Joe Mizzi doesn't know...

[CatholicXian]

Joe Mizzi ("justforcatholics.org") doesn't know what he's talking about in regards to the Cathoic Church. He is not a good/reputable source for finding knowledge of the Catholic faith.

If you want to know what Catholicism teaches... read the Catechism. ;-)

 

[Gary]

Mary, Queen of heaven?

Hi CatholicXian. oh, I disagree. I believe that Joe Mizzi understands Roman Catholicism very well. IF you think he errs, please highlight, from his website, where you believe he has misrepresented Roman Catholicism.

I would suggest you start here:
http://www.justforcatholics.org/answers.htm

I have read the Catechism of the Catholic Church.... as has Joe.

The CCC only PROVES the errors in the Roman Catholic church! You can see that most of the Mary-ology has no Scriptural proof at all. I think it should be indexed under "Mythology".

P.S. It has always amazed me that the Catechism of the Catholic Church is 700+ pages -- almost thicker than my Bible!!!

:wink:

 

[CatholicXian]

Mary, Queen of heaven?

Yep, even comes from the Scriptures!

Rev 12:1 And a great sign appeared in heaven: A woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars.
Rev 12:2 And being with child, she cried travailing in birth: and was in pain to be delivered.
Rev 12:3 And there was seen another sign in heaven. And behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns and on his heads seven diadems.
Rev 12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven and cast them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was ready to be delivered: that, when she should be delivered, he might devour her son.
Rev 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with an iron rod. And her son was taken up to God and to his throne.

In this passage, the Son waiting to be devoured by the dragon is typically taken to be Jesus, thus, the woman must be Mary....

(I will further this idea once I get to Mr. Mizzi's section about Mary and the Catholic Church)

Hi CatholicXian. oh, I disagree. I believe that Joe Mizzi understands Roman Catholicism very well. IF you think he errs, please highlight, from his website, where you believe he has misrepresented Roman Catholicism.

Hi, Gary Bee! Though I disagree, my intent in this thread is your very suggestion... I will go through Mr. Mizzi's site and highlight many of his errors regarding Catholicism.

I would suggest you start here:
http://www.justforcatholics.org/answers.htm

Then that's what I'll shall do. I'll try and break up my posts to make things easier to read.

I have read the Catechism of the Catholic Church.... as has Joe.

Interesting.

The CCC only PROVES the errors in the Roman Catholic church! You can see that most of the Mary-ology has no Scriptural proof at all. I think it should be indexed under "Mythology".

The Catechism does not prove "errors" in the Catholic Church (which, by the way, you ought not call "Roman", for you might offend the Eastern-riters! (note: "rite" not "Orthodox" (capital "O"))). I shall address Mariology as well, though, considering you read the Catechism I'm surprised you must've missed CCC 487 "what the Catholic faith believes about Mary is based on what it believes about Christ, and what it teaches about Mary illumines in turn its faith in Christ". Even though you may disagree--that's your understanding of it. Catholic teaching on Mary is meant to only all the more illuminate our Savior, Jesus Christ.

P.S. It has always amazed me that the Catechism of the Catholic Church is 700+ pages -- almost thicker than my Bible!!!

What has thickness to do with anything? And besides, it's not more than 700 pages unless you're counting the indexes! ;-) (688 to be exact)... and it also depends on which translation of the Bible you have...


Okay, allow me some time to go eat breakfast/brunch and then I shall begin with Mr. Mizzi's site.

 

[Gary]

CCC 487 "what the Catholic faith believes about Mary is based on what it believes about Christ, and what it teaches about Mary illumines in turn its faith in Christ".

Gary: ...and, as is so often in the CCC, no Biblical references on CCC487.

Mary, Queen of heaven?

Yep, even comes from the Scriptures!

Rev 12:1 And a great sign appeared in heaven: A woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars.
Rev 12:2 And being with child, she cried travailing in birth: and was in pain to be delivered.
Rev 12:3 And there was seen another sign in heaven. And behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns and on his heads seven diadems.
Rev 12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven and cast them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was ready to be delivered: that, when she should be delivered, he might devour her son.
Rev 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with an iron rod. And her son was taken up to God and to his throne.

In this passage, the Son waiting to be devoured by the dragon is typically taken to be Jesus, thus, the woman must be Mary....

Gary: hmmm... not so sure on that. Firstly, the “woman†is NOT called "Queen of Heaven" in those verses. Secondly, the “woman†does not represent Mary but the nation of Israel for whom there is “a place prepared by God, that there she might be taken care of for twelve hundred and sixty days†(Rev 12:6) during the tribulation period before Christ returns to earth (see also Rev 11:2-3).

It was only Christ, not the woman who was “caught up to God and his throne†(Rev 12:5). It is pure eisegesis (reading into the text), not legitimate exegesis (reading out of the text) to argue that Mary, though not being caught up here, is pictured in heaven in the celestial imagery. It is very clear that "...And her son was taken up to God and to his throne." Not Mary.

Mariology or Mythology?

I shall address Mariology as well, though, considering you read the Catechism I'm surprised you must've missed CCC 487 ....

Gary: I am more surprised that you have taken only CCC 487 without also considering the many errors of the

- Immaculate Conception (411, 490-493, 508)
- Virgin Mother of God / Perpetual Virginity (484-489, 495-511)
- The Bodily Assumption of Mary (966, 974)
- The Sinlessness of Mary (491)
- The Mediatorship of Mary (494, 963-973, 975, 2673-2682)
- The Veneration of Mary (971, 2676-2679, 2682)

As we work through those, please be prepared to offer Biblical proofs. I am unconcerned as to what the CCC says unless it is supported by Scripture.

Kind regards and enjoy your breakfast!
Gary

 

[Gary]

The thick CCC

Gary: ..... It has always amazed me that the Catechism of the Catholic Church is 700+ pages -- almost thicker than my Bible!!!

CatholicXian: What has thickness to do with anything? ...And besides, it's not more than 700 pages unless you're counting the indexes! (688 to be exact)...

Gary: Mine is the updated version (Editio Typica) with extended subject index and "Reader's Guide to Themes." (778 pages to be more exact)... unless you want to discard those pages!!

Does a new Roman Catholic convert first read the CCC or the Bible?

If I added the CCC and the 16 Documents, that would be about 1500 pages!!!

:roll:

 

[CatholicXian]

The thick CCC

Gary: ..... It has always amazed me that the Catechism of the Catholic Church is 700+ pages -- almost thicker than my Bible!!!

CatholicXian: What has thickness to do with anything? ...And besides, it's not more than 700 pages unless you're counting the indexes! (688 to be exact)...

Gary: Mine is the updated version (Editio Typica) with extended subject index and "Reader's Guide to Themes." (778 pages to be more exact)... unless you want to discard those pages!!

Does a new Roman Catholic convert first read the CCC or the Bible?

If I added the CCC and the 16 Documents, that would be about 1500 pages!!!

:roll:

You still didn't address the question... why does thickness matter?


Secondly, in answer to your question, a new convert to the Catholic faith (why do you still insist on the word "roman"? "Roman" only refers to the "Latin" RITE of the Catholic Church... what if I were a Byzantine Catholic?) would hopefully begin reading the Scriptures. The Catechism, despite your assertions, is based in Scriptures. And a working knowledge of the Scriptures is necessary to understand the rest of the Catholic faith included in the Catechism.

 

[CatholicXian]

CCC 487 "what the Catholic faith believes about Mary is based on what it believes about Christ, and what it teaches about Mary illumines in turn its faith in Christ".

Gary: ...and, as is so often in the CCC, no Biblical references on CCC487.

:roll: It was a statement about beliefs based on the Scriptures in their entirety, not merely a single passage.

Mary, Queen of heaven?

Yep, even comes from the Scriptures!

Rev 12:1 And a great sign appeared in heaven: A woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars.
Rev 12:2 And being with child, she cried travailing in birth: and was in pain to be delivered.
Rev 12:3 And there was seen another sign in heaven. And behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns and on his heads seven diadems.
Rev 12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven and cast them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was ready to be delivered: that, when she should be delivered, he might devour her son.
Rev 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with an iron rod. And her son was taken up to God and to his throne.

In this passage, the Son waiting to be devoured by the dragon is typically taken to be Jesus, thus, the woman must be Mary....

Gary: hmmm... not so sure on that. Firstly, the “woman†is NOT called "Queen of Heaven" in those verses. Secondly, the “woman†does not represent Mary but the nation of Israel for whom there is “a place prepared by God, that there she might be taken care of for twelve hundred and sixty days†(Rev 12:6) during the tribulation period before Christ returns to earth (see also Rev 11:2-3).

It was only Christ, not the woman who was “caught up to God and his throne†(Rev 12:5). It is pure eisegesis (reading into the text), not legitimate exegesis (reading out of the text) to argue that Mary, though not being caught up here, is pictured in heaven in the celestial imagery. It is very clear that "...And her son was taken up to God and to his throne." Not Mary.

Now you've changed the subject. Which do you want to discuss, who the woman in Revelations is, or Mary's assumption?

If you presume that the woman in Revelations is the Church, then who is the son the dragon is waiting to devour???

Mariology or Mythology?

I shall address Mariology as well, though, considering you read the Catechism I'm surprised you must've missed CCC 487 ....

Gary: I am more surprised that you have taken only CCC 487 without also considering the many errors of the

- Immaculate Conception (411, 490-493, 508)
- Virgin Mother of God / Perpetual Virginity (484-489, 495-511)
- The Bodily Assumption of Mary (966, 974)
- The Sinlessness of Mary (491)
- The Mediatorship of Mary (494, 963-973, 975, 2673-2682)
- The Veneration of Mary (971, 2676-2679, 2682)

As we work through those, please be prepared to offer Biblical proofs. I am unconcerned as to what the CCC says unless it is supported by Scripture.

All things in time. I will address each and every point you question, with bibilical references.

However, I am curious as to whether or not we should discuss/address the matter of interpretation first? We have already bumped into this issue with regards to Revelations 12:1-5 ... how are we to know who's interpretation is correct? During my time with the many kind Protestant pastors I spoke with before choosing Catholicism, I was told that the "Holy Spirit will guide [me] unto the Truth", which I do not doubt. I have prayed about the Scriptures. Before I even open the Bible I always pray first... thus, if two believers are at odds over a Scriptural passage... what happens?

Kind regards and enjoy your breakfast!
Gary

Thanks, and you as well.

 

[Gary]

CatholicXian: You still didn't address the question... why does thickness matter?

Gary: Obvious. The man-made dogma is more extensive than the inspired Bible. Ironic really.

 

[CatholicXian]

Actually, it might be better to begin somewhere else. The matter of "christian". I noticed that many of these topics regarding Catholicism seem to suspect the "christianity" of Catholicism.

1. Is Catholicism a Christianity based religion? Why/why not?

2. What makes a person a Christian?

 

[CatholicXian]

CatholicXian: You still didn't address the question... why does thickness matter?

Gary: Obvious. The man-made dogma is more extensive than the inspired Bible. Ironic really.

:roll:

This isn't going to help us get anywhere.

 

[Gary]

....back to the thread...

CatholicXian: Joe Mizzi ( http://www.justforcatholics.org ) doesn't know what he's talking about in regards to the Cathoic(sic) Church.

Gary: That is your premise. Now prove it. "Joe Mizzi... doesn't know what he's talking about" is a very bold statement. He has several hundred webpages. You so sure of that statement?

 

[CatholicXian]

....back to the thread...

CatholicXian: Joe Mizzi ( http://www.justforcatholics.org ) doesn't know what he's talking about in regards to the Cathoic(sic) Church.

Gary: That is your premise. Now prove it. "Joe Mizzi... doesn't know what he's talking about" is a very bold statement. He has several hundred webpages. You so sure of that statement?

Fair enough, I'll return to the start of my topic.

To begin...
Under Mr. Mizzi's section entitled, "One Mediator" (http://www.justforcatholics.org/3.htm)

Here Mr. Mizzi claims that Catholics believe Mary and Catholic priests to be mediators between God and man at the expense of Christ, "Moreover she plainly teaches us to look upon God for salvation and not to herself or anyone else". No where in the Catechism is a Catholic called to look upon Mary or a priest or anyone than Christ for salvation. CCC 169 "Salvation comes from God alone". Secondly, of priests Mr. Mizzi asks, "What need is there for a Roman Catholic priest to offers sacrifices for sin if you have Jesus Christ?" Catholic priests do not just "offer sacrifices". Catholic priests offer ONE sacrifice. The SAME sacrifice of Christ 2000+ years ago on the cross that atoned for the sins of the world, past, present, and future. CCC 1330 "The Holy Sacrifice, because it makes present the one sacrifice of Christ the Savior" (notice Christ is called the Savior, not a priest, etc.â€â€another affirmation that only God is looked upon for Salvation.

If, by the intercession of Mary, or the guidance of a priest, Mr. Mizzi means to conclude that Catholics believe Salvation thus comes from either, he is largely mistaken.
[/quote]

 

[Gary]

Let us rather see what Joe Mizzi said, in context.

One Mediator

http://www.justforcatholics.org/3.htm

There is one God and one Mediator between God and men,
the Man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself a ransom for all - 1 Timothy 2:5.

Since God is holy and we are sinners, it is impossible to approach Him on our own. We need a mediator to cleanse us from sin and present us to God. The mediator is Jesus Christ: 'For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself a ransom for all' (1 Timothy 2:5). He only is the mediator because He alone shed his blood to secure the freedom of his people from the slavery of sin.

Sadly, tradition has obscured the clear teaching of the Bible. Unwilling to trust the Word of God, people have invented other 'mediators'.

Mary, the mother of the Lord

Mary is highly favored among women because she was chosen to be the mother of our Lord according to the flesh, and Christians rightly call her 'blessed' because of this unique privilege. However, Mary is not the Savior, nor the Mediator.

The Catholic church teaches that Mary was conceived without sin, that by her suffering she contributed to our salvation, that she taken up into Heaven and was appointed our mediatrix. She is also called our life and the gate of Heaven. None of this is taught in the Bible. On the contrary the Word of God teaches that Jesus was conceived without sin, that he died for our sins, ascended into heaven and that he is the only mediator. He alone is our life and he is the gate to Heaven. We should therefore look to Jesus Christ.

Mary said: 'My soul magnifies the Lord, and my spirit has rejoiced in God my saviour' (Luke 1:46). Mary desires to magnify the Lord and not to take his glory for herself. Moreover she plainly teaches us to look upon God for salvation and not to herself or anyone else. God is 'my saviour,' she confesses. We should call upon the name of Jesus, and not upon the name of Mary, because the apostle Peter says about the Lord Jesus, 'Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved' (Acts 4:12).

The Catholic priest

There were leaders in the New Testament church, called pastors, elders and overseers. But they are never called priests, and for good reason. The Old Testament priests were replaced by Jesus Christ, who is called the 'High Priest of our confession' (Hebrews 3:1).

The Old Testament priests were sinners, offered only the blood of animals, and entered only in a man-made Temple. Jesus is much better because he is sinless, offered his own blood and entered into Heaven itself. 'Such a High Priest was fitting for us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and has become higher than the heavens; who does not need daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the people's, for this He did once for all when he offered up Himself' (Hebrews 7:26-27).

What need is there for a Roman Catholic priest to offers sacrifices for sin if you have Jesus Christ? 'He is able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them' (Hebrews 7:25).

Do you want to know the way to Heaven? The Lord Jesus gives us a plain answer: 'I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me' (John 14:6). Come to the Father, through Jesus Christ, the only Mediator.

http://www.justforcatholics.org/3.htm

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

No where in the Catechism is a Catholic called to look upon Mary or a priest or anyone than Christ for salvation.

Gary: The whole thrust of Joe Mizzi's article is that there is ONLY ONE MEDIATOR. However, the Roman Catholic Church says otherwise. CCC969 "This motherhood of Mary in the order of grace continues uninterruptedly from the consent which she loyally gave at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, until the eternal fulfillment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation . . . . Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the (Roman Catholic) Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix." ref 512 (LG 62) http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p123a9p6.htm#969

There you have it from the CCC. Again, no Scriptural proof. Mary is called Mediatrix. On the other hand, the Bible plainly teaches There is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself a ransom for all - 1 Timothy 2:5.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Joe Mizzi: "What need is there for a Roman Catholic priest to offers sacrifices for sin if you have Jesus Christ?"

CatholicXian: Catholic priests do not just "offer sacrifices". Catholic priests offer ONE sacrifice.

Gary: Christ asked to be remembered, not sacrificed. Refer to Luke 22:19 "Do this in remembrance of Me". The Scriptures do not refer to the last Supper (the meal eaten on the night of Christ's betrayal) or to the Lord's Supper (the remembrance meal celebrated by Christians) as a sacrifice.

Secondly, Joe Mizzi's point is that...

There were leaders in the New Testament church, called pastors, elders and overseers. But they are never called priests, and for good reason. The Old Testament priests were replaced by Jesus Christ, who is called the 'High Priest of our confession' (Hebrews 3:1).

... as Joe Mizzi said...

Unwilling to trust the Word of God, people have invented other 'mediators'.

... and he correctly concludes...

What need is there for a Roman Catholic priest to offers sacrifices for sin if you have Jesus Christ? 'He is able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through Him, since He (Jesus Christ) always lives to make intercession for them' (Hebrews 7:25).

The words of Scripture are very clear. There is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself a ransom for all - 1 Timothy 2:5.

I need no "Mediatrix", I need no "priest" except Jesus Christ, who is called the 'High Priest of our confession' (Hebrews 3:1)

 

[CatholicXian]

Again, I repeat, there is only ONE mediator between God and man, Jesus Christ. No where in the Catechism is this disputed.

Yes, you quoted a section of the Catechism, however, you left out the next paragraph:

CCC 970: "Mary's function as mother of men in no way obscures or diminishes this unique mediation of Christ, but rather shows its power. But the Blessed Virgin's salutary influence on men . . . flows forth from the superabundance of the merits of Christ, rests on his mediation, depends entirely on it, and draws all its power from it." "No creature could ever be counted along with the Incarnate Word and Redeemer; but just as the priesthood of Christ is shared in various ways both by his ministers and the faithful, and as the one goodness of God is radiated in different ways among his creatures, so also the unique mediation of the Redeemer does not exclude but rather gives rise to a manifold cooperation which is but a sharing in this one source."

Christ is the only mediator. Catholicism does not claim otherwise. Mr. Mizzi's view of Mary and priests in the Catholic Church rests on a misunderstanding of the role of Mary and of priests-- and a heavy presupposition that does not exist anywhere in the teachings of the Catholic faith.

 

[Gary]

No need for a Mediatrix; no need for a few select "priests"
(Mediatrix is the feminine form of Mediator)

Again, I repeat... I need no "Mediatrix", I need no "priest" except Jesus Christ, who is called the 'High Priest of our confession' (Hebrews 3:1)

You have failed to make the case for a "mediatrix". You have given no Scripture to support that case. Where is Mary shown as a Mediatrix in Scripture? CCC970 has no Biblical references. http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p123a9p6.htm#970

But the Blessed Virgin's salutary influence on men . . . flows forth from the superabundance of the merits of Christ, rests on his mediation, depends entirely on it, and draws all its power from it."

Roman Catholicism teaches that Mary has "salutary influence".... whatever that means. Why not supply a bible chapter/verse to support this concept.

Jesus is my only Mediator. That is what the Bible teaches.

You have failed to make the case for Roman Catholic priests. Christ has made every believer a priest, not a select few. Peter writes that every true believer is a member of a "royal priesthood" (1 Peter 2:9). All believers are "being built up as a spiritual house for a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices" (1 Peter 2:5).

The errors in the concepts of Roman Catholc priesthood are contained in CCC 1599, 1548, 1411, 1461, 1566, 1582, 611, 1337.

 

[CatholicXian]

Again, you've changed the subject. ;-) Thus, I suppose then we can see that Mr. Mizzi is wrong in claiming Catholicism teaches that there are mediators other than Christ, since you've not responded in this respect?


But if you'd like to discuss Mary as mediatrix, and the Catholic priesthood, then we can.


Catholicism does not deny the common priesthood of all believers. There are two different definitions of the word "priest". One type of "priest" is the "pastor", the other refers to common priesthood shared by all believers. CCC 1547 "The ministerial or hierarchical priesthood of bishops and priests, and the common priesthood of all the faithful participate, "each in its own proper way, in the one priesthood of Christ." While being "ordered one to another," they differ essentially. In what sense? While the common priesthood of the faithful is exercised by the unfolding of baptismal grace --a life of faith, hope, and charity, a life according to the Spirit--, the ministerial priesthood is at the service of the common priesthood. It is directed at the unfolding of the baptismal grace of all Christians. The ministerial priesthood is a means by which Christ unceasingly builds up and leads his Church."

Mary, as mediatrix, is a bit more complicated to understand. Marian doctrine and devotion is always hard for non-Catholics to understand because they fear losing sight of Christ. However, Mary's role in the Catholic Church is solely to lead to Christ.
Though I know you will disagree (perhaps we will have to discuss this as well), Mary's role as mediatrix comes from her spiritual motherhood of the Church which Catholics believe took place on the cross when Jesus gave John to Mary (John 19:26-27). It also flows from Mary's role as Queen of Heaven-- in the Old Testament the Queen was not the wife of the king, but the mother (for a king could have many wives, but only one mother). And it was the Queen who was the intercessor for the people. From the encyclical Lumen Gentium #62, "therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix. This, however, is so understood that is neither takes away anything from nor adds anything to the dignity and efficacy of Christ the one Mediator"

This, obviously is a very superficial treatment of the two. Perhaps you could pick and we can discuss it to its end?

 

[Gary]

One Mediator (no Mediatrix)

This whole thread has been about ONE MEDIATOR... that is what Joe Mizzi's article is headed. You diverted the topic. I have very clearly written several times about the Roman Catholic error in the other Mediator, the Mediatrix.

I have clearly shown my position. You have been unable to supply a single verse to support "Mediatrix" from the CCC.

Now you offer...

Mary's role as mediatrix comes from her spiritual motherhood of the Church which Catholics believe took place on the cross when Jesus gave John to Mary (John 19:26-27).

Again, please let's stop here. We have the term Mediatrix. That is the feminine form of the word mediator. We both agree that Jesus is the ONLY Mediator. Where is Mediatrix in the verses you quoted?

Secondly, where is this new concept of Mary's "spiritual motherhood of the church" in the verses?

When Jesus saw his mother there, and the disciple whom he loved standing nearby, he said to his mother, “Dear woman, here is your son,†and to the disciple, “Here is your mother.†From that time on, this disciple took her into his home. (John 19:26-27)

Even the Roman Catholic theologian Ludwig Ott confessess: "Express scriptural proofs (for Mediatrix) are lacking." Need I say more?

So I will stick to the clarity of Scripture which states that there is only ONE Mediator and therfore, by logic, no Mediatrix.

References: ONE God, ONE Mediator - 1 Timothy 2:5, John 10:1-11, John 14:6, Hebrews 1:2-3, Hebrews 10:12

 

[CatholicXian]

Gary, I have provided paragraphs from the Catechism and even from "Lumen Gentium" regarding the fact that Catholicism teaches that there is (and can only be) ONE mediator between God and man, and that that mediator is Jesus Christ.

Mary as Mediatrix does not take away from Christ as the sole mediator. Why? Because it can't! Mary is secondary mediator only insofar as Christ is the first mediator. Now, before you question secondary mediation... do you ask friends and family to pray for you? Of course, every Christian seeks prayers from another in addition to their own. This is secondary mediation.

For example, if I could set up a chart:
("-->"="ask/pray")
You-->Friend/Family Member-->Jesus-->God
is no different (by way of mediation) than:
You-->Mary/Saint in Heaven-->Jesus-->God

Jesus, still, and always is the bridge, because Jesus is the ONE, true mediator between God and man.

Also, before we start a big hullabaloo over the chart... Yes, the chart can (and often should) look like this:
You-->Jesus-->God

As to Mary's spiritual motherhood, the passage in John has been interpreted in such a fashion that the "beloved Disciple", John is representative of the Church, and thus, in this respect Mary becomes a spiritual mother of sorts for the Church. Now, I realize that you will perhaps disagree on this interpretation. Fair enough, much of the differences between Catholic Christianity and Protestant Christianity rests on interpretational differences. But, perhaps you can at least agree that if we take John to be symbolic of the Church in these passages, then we end up with Mary as the mother of the Church.

Also, you must remember to keep in mind CCC 487-- that all teachings of the Catholic Church in regards to Mary are meant to illumine Jesus, her son, and the Savior of the world. The stress in Marian doctrines is not on Mary, but ultimately on God.


Finally, as I am a college student, I do have a bit of work and studying to get done. I hope to be back to answer any further issues you would like to address tomorrow afternoon or so.

 

[Gary]

One Mediator (no Mediatrix)

I don't think that answers the objections.... but take your time.

You have offered no Scriptural basis for "Mediatrix". It cannot exist or the Roman Catholic theologians would have dreamt a twist to the Scriptures by now. It is a man-made theology/dogma proclaimed by Pope Pius XII in 1940. I am not sure of the exact date... but it matters little. For once I agree with your Roman Catholic theologian Ludwig Ott who confessess: "Express scriptural proofs (for Mediatrix) are lacking."

I still only have ONE Mediator... Jesus Christ. That is what the Bible teaches.

 

[Gary]

Praying to the dead = Mediatrix!!!

Mary as Mediatrix does not take away from Christ as the sole mediator. Why? Because it can't! Mary is secondary mediator only insofar as Christ is the first mediator. Now, before you question secondary mediation... do you ask friends and family to pray for you? Of course, every Christian seeks prayers from another in addition to their own. This is secondary mediation.

Gary: Big difference. My friends are ALIVE. I call them on the phone and ask them to pray for me. Again, please supply Scriptural proof that the Apostles or the early Christians prayed to the dead.

.... but all of this does NOT negate the fact that there is NOTHING to support your "mediatrix" nor the dogma that Mary has "salutary influence".... whatever that means. Why not supply a bible chapter/verse to support this concept?