John H. Gerstner, Theology in Dialogue

[JM]

A quote that might be helpful.

C: No. God makes no promises to his unregenerate enemies.

I: You are a hard master.

C: I admit that these things are very stern, but I do remind you that a sinner is an enemy of God. He has declared war on God. You are such a sinner and you are at war with God.

I: Even though I am seeking God?

C: Yes, I cannot remind you too often that you are not truly seeking Him…. This is where Paul's use of that language in Romans 3 comes in. He says there that none seeks after God. What we means is that no one in his natural fallen state sincerely seeks after God. There are some in the fallen state who, shall I say, insincerely seek after God, as you are doing now….

I: What makes you say that the Bible says I do not mean what I say? Where does the Bible say that I do not want to come to Christ?

C: Christ says Himself, in John 3:19, "This is the condemnation, that light has come into the world and men love the darkness rather than the light." In other words, Christ says that unconverted persons do not come to Him who is the light of the world. They do not want to come to Him because they love the darkness and He is the light. According to your own confession, you are still an unconverted person. That means you are a lover of darkness, not of light. Consequently, you cannot sincerely want to come to Christ.

 

[unred typo]

A quote that might be helpful.

C: No. God makes no promises to his unregenerate enemies.

I: You are a hard master.

C: I admit that these things are very stern, but I do remind you that a sinner is an enemy of God. He has declared war on God. You are such a sinner and you are at war with God.

I: Even though I am seeking God?

C: Yes, I cannot remind you too often that you are not truly seeking Him…. This is where Paul's use of that language in Romans 3 comes in. He says there that none seeks after God. What we means is that no one in his natural fallen state sincerely seeks after God. There are some in the fallen state who, shall I say, insincerely seek after God, as you are doing now….

I: What makes you say that the Bible says I do not mean what I say? Where does the Bible say that I do not want to come to Christ?

C: Christ says Himself, in John 3:19, "This is the condemnation, that light has come into the world and men love the darkness rather than the light." In other words, Christ says that unconverted persons do not come to Him who is the light of the world. They do not want to come to Him because they love the darkness and He is the light. According to your own confession, you are still an unconverted person. That means you are a lover of darkness, not of light. Consequently, you cannot sincerely want to come to Christ.

:smt060 feel the love?

It’s helpful alright, ~JM~. You see in these few lines just how ridiculous Calvinism is. Your deluded friend says very plainly that he has a couple of verses (taken out of context however) that say even the person who is seeking God, is not seeking God. Clever. Any person who has any scriptural or scholastic integrity at all would not use these verses in this manner. Obviously, these people do not read with their minds in gear.
To be fair, Paul is notoriously “hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrestle, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction“ as Peter said of him. Of course this man is probably not unlearned so we have to go with the other option. :wink:

Romans 3 is Paul’s use of previous scripture to prove the point that physically being a Jew or being a Gentile does not guarantee a better position in God’s estimation. God’s use of the Jews to bring his messages to the world is not because they are better than other people or nations. To illustrate this point, Paul quotes scriptures that vividly show their apostasy in previous times when they worshipped idols and God was disgusted with them. There is no justification to applying these verses to the entire race of man as Calvinism has brainwashed so many to believe. Reading the quoted verses in their context in Psalms and Isaiah will make that crystal clear unless you are a wrestler of scripture making phony claims and blustery boasts in your oxymorons. :-?

John 3:19 would not even support his claim at all if he read the next three verses:
19â€ÂThis is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God."

By this portion we can see that the exact opposite is true to what ~JM~’s theologian has stated. Those who live by the truth are living by God’s instructions and come to the light. They seek God because they have seen his ways are best and have been living according to love and peace. All love is from God and those who love unselfishly are abiding in God because God is love. Those who love evil will hate the light of love and peace that Jesus taught.

:smt070 :smt060

 

[JM]

unred, provide scripture that tells us men who are not saved love God or better yet, seek after God.

Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, THERE IS NONE THAT SEEKETH AFTER GOD.

John 8:44 "why can't you hear the words of God?"

Joh 8:47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

If you could, find a definition of "enmity" for us. I did a google and the first result reads, "Deep-seated, often mutual hatred."

It's impossible for the non-believer to exist on neutural ground, your conclusions are foolish.

~JM~

 

[Drew]

unred, provide scripture that tells us men who are not saved love God or better yet, seek after God.

I suspect that I know how this will play out. Those of us who believe Calvinism is incorrect will provide verses that exhort the reader to "seek" after God such as Deut 4:29

But if from there you seek the LORD your God, you will find him if you look for him with all your heart and with all your soul

The argument will go something along the lines of "if we are exhorted to seek, we certainly are capable of doing so".

You will respond that such texts say nothing about "ability". The problem then becomes one of determining the strength of the Calvinist case to the effect that man has no ability. You will protest that, for example, Romans 3:11 declares inability. Unred will counter-argue as he has done in the last post or so.

My point is that you simply cannot expect the reader to accept your take on Romans 3:11 in the presence of what I, and perhaps others, consider to be a compelling counter-argument from unred that Romans 3 is really addressing a different issue altogether.

Can you articulate a reason why unred's take on Romans 3 is not correct?

 

[unred typo]

unred, provide scripture that tells us men who are not saved love God or better yet, seek after God.

Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, THERE IS NONE THAT SEEKETH AFTER GOD.

John 8:44 "why can't you hear the words of God?"

Joh 8:47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

If you could, find a definition of "enmity" for us. I did a google and the first result reads, "Deep-seated, often mutual hatred."
It's impossible for the non-believer to exist on neutural ground, your conclusions are foolish.

Romans 3:11 Just as ‘all’ “does not always mean ‘all’,†neither does ‘none’ always mean ‘none’. In this case, it means those fools who say that God doesn’t exist, whether they are Jews or Gentiles, there is no difference. There are no fools who seek after God, no, not one. They are the children of men and not children of God because of their evil actions and hatred against their fellowman and their creator who commands them to love one another. They are of their father the Devil because they follow him and not Christ and they do the lusts of their father. Jesus plainly tells how we can become children of God in Matthew 5:44-45.

When God tells the lost to seek him, and calls all men everywhere to repent, he does mean ‘all’ and not just ‘all’ those who he has enabled to seek him. He has not asked anyone to seek him in vain. He that seeks, finds. He that knocks, it shall be opened unto him.

Calvinsim says that all men are counted sinners so that God may have mercy upon a few, but

God says that the few who are righteous are numbered with the sinners, so that he may have mercy upon all.

The standard for heaven was raised to perfection, so that all could be counted sinners and all could avail themselves of the blood of Christ to become perfect before God, “both those that are near, and those who are afar off.†The filthiest sinner who truly repents of his wickedness will be perfectly washed, whiter than snow, cleaner than even a righteous man like Enoch, who walked with God.

Your doctrines blaspheme God and make him appear to be a deceiver who falsely pretends to love sinners and feignedly calls men to repent, knowing full well that they are hopelessly unable to seek him, because he has not given them the faith to believe. Even if they are desperately seeking him in their human strength, you say they are self deluded, but in reality, it is your god who deludes them. Thankfully, such heresy is not true and when God says of those who worship him in spirit and in truth, that “he seeks such to worship him,†it is not a sham. Psalm 103:17-18.

If you could, find a definition of "enmity" for us.

Lose your dictionary, ~JM~? As a “a staunched Calvinist, a staunched conservative, a staunched Biblicist,†you really should learn the meaning of “staunchedâ€Â:

stanch [stawnch, stanch]
(past stanched, past participle stanched, present participle stanch·ing, 3rd person present singular stanch·es) or staunch [stáwnch] (past staunched, past participle staunched, present participle staunch·ing, 3rd person present singular staunch·es)
v
1. vti stop liquid flow: to stop the flow of a liquid, particularly blood, or be stopped from flowing
2. vt stop wound from bleeding: to stop a wound from bleeding or exuding pus
3. vt assuage something: to assuage or allay something that is bad (archaic)

[14th century. Via Old French estanchier from assumed Vulgar Latin stanticare , literally “to cause to stand,†from Latin stant- , present participle stem of stare (see station).]
Encarta ® World English Dictionary © & (P) 1998-2004 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.

I thought you meant, ‘staunch’ but actually, I like ‘staunched’ better. You should be staunched. Your theological poison is lethal to the unstable and the unlearned.

p.s. please don’t think I hold any enmity against you personally. I only hate the doctrines you exude.

 

[JM]

You must be kidding, my post was dripping with sacasm...get a dictionary and a

cause you need it.

http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopi ... 229#319229

 

[unred typo]

You must be kidding, my post was dripping with sacasm...get a dictionary and a

cause you need it.

http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopi ... 229#319229

What you need are ‘on-topic’ guard rails to force you into answering the post and not straying off the topic. The post wasn’t all about you. It was about John H. Gerstner and his Theology in Dialogue and how distorted and contrived it is. Wouldn’t you rather defend your position on that than quibble over a little sarcasm? Are you purposefully trying to derail your own thread?

Here is the important part of my post again, for your convenience and reading pleasure:
Romans 3:11 Just as ‘all’ “does not always mean ‘all’,†neither does ‘none’ always mean ‘none’. In this case, it means those fools who say that God doesn’t exist, whether they are Jews or Gentiles, there is no difference. There are no fools who seek after God, no, not one. They are the children of men and not children of God because of their evil actions and hatred against their fellowman and their creator who commands them to love one another. They are of their father the Devil because they follow him and not Christ and they do the lusts of their father. Jesus plainly tells how we can become children of God in Matthew 5:44-45.

When God tells the lost to seek him, and calls all men everywhere to repent, he does mean ‘all’ and not just ‘all’ those who he has enabled to seek him. He has not asked anyone to seek him in vain. He that seeks, finds. He that knocks, it shall be opened unto him.

Calvinism says that all men are counted sinners so that God may have mercy upon a few, but

God says that the few who are righteous are numbered with the sinners, so that he may have mercy upon all.

The standard for heaven was raised to perfection, so that all could be counted sinners and all could avail themselves of the blood of Christ to become perfect before God, “both those that are near, and those who are afar off.†The filthiest sinner who truly repents of his wickedness will be perfectly washed, whiter than snow, cleaner than even a righteous man like Enoch, who walked with God.

Your doctrines blaspheme God and make him appear to be a deceiver who falsely pretends to love sinners and feignedly calls men to repent, knowing full well that they are hopelessly unable to seek him, because he has not given them the faith to believe. Even if they are desperately seeking him in their human strength, you say they are self deluded, but in reality, it is your god who deludes them. Thankfully, such heresy is not true and hen God says of those who worship him in spirit and in truth, that “he seeks such to worship him,†it is not a sham. Psalm 103:17-18.

8-)

 

[JM]

You really are a doofis, see the link for context.

 

[Drew]

unred, provide scripture that tells us men who are not saved love God or better yet, seek after God.

Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, THERE IS NONE THAT SEEKETH AFTER GOD.

Romans 3:11 Just as ‘all’ “does not always mean ‘all’,†neither does ‘none’ always mean ‘none’. In this case, it means those fools who say that God doesn’t exist, whether they are Jews or Gentiles, there is no difference. There are no fools who seek after God, no, not one.

JM: Unless I am mistaken, you have at times argued that the word "all" sometimes does not really mean "all", such as in texts which express the notion that God wishes "all" to be saved. Fair enough - you can indeed claim that context demands that the word "all" not be taken at face value. But unred makes a similar kind of response in respect to the word "none" as per Romans 3:11, arguing that "none" does not really mean "none".

I presume that you are aware of the problem this creates. You need to rule out the possibility that unred is advocating for - or at least provide a compelling argument against unred's take. And of course your argument cannot be something like "Romans 3:11 says none, so none it is". If you did that you would render your position vulnerable to the criticism that, by the same "I take 'em as I reads 'em" argument, that "all really means all" in those texts that express the notion that God wishes "all" be saved.

 

[unred typo]

You really are a doofis, see the link for context.

I did go to your link. I didn’t see anything particularly pertaining your picture so I assume you mean your exposition on Romans 3 there is how you want to reply to my post here. (Is that guy with the sarcasm detector another artist rendition of you? I thought you were growing a beard?)

When I reply to your new ‘Romans 3’ thread, should I answer your post there or here? What would be really nice is if you would separate out the things that pertain to my post that was in reply to your Mr. Gerstner’s strange discussion.
That would be so decent of you. 8-)