = free will.

I would assume so.

So the only time we don't have free will is if God revealed himself without question because everyone would then have to decide to believe in him. If God actually revealed himself it would be impossible for anyone to decide not to follow him?

Yes unfortunately we don't have free will to "choose Christ" and become saved.
That has been pre-ordained. If God revealed Himself as clear as crystal to everyone no one would follow him because we are all spiritually dead, hence salvation must be pre-ordained. Romans 3:10-11
Our desire to serve Christ and come to faith is from Him as He draws us. John 6:44

Although some may argue and state "Well God knew who would choose Him and who wouldn't and so he was crucified for those that would choose him" As far as I gather from scripture I don't think that's the case.

 

[kpd560]

If God revealed Himself as clear as crystal to everyone no one would follow him because we are all spiritually dead, hence salvation must be pre-ordained.

Now I'm really confused because I was always told that God couldn't reveal himself because then it would be a no-brainer or rather a no-faither to believe in Him. Faith is apparently paramount in Christianity. See, I'm learning new things here!

Best to you my friend.

 

[glorydaz]

If God revealed Himself as clear as crystal to everyone no one would follow him because we are all spiritually dead, hence salvation must be pre-ordained.

Now I'm really confused because I was always told that God couldn't reveal himself because then it would be a no-brainer or rather a no-faither to believe in Him. Faith is apparently paramount in Christianity. See, I'm learning new things here!

Best to you my friend.

Actually, God reveals Himself to us through the order of the universe, the beauty of a sunset, the miracle of birth, and every other wonder of nature we see around us. When I was just a young child, I looked around and knew there was a God. No one had to tell me...it was there in my inner being. The creature is predisposed to know His Creator. Then God revealed Himself in the person of Jesus Christ and those who saw Him, and those of us who hear of Him are called by God to turn to the Son for salvation. Faith is believing what we don't see with our eyes, but are convinced of in our heart.

Each man is given a conscience by God that declares He exists...so man is without excuse.

Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

The sacrifice was not necessary for man to be saved, but it is the way God chose...that the path to life would be through faith. We're simply told to look to Jesus Christ and trust He is the path God set forth for our salvation. It's foolishness to those who are perishing, but eternal life to those who believe.

 

[archangel_300]

If God revealed Himself as clear as crystal to everyone no one would follow him because we are all spiritually dead, hence salvation must be pre-ordained.

Now I'm really confused because I was always told that God couldn't reveal himself because then it would be a no-brainer or rather a no-faither to believe in Him. Faith is apparently paramount in Christianity. See, I'm learning new things here!

Best to you my friend.

That's great that you are learning new things!
Keep the questions coming and may God bless!

 

[kpd560]

Actually, God reveals Himself to us through the order of the universe, the beauty of a sunset, the miracle of birth, and every other wonder of nature we see around us.

If the Christian God reveals Himself so clearly why do most people on this planet not believe in Him?
Is He OK with this? Why doesn't He convince more people to believe in Him? He knows exactly how to convince me but He doesn't. Why? Doesn't He love me enough? Am I not worthy? So many questions. So few answers...

 

[glorydaz]

Actually, God reveals Himself to us through the order of the universe, the beauty of a sunset, the miracle of birth, and every other wonder of nature we see around us.

If the Christian God reveals Himself so clearly why do most people on this planet not believe in Him?
Is He OK with this? Why doesn't He convince more people to believe in Him? He knows exactly how to convince me but He doesn't. Why? Doesn't He love me enough? Am I not worthy? So many questions. So few answers...

You're here aren't you?

Jeremiah 29:13
And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart.

 

[kpd560]

Actually, God reveals Himself to us through the order of the universe, the beauty of a sunset, the miracle of birth, and every other wonder of nature we see around us.

If the Christian God reveals Himself so clearly why do most people on this planet not believe in Him?
Is He OK with this? Why doesn't He convince more people to believe in Him? He knows exactly how to convince me but He doesn't. Why? Doesn't He love me enough? Am I not worthy? So many questions. So few answers...

You're here aren't you?

Jeremiah 29:13
And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart.

Clever, but mans ability to believe anything he really, really wants to believe is well documented. If I really tried I could probably convince myself there was an invisible space alien in my attic (especially if I joined a group of invisible attic alien believers) but I prefer to believe something for sound logical reasons. God could provide me with sound logical reasons but he doesn't. I guess I'm doomed to burn in agony for eternity because God doesn't want me. C'est la vie.

 

[archangel_300]

Actually, God reveals Himself to us through the order of the universe, the beauty of a sunset, the miracle of birth, and every other wonder of nature we see around us.

If the Christian God reveals Himself so clearly why do most people on this planet not believe in Him?
Is He OK with this? Why doesn't He convince more people to believe in Him? He knows exactly how to convince me but He doesn't. Why? Doesn't He love me enough? Am I not worthy? So many questions. So few answers...

In addition to what glorydaz mentioned...
Most people on the planet do not believe in Him because they have not been given the breath of spiritual life. Before we become saved none of us seek after God and none of us believe.
The breath of life comes when we are exposed to the Word of God. As Romans 10:17 states "Faith comes by hearing and hearing by God's word". This faith is the very core of our Christianity.
When we are transformed by becoming born again we come to life.

One reason why you may not be convinced is because you are not yet convinced the Bible is divine in origin. At least that is how I came to faith in Christ. After careful study I have come to the conclusion that it could not be the work of man but rather it must have been the work of an external source. After that revelation I couldn't go back to unbelief... I then realized what Romans 10:17 stated was indeed true. I'm truly amazed at the Holy Scriptures.

A good book to read is "From Shadow to Reality" by John Oakes.

 

[kpd560]

One reason why you may not be convinced is because you are not yet convinced the Bible is divine in origin. At least that is how I came to faith in Christ. After careful study I have come to the conclusion that it could not be the work of man but rather it must have been the work of an external source. After that revelation I couldn't go back to unbelief... I then realized what Romans 10:17 stated was indeed true. I'm truly amazed at the Holy Scriptures.

You're right, I"m not convinced it's of divine origin. Did you carefully study any other divinely inspired books or just the Bible? Are your parents and friends mostly Christian? If your parents and friends were Muslim would you probably be a Muslim now? Was there anything specific in the Bible that you found especially convincing? Best.

 

[logical bob]

One reason why you may not be convinced is because you are not yet convinced the Bible is divine in origin. At least that is how I came to faith in Christ. After careful study I have come to the conclusion that it could not be the work of man but rather it must have been the work of an external source. After that revelation I couldn't go back to unbelief... I then realized what Romans 10:17 stated was indeed true. I'm truly amazed at the Holy Scriptures.

That really sums up what's puzzling me. I'm inclined to agree with you that if Christianity is true then the Bible should be persuasive. Several times on this forum, however, when I've explained why I'm not convinced by the Bible people have told me things like "do you think you can understand the Bible and study the Bible if you don't believe in Christ?" or "your carnal mind will only lead you to carnal understanding." This seems like a vicious circle to me. Apparently you need the Bible to believe, but you have to believe in order to understand the Bible.

 

[kpd560]

[quote="archangel_300":1yya0ntw]One reason why you may not be convinced is because you are not yet convinced the Bible is divine in origin. At least that is how I came to faith in Christ. After careful study I have come to the conclusion that it could not be the work of man but rather it must have been the work of an external source. After that revelation I couldn't go back to unbelief... I then realized what Romans 10:17 stated was indeed true. I'm truly amazed at the Holy Scriptures.

That really sums up what's puzzling me. I'm inclined to agree with you that if Christianity is true then the Bible should be persuasive. Several times on this forum, however, when I've explained why I'm not convinced by the Bible people have told me things like "do you think you can understand the Bible and study the Bible if you don't believe in Christ?" or "your carnal mind will only lead you to carnal understanding." This seems like a vicious circle to me. Apparently you need the Bible to believe, but you have to believe in order to understand the Bible.[/quote:1yya0ntw]

I agree, that's what makes me suspicious. You have to want to believe before you can believe. Belief should be based on evidence not desire. If everyone believed everything they want to believe this planet would be a looney bin with 7 billion inmates.

 

[glorydaz]

If the Christian God reveals Himself so clearly why do most people on this planet not believe in Him?
Is He OK with this? Why doesn't He convince more people to believe in Him? He knows exactly how to convince me but He doesn't. Why? Doesn't He love me enough? Am I not worthy? So many questions. So few answers...

You're here aren't you?

Jeremiah 29:13
And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart.

Clever, but mans ability to believe anything he really, really wants to believe is well documented. If I really tried I could probably convince myself there was an invisible space alien in my attic (especially if I joined a group of invisible attic alien believers) but I prefer to believe something for sound logical reasons. God could provide me with sound logical reasons but he doesn't. I guess I'm doomed to burn in agony for eternity because God doesn't want me. C'est la vie.

Yeah, I used to believe when I died I'd flit through space, so I always kept a loved one beside me so I wouldn't be alone. :biglaugh

I don't know you, but I do know God pretty well. If God sees anything worth saving in your heart, he will have you. Course, He doesn't have any rules of conduct by which He must play...and He controls everything in your personal universe...including your health, wealth, and happiness. The prodigal son had resorted to sleeping and eating with pigs before he turned. Some of us take a harder whacking than others before we see. If you're looking for sound logic before you turn to God, you may have to face some "real world" adversity first...just saying. There aren't any athiests in fox holes.

 

[archangel_300]

One reason why you may not be convinced is because you are not yet convinced the Bible is divine in origin. At least that is how I came to faith in Christ. After careful study I have come to the conclusion that it could not be the work of man but rather it must have been the work of an external source. After that revelation I couldn't go back to unbelief... I then realized what Romans 10:17 stated was indeed true. I'm truly amazed at the Holy Scriptures.

You're right, I"m not convinced it's of divine origin. Did you carefully study any other divinely inspired books or just the Bible? Are your parents and friends mostly Christian? If your parents and friends were Muslim would you probably be a Muslim now? Was there anything specific in the Bible that you found especially convincing? Best.

There are plenty of things. But of course what may be one man's proof may not be for another.
If I were to do show all the reasons and to do it in a manner that was thorough I would have to write a book. I won't be able to do it on this forum, that's why I suggested John Oakes "From Shadow to Reality". I became convinced that the scriptures are divine in origin through many years of careful scrutiny with my own mind.

For example... take a look at Psalm 22 and read it very carefully. Can you tell me what you see?
Read Genesis 22. Can you tell me what you see here?

Here's the hard one...
Read Numbers 20:1-13... Please tell me what you see here.

Use your spiritual eyes to see.
If you still don't see come back to me and I'll explain.

EDIT: I'll give you a hint.
Hebrews 10:7
Then I said, ‘Behold, I have come—In the volume of the book it is written of Me—To do Your will, O God.’â€

 

[glorydaz]

One reason why you may not be convinced is because you are not yet convinced the Bible is divine in origin. At least that is how I came to faith in Christ. After careful study I have come to the conclusion that it could not be the work of man but rather it must have been the work of an external source. After that revelation I couldn't go back to unbelief... I then realized what Romans 10:17 stated was indeed true. I'm truly amazed at the Holy Scriptures.

You're right, I"m not convinced it's of divine origin. Did you carefully study any other divinely inspired books or just the Bible? Are your parents and friends mostly Christian? If your parents and friends were Muslim would you probably be a Muslim now? Was there anything specific in the Bible that you found especially convincing? Best.

I can share my experience...for what it's worth. Someone brought me a copy of Late Great Planet Earth by Hal Lindsey. I was amazed when I read of all the prophecies, written thousands of years ago, that had been fulfilled...I decided to check them out with the Bible, thinking I'd find many flaws. Since I didn't know where to look, I chose the "red letters" because they stood out. LOL. Little did I know they were the words of Jesus, Himself. I quickly put down Hal Lindsey's book and read and read everything our Lord spoke. I was in love...to put it simply. There is power in the Word of God....and none in the words of men. And, yes, I had read many other books written by men...I was a died-in-the-wool hippy, taken up with searching out the meaning of life. Interesting...but no power. I was the first born-again Christian in my immediate family, although there was an old grandma everyone made fun of that would include Bible quotes in her cards (that we never read). You can bet, the first person I contacted, after giving my heart to the Lord, was that wonderful old lady who had been praying for all of us since before I was born.

 

[archangel_300]

I can share my experience...for what it's worth. Someone brought me a copy of Late Great Planet Earth by Hal Lindsey. I was amazed when I read of all the prophecies, written thousands of years ago, that had been fulfilled...I decided to check them out with the Bible, thinking I'd find many flaws. Since I didn't know where to look, I chose the "red letters" because they stood out. LOL. Little did I know they were the words of Jesus, Himself. I quickly put down Hal Lindsey's book and read and read everything our Lord spoke. I was in love...to put it simply. There is power in the Word of God....and none in the words of men. And, yes, I had read many other books written by men...I was a died-in-the-wool hippy, taken up with searching out the meaning of life. Interesting...but no power. I was the first born-again Christian in my immediate family, although there was an old grandma everyone made fun of that would include Bible quotes in her cards (that we never read). You can bet, the first person I contacted, after giving my heart to the Lord, was that wonderful old lady who had been praying for all of us since before I was born.

There IS power in the Word of God and it breathes spiritual life into us.