John 6:53-58

[tjw]

John 6:53-58:
53Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

54Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

55For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.

56He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.

57As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.

58This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se ... ersion=KJV



What do these verses mean to you?

 

[Tina]

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The flesh and blood of the Son of man, denote the Redeemer in the nature of man; Christ and him crucified, and the redemption wrought out by him, with all the precious benefits of redemption; pardon of sin, acceptance with God, the way to the throne of grace, the promises of the covenant, and eternal life. These are called the flesh and blood of Christ, because they are purchased by the breaking his body, and the shedding of his blood. Also, because they are meat and drink to our souls. Eating this flesh and drinking this blood mean believing in Christ. We partake of Christ and his benefits by faith. The soul that rightly knows its state and wants, finds whatever can calm the conscience, and promote true holiness, in the redeemer, God manifest in the flesh. Meditating upon the cross of Christ gives life to our repentance, love, and gratitude. We live by him, as our bodies live by our food. We live by him, as the members by the head, the branches by the root: because he lives we shall live also. (Jn 6:60-65)


Source is from the same link you provided ....

http://www.biblegateway.com/resources/c ... itude-3511

 

[dadof10]

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The flesh and blood of the Son of man, denote the Redeemer in the nature of man; Christ and him crucified, and the redemption wrought out by him, with all the precious benefits of redemption; pardon of sin, acceptance with God, the way to the throne of grace, the promises of the covenant, and eternal life. These are called the flesh and blood of Christ, because they are purchased by the breaking his body, and the shedding of his blood. Also, because they are meat and drink to our souls. Eating this flesh and drinking this blood mean believing in Christ. We partake of Christ and his benefits by faith. The soul that rightly knows its state and wants, finds whatever can calm the conscience, and promote true holiness, in the redeemer, God manifest in the flesh. Meditating upon the cross of Christ gives life to our repentance, love, and gratitude. We live by him, as our bodies live by our food. We live by him, as the members by the head, the branches by the root: because he lives we shall live also. (Jn 6:60-65)


Source is from the same link you provided ....

http://www.biblegateway.com/resources/c ... itude-3511

Why does Mr. Henry ignore the plain words of Scripture for a novel interpretation? Jesus is obviously talking about His actual Body and Blood, otherwise the reaction of His hearers makes no sense.

 

[Tina]

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That's according to your Catholic interpretation. In today's context, the bread doesn't turn into His flesh and wine into His blood, do they ?

 

[RichardBurger]

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The flesh and blood of the Son of man, denote the Redeemer in the nature of man; Christ and him crucified, and the redemption wrought out by him, with all the precious benefits of redemption; pardon of sin, acceptance with God, the way to the throne of grace, the promises of the covenant, and eternal life. These are called the flesh and blood of Christ, because they are purchased by the breaking his body, and the shedding of his blood. Also, because they are meat and drink to our souls. Eating this flesh and drinking this blood mean believing in Christ. We partake of Christ and his benefits by faith. The soul that rightly knows its state and wants, finds whatever can calm the conscience, and promote true holiness, in the redeemer, God manifest in the flesh. Meditating upon the cross of Christ gives life to our repentance, love, and gratitude. We live by him, as our bodies live by our food. We live by him, as the members by the head, the branches by the root: because he lives we shall live also. (Jn 6:60-65)


Source is from the same link you provided ....

http://www.biblegateway.com/resources/c ... itude-3511

Why does Mr. Henry ignore the plain words of Scripture for a novel interpretation? Jesus is obviously talking about His actual Body and Blood, otherwise the reaction of His hearers makes no sense.

Jesus' body was changed and He went to heaven. So how can you eat of His physical flesh and drink His physical blood?

It is a fact that the book of John does not record what Jesus said about bread and drink at His last meal. Instead John writes about foot washing. If what we call the Lord's Supper was related to what John said in John 6 then surely John would have gone into more detail about it.

 

[francisdesales]

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That's according to your Catholic interpretation. In today's context, the bread doesn't turn into His flesh and wine into His blood, do they ?

What do you mean "in today's context", Tina?

The Eucharist is a memorial act that brings the past into the present, so the context of the Eucharistic celebration is meant to be the same.

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

It is a fact that the book of John does not record what Jesus said about bread and drink at His last meal. Instead John writes about foot washing. If what we call the Lord's Supper was related to what John said in John 6 then surely John would have gone into more detail about it.

John doesn't write about it because the other three Gospels include the Last Supper memorial. John obviously doesn't repeat everything already mentioned in the Synoptics. John 6 clearly sets up the meaning of Christ's words at the Last Supper, as well as stating that Jesus is the "Lamb of God". The Jew would readily understand what we do with the Lamb at the Passover Meal and the purpose of eathing this Lamb...

Regards

 

[Tina]

The Eucharist is a memorial act that brings the past into the present, so the context of the Eucharistic celebration is meant to be the same.

You haven't answered my question ... Does the bread turn into flesh and the wine turn into blood ? ... Or is it just an imagination ??

 

[mondar]

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...These are called the flesh and blood of Christ, because they are purchased by the breaking his body, and the shedding of his blood. Also, because they are meat and drink to our souls. Eating this flesh and drinking this blood mean believing in Christ. We partake of Christ and his benefits by faith....

Source is from the same link you provided ....

http://www.biblegateway.com/resources/c ... itude-3511

Tina, while I certainly agree with the author you quoted, I think the context of John 6 says far more clearly. I speak specifically of John 6:35. John 6:35 is the interpretive key to the whole context. Many will read their own theology back into this context, but verse 35 is formidable, and refuses to allow such anachronistic reading of the text. Tina, I ask you to stay focused in verse 35 for that is the verse that justifies your comments on faith.

35And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

So then, in the context of chapter 6, how do we eat his flesh and drink his blood? Only by coming and only by believing! Faith is the issue. Nothing more then faith, and faith alone is the issue.
If the one who "cometh to me shall never hunger" and the one who "believeth on me shall never thirst." Coming and believing are not two different things, but are one in the same. This also can be seen in the context. Notice the language...

37All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
40And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

My point is that believing and coming are one and the same thing. So then, in verse 35, the one who "believes" has eaten of his flesh and drunk his blood. The issue here is not taking communion, or the sacraments, or the Eucharist. As a matter of fact, the lords table is not yet instituted. It is still future. In fact, verse 35 clearly makes this an issue of faith, and not anything related to the later institution of the Lords Table.

Of course many detractors will refuse to include the guiding verse of the context in the discussion, but stay focused on verse 35.

Tina, I hope we agree that sin was conquered completely and absolutely at the cross. Christ did it all at the cross! Salvation was completely secured. It was a once and for all redemption. Christ died once for sin. There is no "none bloody" sacrifice for sins since sin. Sin was conquered once and for all and was forgiven at the cross. Hebrews 9 says...
28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

There is salvation is nothing else but the cross and the cross alone. So then, I urge you to speak of verse 35.

 

[francisdesales]

The Eucharist is a memorial act that brings the past into the present, so the context of the Eucharistic celebration is meant to be the same.

You haven't answered my question ... Does the bread turn into flesh and the wine turn into blood ? ... Or is it just an imagination ??

Yes to the former, no to the later.

It is what it has become.

Now, what does "in today's context" mean?

 

[JamesG]

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The context of these verses includes 6:63,

"It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life."

JamesG

 

[francisdesales]

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The context of these verses includes 6:63,

"It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life."

JamesG

Which is why the mind oriented on the things of the flesh will not understand the power of the Risen Lord and His ability to feed His flock through His own Person.

 

[JamesG]

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Or that the understanding of these verses is through the Spirit and not through the human mind alone.

JamesG

 

[francisdesales]

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Or that the understanding of these verses is through the Spirit and not through the human mind alone.

JamesG

Agree.

 

[dadof10]

Jesus' body was changed and He went to heaven.

Correct. But how does that change the clear words of Jesus?

So how can you eat of His physical flesh and drink His physical blood?

How can a virgin be with Child? How can God be both on Earth in human form and up in Heaven? God finds ways to accomplish His mission. Do you think it's POSSIBLE for God to change bread and wine into His Body and Blood?

It is a fact that the book of John does not record what Jesus said about bread and drink at His last meal. Instead John writes about foot washing. If what we call the Lord's Supper was related to what John said in John 6 then surely John would have gone into more detail about it.

I don't presume to know the reasons John wrote what he did and left out other scenes that he obviously knew about or witnessed first hand. I'm sure you'll agree that Jesus did more than what's written in all the Gospels combined. Again, that still doesn't change the clear words of Scripture or the REACTION of Jesus' "disciples" who left because of this "hard teaching".

 

[dadof10]

John 6:35 is the interpretive key to the whole context.

Why? Why isn't...say...verse 55: "For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed."?

Many will read their own theology back into this context,

You mean like picking out a verse that promotes their personal theology and calling it the "interpretive key"?

but verse 35 is formidable, and refuses to allow such anachronistic reading of the text. Tina, I ask you to stay focused in verse 35 for that is the verse that justifies your comments on faith.

It may justify a comment that faith is absolutely necessary for salvation (no one is denying that), but it doesn't justify a narrow reading of the rest of the discourse.

So then, in the context of chapter 6, how do we eat his flesh and drink his blood? Only by coming and only by believing! Faith is the issue.

True. Faith is necessary.

Nothing more then faith, and faith alone is the issue.

That's quite a leap, from "faith" to "ONLY faith". The rest of the discourse doesn't bear out your interpretation.

 

[dadof10]

The Eucharist is a memorial act that brings the past into the present, so the context of the Eucharistic celebration is meant to be the same.

You haven't answered my question ... Does the bread turn into flesh and the wine turn into blood ? ... Or is it just an imagination ??

Yes to the former, no to the later.

It is what it has become.

Now, what does "in today's context" mean?

I'd also like to know, Tina.

 

[Tina]

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You mean the bread literally turns into His flesh and the wine literally turns into His blood ?
Does it happen in all Catholic parishes today during Eucharist ?

 

[Vic C.]

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You mean the bread literally turns into His flesh and the wine literally turns into His blood ?
Does it happen in all Catholic parishes today during Eucharist ?

LOL, confusing, isn't it? It should not be. Mondar made some good points on the previous. I do not understand this passage without reading down to verse 63.

John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

The Spirit gives life, the flesh profits nothing. Could Jesus be suggesting there is something more here than just physical flesh and blood? After all, He says His very words He speaks are spirit and life.

 

[francisdesales]

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You mean the bread literally turns into His flesh and the wine literally turns into His blood ?
Does it happen in all Catholic parishes today during Eucharist ?

At every Catholic parish that validly and licitly celebrates the Death and Resurrection of Christ during the Mass, the elements of bread and wine become the sacramental flesh and blood of Jesus Christ. They are "sacramental" in that they appear to be bread and wine, but their reality, not visible to the senses, is the actual Body and Blood of Christ given for the sake of mankind to the Father as the perfect Sacrifice. This is why the Eucharist is called a sacrament of faith (just as all sacraments are based upon faith - we don't see the Holy Spirit in the water during Baptism, for example). We trust in the Words of Jesus Christ, Who seems adamant that He will give His flesh to be eaten (even if you don't understand why). It is sacramentally presented to the Apostles at the Last Supper and Catholic priests continue to "do this in remembrance of Me".

Regards