Joel 3

[Drummer4Christ]

Joel 3

The Nations Judged

1 "In those days and at that time,
when I restore the fortunes of Judah and Jerusalem,
2 I will gather all nations
and bring them down to the Valley of Jehoshaphat.
There I will put them on trial
for what they did to my inheritance, my people Israel,
because they scattered my people among the nations
and divided up my land.
3 They cast lots for my people
and traded boys for prostitutes;
they sold girls for wine to drink.
4 “Now what have you against me, Tyre and Sidon and all you regions of Philistia? Are you repaying me for something I have done? If you are paying me back, I will swiftly and speedily return on your own heads what you have done. 5 For you took my silver and my gold and carried off my finest treasures to your temples. 6 You sold the people of Judah and Jerusalem to the Greeks, that you might send them far from their homeland.

7 “See, I am going to rouse them out of the places to which you sold them, and I will return on your own heads what you have done. 8 I will sell your sons and daughters to the people of Judah, and they will sell them to the Sabeans, a nation far away.” The LORD has spoken.

9 Proclaim this among the nations:
Prepare for war!
Rouse the warriors!
Let all the fighting men draw near and attack.
10 Beat your plowshares into swords
and your pruning hooks into spears.
Let the weakling say,
“I am strong!”
11 Come quickly, all you nations from every side,
and assemble there.

Bring down your warriors, LORD!

12 “Let the nations be roused;
let them advance into the Valley of Jehoshaphat,
for there I will sit
to judge all the nations on every side.
13 Swing the sickle,
for the harvest is ripe.
Come, trample the grapes,
for the winepress is full
and the vats overflow—
so great is their wickedness!”

14 Multitudes, multitudes
in the valley of decision!
For the day of the LORD is near
in the valley of decision.
15 The sun and moon will be darkened,
and the stars no longer shine.
16 The LORD will roar from Zion
and thunder from Jerusalem;
the earth and the heavens will tremble.
But the LORD will be a refuge for his people,
a stronghold for the people of Israel.

Blessings for God’s People

17 “Then you will know that I, the LORD your God,
dwell in Zion, my holy hill.
Jerusalem will be holy;
never again will foreigners invade her.
18 “In that day the mountains will drip new wine,
and the hills will flow with milk;
all the ravines of Judah will run with water.
A fountain will flow out of the LORD’s house
and will water the valley of acacias.
19 But Egypt will be desolate,
Edom a desert waste,
because of violence done to the people of Judah,
in whose land they shed innocent blood.
20 Judah will be inhabited forever
and Jerusalem through all generations.
21 Shall I leave their innocent blood unavenged?
No, I will not.”

The LORD dwells in Zion!

Is this "literal" Israel or "figurative" Israel that was divided?

If "literal", when did God judge the nations for "literally" dividing up His land?

If "figurative", when did God judge the nations for dividing up the body of believers grafted into God's people by way of the new Covenant?

 

[Sinthesis]

Is this "literal" Israel or "figurative" Israel that was divided?

If "literal", when did God judge the nations for "literally" dividing up His land?

If "figurative", when did God judge the nations for dividing up the body of believers grafted into God's people by way of the new Covenant?

It is both literal and figurative, but the figurative Israel in this case is not just"the body of believers grafted into God's people by way of the new Covenant".

What has happened to the cultures which benefited from the calamities visited upon God's People throughout history?

 

[Drummer4Christ]

It is both literal and figurative, but the figurative Israel in this case is not just"the body of believers grafted into God's people by way of the new Covenant".

When did the division of both take place and when were both "scattered among the nations"?

What has happened to the cultures which benefited from the calamities visited upon God's People throughout history?

Verse 4 mentions Tyre, Sidon, and Philistia. When did God judge these literal places? Or are these allegories for something/somewhere else, and if so, what/where?

Verse 8 mentions the "cultures" in judgement will be sold to a region inhabited by the "Sabeans". When were the "cultures" you are referring sold to the literal Sabeans. If the people known as the "Sabeans" is an allegory for something/someone else, what/who is God referring to?



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- New International Version unless noted otherwise

 

[smaller]

When did the division of both take place and when were both "scattered among the nations"?

There were multiple forms of defeat for the nation of Israel in the O.T.

The major division transpired when Judah and Benjamin were severed from the other 10 tribes, significant in that Judah (the Head, the Lawgiver) and Benjamin (son of the right hand) were the separated tribes from the balance of the body.

Israel of the flesh was scattered in 70 a.d. among the balance of the nations.

Tis deep subject matter. But relatively simple, once understood. Jesus was The Lion of the Tribe of Judah, the HEAD LAWGIVER of them all, the 'body' of Israel, which they 'all' collectively rejected. Many of these matters are couched in association studies, which fwiw, begin in Hebron, meaning 'associations.' Many interesting things happened in Hebron.

Verse 4 mentions Tyre, Sidon, and Philistia. When did God judge these literal places? Or are these allegories for something/somewhere else, and if so, what/where?

There are nations seen physically and there are nations invisible. Gergesites for example means 'dweller on clayey soil.' Again, association term. All of the warring tribes have association connections.

As to the nations all, they all remain under the curse of sin.

Verse 8 mentions the "cultures" in judgement will be sold to a region inhabited by the "Sabeans". When were the "cultures" you are referring sold to the literal Sabeans. If the people known as the "Sabeans" is an allegory for something/someone else, what/who is God referring to?

Sabean means drunkards.

There is literal understanding. There is spiritual understanding. Both are true.

The two rarely meet and never agree.

enjoy!

s

 

[Drummer4Christ]

There were multiple forms of defeat for the nation of Israel in the O.T.

The major division transpired when Judah and Benjamin were severed from the other 10 tribes, significant in that Judah (the Head, the Lawgiver) and Benjamin (son of the right hand) were the separated tribes from the balance of the body.

So this is the "division" being referred to?

Israel of the flesh was scattered in 70 a.d. among the balance of the nations.

Or this "division"?

Tis deep subject matter. But relatively simple, once understood. Jesus was The Lion of the Tribe of Judah, the HEAD LAWGIVER of them all, the 'body' of Israel, which they 'all' collectively rejected. Many of these matters are couched in association studies, which fwiw, begin in Hebron, meaning 'associations.' Many interesting things happened in Hebron.

What is being "associated" with what, and how does one determine the relevant "association"? Are you saying that the events that transpired in Hebron are "associated" with the events being described in Joel 3? If so, what Scripture are you using to come to this conclusion?

There are nations seen physically and there are nations invisible. Gergesites for example means 'dweller on clayey soil.' Again, association term. All of the warring tribes have association connections.

Concerning Joel 3, which nations are visible/invisible? How does one determine between the two?

How are the "Gergesites" associated with the cities of Tyre & Sidon and the region of Philistia? Because of their "warring"?

As to the nations all, they all remain under the curse of sin.

Where in the text are you drawing this conclusion?

Sabean means drunkards.

So these "associated" nations/tribes/whoever will be sold to a far away region filled with drunks?






---
- New International Version unless noted otherwise

 

[smaller]

So this is the "division" being referred to?

Uh, in typology. The 'real' division was shown and operated by God in Christ when he separated the 'real' but unseen enemies from 'within' mankind, that being Satan and devils. What we see in the O.T. ALL points to that. And even that showing was a showing of the ultimate and final separation yet to come when they receive the permanent boot to the LOF.

Or this "division"?

All captivities, battles, splits and judgments with Israel and the surrounding enemies and with Israel themselves are 'physical pictures' of what Jesus eventually came to show.

Jesus couldn't have cared less if Israel was under Roman enemy occupation. There was a far more important captivity He came to expose. None of the Prophets of Israel saw this matter, but spoke of same via the Spirit of Jesus Christ.

What is being "associated" with what, and how does one determine the relevant "association"? Are you saying that the events that transpired in Hebron are "associated" with the events being described in Joel 3? If so, what Scripture are you using to come to this conclusion?

Associations, allegories, parables, typology etc are lifetime studies. You just have to dig in with the simple principle above in mind and it WILL come to you on every page.

I have found these links to be helpful to speed up the process:

BibleGateway.com - Keyword Search: cut pieces

Linked Word Project ~ Genesis 1 ~ The Linked Word Project

It also helps to stay in The Word, always. You will be led, hopefully, eventually. Questions are always first.

Concerning Joel 3, which nations are visible/invisible? How does one determine between the two?

The entirety of Joel 3 is an 'end time' prophecy. The terms employed therein concern that on the association level.

How are the "Gergesites" associated with the cities of Tyre & Sidon and the region of Philistia? Because of their "warring"?

As stated above, the 'real' captivity of mankind is with SIN and SIN is OF THE DEVIL. Israel of the O.T. was an 'external' showing of this 'internal' fact.

Where in the text are you drawing this conclusion?

Romans 7:14
For we know that the law is spiritual:

John 6:63
It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

1 Corinthians 2:13
Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

Paul gives a most fine deployment of his methodology in 1 Cor. 2:13 here directly from the O.T.

Gal. 4:
22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman. 23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.
28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.


Is the BONDwoman really Hagar of the flesh? No. The covenant of GODS LAW is against THE LAWLESS and the LAWLESS are the devil and his messengers whom Jesus CLEARLY showed to be within multitudes of Israel.


Paul and John the Apostles extended this same fact to ALL GENTILES as well.


The devil, Satan has a Nation. That 'nation' is MYSTERY BABYLON. All Babylon writings also point directly to THIS ASSOCIATION.


When Israel was 'captured' by Babylon, it again was showing the INNER PROBLEM in an EXTERNAL WAY.

So these "associated" nations/tribes/whoever will be sold to a far away region filled with drunks?

There is physical drunkenness and there is spiritual drunkenness.

Revelation 17:6
And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints,

You could drink 'blood' all day and not 'get physically drunk.' Drunkenness is an ANTI-spiritual state. So it is with many things in the text. There is the physical showing of a matter and there is the spiritual connotations associated with same.

As stated prior, one has to do quite a sum of homework. Almost ALL of what is depicted physically contains spiritual connotations and connections and the sum of them all revolves around the PRIMARY PLAYERS in the drama of mankind. For a list of players see Mark 4.

Mark 4:13
And he said unto them, Know ye not this parable? and how then will ye know all parables?

The players in the drama are up front and simple. Mankind and THE DEVIL.

Jesus' Words therein are one of the keys to unlock the spiritual connections.

Without that understanding one will merely wallow around scratching their head and getting into pointless arguments and NEVER see the UNseen that the text is really engaged with.

enjoy!

s

 

[Sinthesis]

When did the division of both take place and when were both "scattered among the nations"?

The "division" is the plunder of people and property prophesied to take place as Judea, and by extension Judaism and Christianity, was for all worldly appearances destroyed by pagan Rome.

Verse 4 mentions Tyre, Sidon, and Philistia. When did God judge these literal places? Or are these allegories for something/somewhere else, and if so, what/where?

Joel is using the events of and prior to the first Diasporas as a template for the next. Thus he is equating the 'to them' future enemies of God's People with both their historic as well as 'to them' contemporary enemies. Tyre, Sidon, and Philistia are three literal cultures who benefited from and delighted in the fall of the kingdoms of Israel and Judah. God sent them Alexander in judgment and they fell into history. A similar fate has befallen Ancient Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Persia, Pagan Greece, Pagan Rome, and countless barbarian cultures throughout history. Joel 3 is a prophetic metaphor for the various triumphs of the Judeo-Christian culture over the past two millenniums.

Verse 8 mentions the "cultures" in judgement will be sold to a region inhabited by the "Sabeans". When were the "cultures" you are referring sold to the literal Sabeans. If the people known as the "Sabeans" is an allegory for something/someone else, what/who is God referring to?

Ask Alexander the Great. As for the "Sabeans" meaning "Distant drunks", then they're probably French-Canadians.

 

[Drummer4Christ]

The "division" is the plunder of people and property prophesied to take place as Judea, and by extension Judaism and Christianity, was for all worldly appearances destroyed by pagan Rome.



Joel is using the events of and prior to the first Diasporas as a template for the next. Thus he is equating the 'to them' future enemies of God's People with both their historic as well as 'to them' contemporary enemies. Tyre, Sidon, and Philistia are three literal cultures who benefited from and delighted in the fall of the kingdoms of Israel and Judah. God sent them Alexander in judgment and they fell into history. A similar fate has befallen Ancient Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Persia, Pagan Greece, Pagan Rome, and countless barbarian cultures throughout history. Joel 3 is a prophetic metaphor for the various triumphs of the Judeo-Christian culture over the past two millenniums.

Thanks for the clarification, Sinthesis. I appreciate the info.

Ask Alexander the Great. As for the "Sabeans" meaning "Distant drunks", then they're probably French-Canadians.

lol I appreciate your sense of humor as well

I do not disagree with the literal/figurative interpretation you have laid out. However, would you agree that modern Lebanon (Tyre & Sidon) and modern Palestine (Philistia) along with other "nations" are currently advocating for the literal division (if not the outright destruction) of the nation of Israel into separate Jewish and Arab states? Doesn't it strike you as a bit prophetic that (with the exception of wether or not Magog is Russia) every context in the Bible where God issues a judgement/Christ is fighting against a "pagan" nation, those areas are now dominated by Islam & Shari'a Law? Including the Eastern parts of the former Roman/Greek empire(s)?

Especially in light of Galatians 4 concerning the children of the free woman vs the children of the slave woman?



---
- New International Version unless noted otherwise

 

[Sinthesis]

I do not disagree with the literal/figurative interpretation you have laid out. However, would you agree that modern Lebanon (Tyre & Sidon) and modern Palestine (Philistia) along with other "nations" are currently advocating for the literal division (if not the outright destruction) of the nation of Israel into separate Jewish and Arab states? Doesn't it strike you as a bit prophetic that (with the exception of wether or not Magog is Russia) every context in the Bible where God issues a judgement/Christ is fighting against a "pagan" nation, those areas are now dominated by Islam & Shari'a Law? Including the Eastern parts of the former Roman/Greek empire(s)?

Especially in light of Galatians 4 concerning the children of the free woman vs the children of the slave woman?

I do agree it appears prophetic, but I don't believe Joel 3 applies to the conflict between Judaism/Christianity and Islam. That conflict is prophesied elsewhere in the Bible, but it will end the same way.

 

[Drummer4Christ]

I do agree it appears prophetic, but I don't believe Joel 3 applies to the conflict between Judaism/Christianity and Islam.

What about Joel 3 applying to modern Israel as a sovereign nation, considering God refers to it as "my land"?

That conflict is prophesied elsewhere in the Bible, but it will end the same way.

I'm all ears (eyes?)

 

[jasoncran]

The "division" is the plunder of people and property prophesied to take place as Judea, and by extension Judaism and Christianity, was for all worldly appearances destroyed by pagan Rome.



Joel is using the events of and prior to the first Diasporas as a template for the next. Thus he is equating the 'to them' future enemies of God's People with both their historic as well as 'to them' contemporary enemies. Tyre, Sidon, and Philistia are three literal cultures who benefited from and delighted in the fall of the kingdoms of Israel and Judah. God sent them Alexander in judgment and they fell into history. A similar fate has befallen Ancient Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Persia, Pagan Greece, Pagan Rome, and countless barbarian cultures throughout history. Joel 3 is a prophetic metaphor for the various triumphs of the Judeo-Christian culture over the past two millenniums.



Ask Alexander the Great. As for the "Sabeans" meaning "Distant drunks", then they're probably French-Canadians.

nice shot at the quebecers.lol