Judas called the son of perdition

[Sinthesis]

archangel's

[quote:22bm9qgk]precepts wrote:
Yeah, like whole wheat communion bread.

If that's the case show us the unleavened bread.

I'll do better than that, Julius Ceasar was the 1st Pontiff Maximus (63 B.C.), elected by a college of pontiffs (priests) who were responsible for the roman calendar, feastdays, etc.. [/quote:22bm9qgk]
Don't even go there.

As for the OT:

Judas subscribed to a view of the promised Messiah that was contrary to what Jesus was going to do. At the Last Supper Judas realized that Jesus was not going to fulfill his false idea of a world conquering Jewish messiah, complete with worldly riches for his followers. It was then Judas decided to at least cut his losses and turn Jesus in for 30 pieces of silver. This idea of God providing a material-world conquering messiah is what eventually led to the complete destruction of the Jewish Temple system in 70AD. Hence "Son of Perdition".

 

[JudaicChristian]

Judas subscribed to a view of the promised Messiah that was contrary to what Jesus was going to do. At the Last Supper Judas realized that Jesus was not going to fulfill his false idea of a world conquering Jewish messiah, complete with worldly riches for his followers. It was then Judas decided to at least cut his losses and turn Jesus in for 30 pieces of silver. This idea of God providing a material-world conquering messiah is what eventually led to the complete destruction of the Jewish Temple system in 70AD. Hence "Son of Perdition".

That was well said. It does seem that everyone creates an image of what they think God should do or be like. The Jews did not believe because they did not want to see the parts of scripture about a suffering Messiah; instead they were focused on his second coming with power and glory.

 

[JudaicChristian]

In Arabic morphology, the word Shaytaan is used to refer to any peson or jinn/demon who embodies evil and deceit. when a human is refered to in this context they are called Shaytaan ul Uns. When refering to the big satan i.e. Lucifer, in Arabic he is refered to as Iblees the accursed. This could explain the in-congruity. If the original text was in Aramaic, a semetic language, Judas could have been called a Shaytaan. Its hard to know since the original Aramaic texts are gone.

Aramaic was the spoken language in the days of Yahshua and those of his utterances preserved in the original are in Aramaic (Matt 27:46; Mark 5:41). Many scholars maintain that the Greek gospels were composed on the basis of oral traditions originally in Aramaic.

 

[veteran]

John 17:12
12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Thy name: those that Thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
(KJV)

There's the reason Judas would betray our Lord, because the Scripture had to be fulfilled. The next question might be, why would Judas be chosen for that role?

John 12:5-6
5 Why was not this ointment sold for three hundred pence, and given to the poor?
6 This he said, not that he cared for the poor; but because he was a thief, and had the bag, and bare what was put therein.
(KJV)

Judas "had the bag", meaning he was keeper of the money. Judas was covetous, not exactly a mark of a true follower of Christ. This shows Judas was there for his own aims, of what he could gain. That's clearly a sign that Judas had a different nature than the rest of Christ's Apostles.

John 6:70-71
70 Jesus answered them, "Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?"
71 He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray Him, being one of the twelve.
(KJV)

There our Lord Jesus called Judas "a devil".

The word 'perdition' is from the Greek word 'apollumi' (to destroy fully, to perish - Strong's no. 622). Apollyon in Rev.9:11 is given as another title for Satan, and that title also comes from the Greek word 'apollumi'. It should be obvious that Judas served in a role as Satan's servant, even by Satan's spirit entering him to betray our Lord Jesus. What Judas did was a singular act by one man, not many sons of perditions.


II Th 2:3-10
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
(KJV)

Likewise in 2 Thess.2, the acts of the "son of perdition" in it is by a singular entity. We know the one Paul mentions is not Judas, because Judas was already dead by that time. The tense Paul uses in 2 Thess.2 about the "son of perdition" he was speaking of is singular tense, not plural.

 

[precepts]

sinthesis'

Don't even go there.

Yes, sir!


sinthesis'

As for the OT:
Judas subscribed to a view of the promised Messiah that was contrary to what Jesus was going to do. At the Last Supper Judas realized that Jesus was not going to fulfill his false idea of a world conquering Jewish messiah, complete with worldly riches for his followers. It was then Judas decided to at least cut his losses and turn Jesus in for 30 pieces of silver. This idea of God providing a material-world conquering messiah is what eventually led to the complete destruction of the Jewish Temple system in 70AD. Hence "Son of Perdition"

sinthesis 2:4-5

 

[JudaicChristian]

And many more scholars maintain that the apostles and others wrote down the accounts and utterances of Jesus (AS) in Aramaic first, then later translated to greek, which is not a semetic language soooo the translation of what was originally said is easily lost or mistranslated by well meaning early scribes. Evidence of mistranslation still shows up to this day in the different revised versions of the bible. The jews were not necessarily an oral culture, they wrote down much of what they perceived important and oraly transmitted it to those who could not read.

I only added my 2 cents in order to help with the root meaning of the word satan, which in english does not usually mean the same as it does in other languages.

I agree with you. I was just stating what most scholar say. Here is a note worthy example: After killing Hebrew Christians, the Jews would take the New testament scripture written in Aramaic/Hebrew, and carefully cut the name of God out. Then they would place the divine name in a safe place to keep. Following that, they then would burn the remainder of the scrolls in a fire. Rabbi Yose who lived during the second century AD states that, "One cuts out the reference to the Divine Name which are in them [the Christian writings] and stores them away, and the rest burns." One of his characteristic sayings is, "He who proclaimed the coming of the Messiah,[John] and he who hated scholars [Yahshua] and his disciples; and that false prophet and those slanderers, will have no part in the future world." According to Bacher this was directed against the Hebrew Christians. And so it is an established fact then, that the disciples of Christ did in fact write the Holy Name of God into the New Testament. And so it is an established fact the disciples wrote God's personal name Yahwah in the original writings. The transliteration [Yahwah] is based upon the fact that the Proto Semitic did not use the letter "E" for a vowel. It is a Catholic tradition to remove the name of God from scriptures, and also not to speak His name.

 

[GodspromisesRyes]

yes the demon that is IN them that fall away is singular- " a devil" but that devil is IN THEM that perish- that fall away into perdition this is the mystery of iniquity.

2Th 2:9 [Even him], whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,


2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.


2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:


2Th 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.


singular spirit- antichrist- error- perdition who is in THEM that fall away- THEM that perish.

there was ONE judas who betrayed Jesus who the devil was in- there will be more than one judas to come who the same devil is in.

They mystery of godliness is this:

Col 1:27 To whom God would make known what [is] the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:


But while these in 2 thess 2 are suppose to be of the above verse, they fall away because the truth of them is this:


2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth [will let], until he be taken out of the way.

2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:


2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.


this wickedness is IN THEM and it shall be revealed- what will reveal it?

2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

It is revealed when they FALL AWAY.- Jhn said the same thing

1Jo 2:18 ¶ Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
1Jo 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would [no doubt] have continued with us: but [they went out], that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.


LOOK these antichrists WENT OUT FROM US because they were not really of us and they went out SO IT WOULD BE MANIFEST(revealed) that they are not of us!

wow God is awesome

 

[veteran]

yes the demon that is IN them that fall away is singular- " a devil" but that devil is IN THEM that perish- that fall away into perdition this is the mystery of iniquity.

2Th 2:9 [Even him], whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,


2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.


2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:


2Th 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.


singular spirit- antichrist- error- perdition who is in THEM that fall away- THEM that perish.

there was ONE judas who betrayed Jesus who the devil was in- there will be more than one judas to come who the same devil is in.

According to what Paul covers at the start of that chapter, there's a singular entity he called "the son of perdition" and "that man of sin", and "that Wicked" as CAUSING the "strong delusion". That is not about many causing those events. It's about a certain false one that causes it. And the type of strong delusion that false one will do is what causes many to fall away from Christ.

All you're pointing to is the deceived who would become antichrists by being deceived by that false one of 2 Thess.2:3-4. You're still not focusing on the entity there Paul shows who causes their deception.

The tradition of men that tries to turn those "son of perdition", "man of sin", and "that Wicked" labels into a melting pot of deceived peoples is a false tradition. Looking at it that way goes back to also misinterpeting the 1 John 2:18 verse, denying that a singular "antichrist" is mentioned along with "many antichrists." For that false tradition to work, one would have to try and treat the "dragon" entity of Revelation, and the "little horn" entity, and "vile person" entity, also as being many, instead of a specific entity which even the simple grammar of those Scriptures show.

Now if you believe Satan is who causes many to become the many antichrists, then why can't you see that false one there Paul shows causing the "strong delusion" as Satan himself? For that's the real entity he's showing there that will come to sit in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. That was Satan's original sin in the beginning even. And that's what that "man of sin" is actually pointing to, the one who sinned from the beginning, the devil.

 

[GodspromisesRyes]

vet,

I do not believe that the " man of sin" " son of perdition" is the entity who causes it as you say. I beleive the word of God shows out that the " man of sin" is the carnal nature- the old man. and that the son of perdition is the that carnal man who the entity comes to dwell in.

There is great biblical precident from genesis to revelation of groups of people being spoken of in the singular- in the OT because of their flesh and in the NT because of the spirit. Both because they are many people united and spoken of as one body because of the unity they have of flesh or spirit.

I do not know you do not agree with me on this, but i am pleased that in general we do agree alot just not on these matters.

I would submit to you that We are many people and we are called the body of Christ singular. WE have the Spirit of God in us and so we are the body of christ, the sons of God.

So too is the body of antichrist. we are never shown one man to be " the" antichrist. that is just ideas we are shown that antichrist is many and they are united in that spirit

 

[veteran]

vet,

I do not believe that the " man of sin" " son of perdition" is the entity who causes it as you say. I beleive the word of God shows out that the " man of sin" is the carnal nature- the old man. and that the son of perdition is the that carnal man who the entity comes to dwell in.

I can't do anything about how you choose to interpret those 2 Thessalonians 2 examples. But I will be honest in saying I think what your interpretation is doing is 'spiritualizing' a direct literal prophecy warning for those in Christ in the last days about a specific false one.

The doctrine you're listening to is taking the "mystery of iniquity" idea and applying it to all the singular events about the entity that is to be revealed at Christ's coming. But Paul doesn't begin the "mystery of iniquity" idea until verse 7. Paul's not talking about that "mystery of iniquity" being revealed, for he said it was ALREADY at work (2 Thess.2:7).

 

[GodspromisesRyes]

Yes, already at work- but not yet revealed.

It is similar to this:- judas was chosen of Jesus, he walked with them, was taught the same, preached the gospel, supped with them. No one but Jesus knew he was a devil.- the aposltes had no clue who the devil amoung them was.- which is why they all asked at dinner " is it i Lord".

but the iniquity, the love for unrighteousness rather than love for truth was already working in judas before he betrayed Jesus and was filled with satan-

it was already at work because he was already stealing from the common purse. NO ONE but Jesus knew he was a devil, an antichrist amoung them IN the temple of God. making himself god.

it was already at work but was not revealed until he fell away and betrayed him with a kiss.

this is why the falling away happens before the revealing

 

[veteran]

Yes, already at work- but not yet revealed.

It is similar to this:- judas was chosen of Jesus, he walked with them, was taught the same, preached the gospel, supped with them. No one but Jesus knew he was a devil.- the aposltes had no clue who the devil amoung them was.- which is why they all asked at dinner " is it i Lord".

but the iniquity, the love for unrighteousness rather than love for truth was already working in judas before he betrayed Jesus and was filled with satan-

it was already at work because he was already stealing from the common purse. NO ONE but Jesus knew he was a devil, an antichrist amoung them IN the temple of God. making himself god.

it was already at work but was not revealed until he fell away and betrayed him with a kiss.

this is why the falling away happens before the revealing

Yet the "mystery of iniquity" Paul mentioned does not just center around Judas Iscariot, since it even existed before Judas. The mystery of iniquity had already been revealed to Paul, and even John, otherwise they wouldn't have been able to warn about it.

The mystery of iniquity idea begins in the Old Testament, especially in the Psalms. In Matthew 13 our Lord Jesus revealed it totally with the parable of the tares of the field. It's about the "crept in unawares" of Jude 1 also. It's the one behind all that who has not been revealed yet. And it's that certain he that is to cause the great falling away of God's people in the end of days. The doctrine you're keeping is denying there is a specific antichrist coming in the last days prior to Christ's return. The early Church even understood that a specific antichrist was to come, and they were on watch for him, and thought it was the pope.

The mystery of iniquity about the devils servants is not what Paul is talking about that will be revealed at Christ's coming. Instead he's talking about a particular false one that is to come prior to Christ's coming and our gathering. He linked that false one of 2 Thess.2:3-4 with the revealing of a certain entity.

 

[precepts]

Prophecied in Zechariah:

Zec 11:12 And I said unto them, If ye think good, give [me] my price; and if not, forbear. So they weighed for my price thirty [pieces] of silver.
Zec 11:13 And the LORD said unto me, Cast it unto the potter: a goodly price that I was prised at of them. And I took the thirty [pieces] of silver, and cast them to the potter in the house of the LORD.

And fulfilled:

Mat 27:6 And the chief priests took the silver pieces, and said, It is not lawful for to put them into the treasury, because it is the price of blood.
Mat 27:7 And they took counsel, and bought with them the potter's field, to bury strangers in.
Mat 27:8 Wherefore that field was called, The field of blood, unto this day.
Mat 27:9 Then was fulfilled that which was spoken by Jeremy the prophet, saying, And they took the thirty pieces of silver, the price of him that was valued, whom they of the children of Israel did value;
Mat 27:10 And gave them for the potter's field, as the Lord appointed me.

 

[veteran]

The prophecy of the one who would betray Christ was indeed fulfilled through Judas Iscariot.

But the one of 2 Thess.2 Paul is speaking of is not Judas, because Judas was already dead when Paul gave that prophecy. If men's traditions can't get you to concentrate on Judas when reading 2 Thess.2, then they'll get you to concentrate on something else that's not part of what Paul's warning was about.

 

[Sinthesis]

The prophecy of the one who would betray Christ was indeed fulfilled through Judas Iscariot.

But the one of 2 Thess.2 Paul is speaking of is not Judas, because Judas was already dead when Paul gave that prophecy. If men's traditions can't get you to concentrate on Judas when reading 2 Thess.2, then they'll get you to concentrate on something else that's not part of what Paul's warning was about.

In 2nd Thessalonians chapter 2, Paul is speaking of men with the same mindset as Judas, who are hindered by one who believes as Christ. Eventually they get their way, but it only leads to their absolute destruction; both physical and spiritual.

 

[precepts]

veteran's
The prophecy of the one who would betray Christ was indeed fulfilled through Judas Iscariot.

But the one of 2 Thess.2 Paul is speaking of is not Judas, because Judas was already dead when Paul gave that prophecy. If men's traditions can't get you to concentrate on Judas when reading 2 Thess.2, then they'll get you to concentrate on something else that's not part of what Paul's warning was about.

That is only an opinion. The fact is, Christ called him a devil and not a evil person because that was what he was. That's the point.

 

[veteran]

The prophecy of the one who would betray Christ was indeed fulfilled through Judas Iscariot.

But the one of 2 Thess.2 Paul is speaking of is not Judas, because Judas was already dead when Paul gave that prophecy. If men's traditions can't get you to concentrate on Judas when reading 2 Thess.2, then they'll get you to concentrate on something else that's not part of what Paul's warning was about.

In 2nd Thessalonians chapter 2, Paul is speaking of men with the same mindset as Judas, who are hindered by one who believes as Christ. Eventually they get their way, but it only leads to their absolute destruction; both physical and spiritual.

How many is our Lord Jesus talking about with the following verses?

Matt 24:23
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, "Lo, here is Christ, or there"; believe it not.
(KJV)

Matt 24:25-26
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, "Behold, he is in the desert"; go not forth: "behold, he is in the secret chambers"; believe it not.
(KJV)

It's just a particular false one He was talking about there, not many.


What about these next verses?

Matt 24:5
5 For many shall come in My name, saying, "I am Christ"; and shall deceive many.
(KJV)

Matt 24:24
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
(KJV)

In verse 5, He was talking about many false ones that would claim to be Christ.

But verse 24 appears in between the 23-26 verses about a singular entity, and verse 24 is actually singular with the Greek word 'pseudo-christos'. (Christos = Christ in the Greek and is always singular).

Likewise in 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4, Apostle Paul was warning of a singular false one, and not many. I've heard that false doctrine of 'many' applied to 2 Thess.2:3-4 many times by preachers in my lifetime, so I know you'all here didn't come up with it, but are simply heeding what they told you to think.

 

[Joe67]

son of perdition--shews himself that he is god.

Ezek 28:2-4
2 Son of man, say unto the prince of Tyrus, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thine heart is lifted up, and thou hast said, I am a God, I sit in the seat of God, in the midst of the seas; yet thou art a man, and not God, though thou set thine heart as the heart of God:

3 Behold, thou art wiser than Daniel; there is no secret that they can hide from thee:

4 With thy wisdom and with thine understanding thou hast gotten thee riches, and hast gotten gold and silver into thy treasures: KJV

As you read the remainder of Ezekiel 28 it is revealed that this is the disposition to preach Christ for profit, count gain as godliness and make merchandise of the grace of God.

Judas was a thief, and he took from the bag. It didn't appear that he was a thief. It appeared that he was a follower of the Lord Jesus, and it appeared that he was concerned about the needs of the poor.

Judas was the son of perdition and he was ordained to betray his master with a kiss.

Joe

 

[veteran]

son of perdition--shews himself that he is god.

Ezek 28:2-4
2 Son of man, say unto the prince of Tyrus, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thine heart is lifted up, and thou hast said, I am a God, I sit in the seat of God, in the midst of the seas; yet thou art a man, and not God, though thou set thine heart as the heart of God:

3 Behold, thou art wiser than Daniel; there is no secret that they can hide from thee:

4 With thy wisdom and with thine understanding thou hast gotten thee riches, and hast gotten gold and silver into thy treasures: KJV

As you read the remainder of Ezekiel 28 it is revealed that this is the disposition to preach Christ for profit, count gain as godliness and make merchandise of the grace of God.

Judas was a thief, and he took from the bag. It didn't appear that he was a thief. It appeared that he was a follower of the Lord Jesus, and it appeared that he was concerned about the needs of the poor.

Judas was the son of perdition and he was ordained to betray his master with a kiss.

Joe

You got the first part of your post right on.

But Judas Iscariot was NOT who Apostle Paul was talking about in 2 Thessalonians 2.