Judged for past dead sins? Or present live sins?

[Paidion]

When we understand the true character of God, that He is LOVE personified, that He cares for His children, and is not the cause of cancer and agonizing death, that He will do His best for even the wicked, and that He will correct people like a loving father corrects his children --- when we understand all this, we can love Him, submit to Him, and serve Him wholeheartedly without reservation. On the other hand, if we believe the Father to be a harsh, demanding God, who keeps a record of every sin ever committed, and is ready to pounce on the slightest infraction of His law, ready to send over 99% of people to a hell where they will suffer agony eternally, we may not be able to love Him and serve Him with all of our hearts. This latter belief fits all the pagan religions from thousands of years ago until the present. They all try to appease the anger of their gods with sacrifices and offerings, so that their gods will not harm them. Some Christians also believe that the anger our God must also be appeased, and that this was accomplished by the sacrifice of Christ. But the New Testament gives very different reasons as to why Christ died:

I Peter 2:24 He himself endured our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed.

II Corinthians 5:15 And he died for all, that those who live might live no longer for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.

Romans 14:9 For to this end Christ died and lived again, that he might be Lord both of the dead and of the living.

Titus 2:14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all iniquity and to purify for himself a people of his own who are zealous for good deeds.

Heb 9:26 ...he has appeared once for all at the end of the age to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself.

Each of these reasons is essentially the same. Jesus died in order that we might come under His authority and thereby, through His enabling grace, become righteous persons. God, who wants people to be reconciled to Himself and gave His Son to make this possible. The reconciliation of the individual entails taking on the characteristics of God: righteousness, holiness, love, and compassion. Christ began His work by His own proclamation of the gospel of the Kingdom. He accomplished on the cross the means of making righteousness possible, and proclaimed from the cross that this aspect of His work was completed. Through His people, He continues His work in the hearts of people, reconciling them to Himself, enabling them to overcome wrongdoing, and giving to them the ministry of reconciliation. Christ’s total work will not be complete until He has eliminated sin from the universe!

A hymn that appears in some of the old hymn books from the early 20th century, contains these words in the first two verses:

1.There was a time on earth, when in the Book of Heaven an old account was standing for sins yet unforgiven; my name was at the top, and many things below. I went unto the keeper and settled long ago.
2.The old account was large and growing every day, for I was always sinning and never tried to pay. But when I looked ahead and saw such pain and woe, I went unto the keeper and settled long ago.

This song seem to teach that God keeps a record of all sins, and that for any individual, they pile up, that God has some kind of legal obligation to see that these sins are paid for in order that the pages of the Book of Heaven can be wiped clean. In the chorus, the song writer indicates that he was able to settle the account of his sin long ago through Jesus who washed his sins away. The idea seems to be that God keeps an account of every sin committed, and that this sin must be paid for either through Christ’s atoning work, or the sinner has to pay for it himself in an eternal hell.

But is this the teaching of Scripture? Does it anywhere teach that there is a Book of Heaven in which a record is kept of all sins?

According to the NIV, 1 Corinthians 13:4 states that Love keeps no record of wrongs.
The Philips translation puts it similarly. Love does not keep account of evil. I assure you that these two translations correctly translate the Greek words. Now John the elder affirmed twice in 1John that God is love. Does it not follow that if God is Love and Love keeps no record of wrongs, then God keeps no record of wrongs, and thus does not possess a Book of Heaven in which He keeps an account of evil, an account of all sins?

Is God interested in making people pay for their past sins? Or is God interested in our present character, of any sinful tendencies in us now? Is God interested in settling the old account written in the Book of Heaven, or is He interested in conforming our present natures to the image of Christ?

I know of no one who put it more clearly than George MacDonald in his book The Hope of the Gospel in the first chapter Salvation from Sin. He wrote:

Not for anything he has committed is a man threatened with outer darkness. Not for any or all of his sins that are past shall a man be condemned; not for the worst of them does he need to dread remaining unforgiven. The sin in which he dwells, the sin of which he will not come out is the sole ruin of a man. His present live sins --- those sins pervading his thoughts and ruling his conduct; the sins he keeps doing, and will not give up; the sins he is called to abandon, but which he clings to instead, the same sins which are the cause of his misery, though he may not know it --- these are the sins for which he is even now condemned. It is the indwelling badness, ready to produce bad actions, from which we need to be delivered. If a man will not strive against this badness, he is left to commit evil and reap the consequences. To be saved from these consequences, would be no deliverance; it would be an immediate, ever deepening damnation. It is the evil in our being (no essential part of it, thank God!) ---this is what He came to deliver us from --- not the things we have done, but the possibility of doing such things any more…. The bad that lives in us, our evil judgments, our unrighteous desires, out hate and our pride and envy and greed and self-satisfaction ---- these are the souls of our sins, our live sins, more terrible than the bodies or our sins, namely the deeds we do, inasmuch as they not only produce these loathsome things, but make us as loathsome as they. Our wrong deeds are our dead works; our evil thoughts are our live sins…. The sins that dwell and work in us, are the sins from which Jesus came to deliver us. When we turn against them and refuse to obey them, they rise in fierce insistence, but the same moment begin to die. We are then on the Lord’s side, as he has always been on ours, and He begins to deliver us from them.

So the purpose of Christ’ death is not to forgive us of our past sins, but to deliver us from our present live sins, to change our very natures and desires. This is the gospel of Jesus Christ.

But when we read Paul’s message to the Jews at Antioch concerning Jesus having been put to death and having been raised to life, we come across this sentence in the RSV:

Acts 13:38 Let it be known to you therefore, brethren, that through this man forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you…

If this is what this sentence says, then it directly contradicts what I have just said. But did Paul proclaim the forgiveness of sins? There are nine verses in the RSV New Testament containing the phrase “forgiveness of sinsâ€Â, but before I discuss this phrase, let’s look at one more such sentence from the RSV:

Mark 1:4 John the baptizer appeared in the wilderness, preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins.

When we examine the rest of Mark’s account of John the baptizer, we find that John is not recorded as having said a word about forgiveness. Nor do you find John mentioning forgiveness in reading the longer account of his words in Matthew.

The problem seems to lie in the meaning of the Greek noun “ἀÆεÃι†being translated as “forgivenessâ€Â. The verbal form is “ἀÆιημι†which sometimes means “forgiveâ€Â. But the latter word is translated as “leave†more often than it is translated in any other way. This seems to be its primary meaning. For example, all major translations translate the word as “left†in the following verses:

Matthew 8:15 … the fever left (“ἀÆιημιâ€Â) her.
Matthew 13:36 He left (“ἀÆιημιâ€Â) the crowds and went into the house.Peter said to Jesus in Matthew 19:27 “We have left (“ἀÆιημιâ€Â) everything and followed you.â€Â

Many of the major translations render I Corinthians 7:13 as:
If a man has an unbelieving wife and she consents to live with him, let her not leave (“ἀÆιημι†) him.

Strangely enough to say, some of these same translations translate the previous verse as :
If any brother has a wife who is an unbeliever, and she consents to live with him, he should not divorce (“ἀÆιημι†) her.

Why they should translate the same verb “ἀÆιημι†as “divorce†in the case of a brother with an unbelieving wife, I cannot guess. However, Philips, ASV, and Darby translate it consistently, that is that the brother “should not leave her.â€Â

So what is the upshot of all this? It is simply this: if the primary meaning of “ἀÆιημι†is “leaveâ€Â, then the primary meaning of “ἀÆεÃι†is “leavingâ€Â. John the baptizer proclaimed a baptism of repentance for the leaving of sin, or perhaps better yet, the forsaking of sin. And Paul really said, as recorded in Acts 13:38:

Let it be known to you therefore, brethren, that through this man the forsaking of sins is proclaimed to you.

Yet there is another possibility:

Jesus read in the synagogue the following passage from Isaiah:


"THE SPIRIT OF THE LORD IS UPON ME, BECAUSE HE ANOINTED ME TO PREACH THE GOSPEL TO THE POOR. HE HAS SENT ME TO PROCLAIM RELEASE (ἀÆεÃιÂ) TO THE CAPTIVES, AND RECOVERY OF SIGHT TO THE BLIND, TO SET FREE [to send away in freedom (ἀÆεÃιÂ)] THOSE WHO ARE OPPRESSED, TO PROCLAIM THE FAVORABLE YEAR OF THE LORD." Luke 4:18. 19

No one translates “ἀÆεÃι†in this passage as “forgivenessâ€Â. If they did we would have Jesus "sending away in forgiveness", those who are oppressed. The oppressed do not need forgiveness. They need freedom from oppression.

If we transfer this meaning of “ἀÆεÃι†to the previously quoted passages, we have John the baptizer preaching a baptism of repentance for freedom from sins, and we have Paul saying to the Jewish leaders:

Acts 13:38 Let it be known to you therefore, brethren, that through this man freedom from sins is proclaimed to you.

There are other passages that may appear to say that we need to settle accounts concerning past sins, and they can be discussed. But for now, I’ll simply sum up.

God wants righteous people who will now work righteousness and avoid wrongdoing. He wants to regenerate people, give them a new heart and new desires, bring them to a state in which old things have passed away and all things become new. He may have overlooked sin in the past, but now delivers people from sin through the sacrifice of Jesus Christ.

The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent. Acts 17:30

 

[Bubba]

God wants righteous people who will now work righteousness and avoid wrongdoing. He wants to regenerate people, give them a new heart and new desires, bring them to a state in which old things have passed away and all things become new. He may have overlooked sin in the past, but now delivers people from sin through the sacrifice of Jesus Christ.

Hi Paidon,
At 70 how are you doing in this respect "...will now work righteousness and avoid wrong doing"?
The older I get both in age and in the Lord, it doesn't seem to get any easier. You have gave me something to think about nonetheless.
Grace, Bubba

 

[Pogo]

This is a very interesting subject!

I'm suprised that it hasn't generated more comments from others by now.

Regarding my understanding of this comment from above...

So the purpose of Christ’ death is not to forgive us of our past sins, but to deliver us from our present live sins, to change our very natures and desires. This is the gospel of Jesus Christ.

...I'm seeing a slight conflict with other passages.

Such as...

2 Peter 1 KJV
(9) But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.

...and...

Romans 3 KJV
(25) Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

As I'm understanding things at this point in time, our sins...once forgiven...are forever washed away.

However, it is our NEW sins...that we commit by the minute, day-after-day...which we have yet to atone for...THESE will be the sins that we each will be charged with upon our death...IF we haven't properly repented of them, and washed them, too, away!

Otherwise, why does the scriptures give us instructions on how to pray, as well as tell us to "...pray unceasingly..."?

A Christian that is praying "unceasingly" for forgiveness of their sins, is at a much lower risk of dying with unrepented sins charged to them, in my view!

In Christ,

Pogo

 

[Paidion]

...I'm seeing a slight conflict with other passages.

Such as...

2 Peter 1 KJV
(9) But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.

Let's examine the passage in context:

For this very reason make every effort to supplement your faith with virtue, and virtue with knowledge, and knowledge with self-control, and self-control with steadfastness, and steadfastness with godliness, and godliness with brotherly affection, and brotherly affection with love. For if these things are yours and abound, they keep you from being ineffective or unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. For whoever lacks these things is blind and shortsighted and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins. Therefore, brethren, be the more zealous to confirm your call and election, for if you do this you will never fall; so there will be richly provided for you an entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. 2 Peter 1:5-11 RSV

Is Peter not saying that if we lack faith, virtue, knowledge, Godliness, brotherly affection, and love, we have "forgotten that we were cleansed from our old sins"? Does "cleansed from our old sins" not mean to be delivered from them so that we do not do them anymore? If we have really been delivered from them, they will be replaced by these Godly characteristics.

...and...

Romans 3 KJV
(25) Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

Again, context explains all:

But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from law, although the law and the prophets bear witness to it, the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction; since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, they are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as an expiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins; it was to prove at the present time that he himself is righteous and that he justifies him who has faith in Jesus. Romans 3:21-25

The last two verses indicate that though in his divine forbearance, under the old order, under the sacrificial system, God passed over former sins committed my Israel, but at the present time, He requires righteousness.

God didn't desire sacrifice:

Psalms 40:6 Sacrifice and offering you have not desired, but you have given me an open ear. Burnt offering and sin offering you have not required. ESV

God gave an open ear to hear His commands and to obey. He didn't desire or require sacrifices. Other nations offered sacrifices to appease the anger of their gods so that the people wouldn't be harmed by these gods. Israel did the same thing with their God. So God went along with it by way of concession, as long as they didn't sacrifice to other gods. He overlooked their sin when they offererd sacrifices.

But notice that Paul then states: "...at the present time that he himself is righteous and that he makes righteous him who has faith in Jesus." [Note: the word translated as "justifies" means not only "shows to be righteous" but sometimes "makes righteous".

In the old days, God overlooked sin, but at the present time, He no longer overlooks it, but requires a change of character in the sinner.

Much the same thing was said by Paul to the Athenians to show that God's attitude to sinners changed after Jesus died for us:

The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all men everywhere to repent.
Acts 17:30

 

[Pogo]

Posted by Paidion...
Is Peter not saying that if we lack faith, virtue, knowledge, Godliness, brotherly affection, and love, we have "forgotten that we were cleansed from our old sins"? Does "cleansed from our old sins" not mean to be delivered from them so that we do not do them anymore? If we have really been delivered from them, they will be replaced by these Godly characteristics.

I see the above as Peter saying that a Christian who is lacking in the above traits, will fall back into the ways of the world, where he will repeat his sins all over again...separating himself from Christ...condemning himself until he properly repents!

When Jesus teaches us how to pray in Matthew 6, one of the elements, repeated in every prayer that I've ever heard, and made, is...

Matthew 6 KJV
(12) And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.

If Christians have been delivered from their sins 'so that we do not do them anymore,' why continue to ask for forgivness for something (debts, transgressions, trespasses) that is unnecessary?

If Hymenaeus and Alexander had been delivered from their sins 'so that they did not do them anymore,' then why did Paul turn them back over to Satan?

1 Timothy 1 KJV
(20) Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.

Why would James tell us that...

James 5 KJV
(19) Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
(20) Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

...if a brother, or sister, is truly delivered from their sins 'so that they do not do them anymore,' then what is James talking about in the passage above?

In Christ,

Pogo

 

[RND]

Great topic!

When one accepts the "Passover lamb" the blood of covers sin.

1Cr 5:7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us: 8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened [bread] of sincerity and truth.

The "Passover lamb" was never prayed over just accepted by faith and as a result the blood from the lamb covers all sin. Yet, in the sanctuary, when the priest ate some of the meat of the sacrifice this symbolized the transfer of sin from the sinner to the priest. From there the priest transferred the sin inside the Holy Place. In similar fashion when we ingest the lamb, eat it's flesh and drink it's blood we internalize the character and nature of that lamb.

John 6:53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. 54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. 56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.

By beholding Him we become like Him.....

2 Cr 5:17 Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

 

[Pogo]

RND -

What you have posted above is exactly right...as far as it goes.

But...I'm concerned that you seem to indicate that once this happens, one's work on this earth is then done, and they will be safe, no matter what they then choose to do, until Judgment Day...and beyond.

If this is accurate, then please explain the meanings of the passages I've posted above, which I see as conflicting with that view!

In Christ,

Pogo

 

[RND]

RND -

What you have posted above is exactly right...as far as it goes.

But...I'm concerned that you seem to indicate that once this happens, one's work on this earth is then done, and they will be safe, no matter what they then choose to do, until Judgment Day...and beyond.

If this is accurate, then please explain the meanings of the passages I've posted above, which I see as conflicting with that view!

In Christ,

Pogo

The throne room of grace in the sanctuary is always open and the council and mediation of our great heavenly High Priest is always available to us. One need not be saved again and again and again to enter into the Holy of Hollies. One simply needs a repentant heart and a set of knees!

We have been reconciled to God through Jesus. That work is done. God has completely forgiven us. The work that remains is our becoming reconciled back to God through His Son. We must be willing to forgive "ourselves!" This is also the work that is done through Christ!

Even if one accepts Christ and falls away again, and again Christ is there to pick us up and help us reach the final goal....ultimate trust in the Word of God.

Pro 24:16 For a just [man] falleth seven times, and riseth up again: but the wicked shall fall into mischief.

We are "never" cast aside by God. We cast ourselves away from Him. No matter what we do, no matter what we have done, we can always come back to the Father (prodigal son). We can only be "lost" when we finally and completely ignore the calling of the Holy Spirit to repentance.

Rev 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

The knocking and the calling never stop. Just the willingness to open the door.

 

[Timios]

Pogo wrote:

If Christians have been delivered from their sins 'so that we do not do them anymore,' why continue to ask for forgivness for something (debts, transgressions, trespasses) that is unnecessary?

If Hymenaeus and Alexander had been delivered from their sins 'so that they did not do them anymore,' then why did Paul turn them back over to Satan?

I don't think Paidion meant that Christians have become sinless because of Christ's sacrifice. I think he meant that they are delivered from a sinful life style.

1 John 3:8 ESV Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil.
1 John 3:10 ESV By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother.

 

[Bick]

Interesting Posts.

The debate between man's 'free will' and the Sovereignty of God goes on.

Will man, on his own, ever seek God? Not according to Romans 3:10-18:

"There is none righteous, not even one; there is no one who understands God.....There is no fear of God before their eyes." NIV.

God knows this and has provided the sacrifice that takes away our sins: John saw Jesus and declared "Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!" John 1:29, NIV.

And this was revealed to Paul in 2 Cor.5:14ff
"For Christ's love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died...Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!"

And especially 2 Cor. 5:19:
"All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: that GOD WAS RECONCILING THE WORLD TO HIMSELF IN CHRIST, NOT COUNTING MEN'S SINS AGAINST THEM." Capitals mine.

The sin question is settled. Will men still give account for their deeds? Yes indeed.
Even we in the body of Christ, after we are caught up to the heavens, after meeting the Lord in the air, and then up there will stand before Christ's judgement seat to give an account of himself.
Rom. 14:10.

"Each one must receive what is due him for the things done in his body, whether good or bad."
2 Cor. 5:10, NIV.

This does not mean loss of salvation, but, IMO, loss of rewards and praise before Christ.

There are many verses in the OT telling that all mankind will give account of his deeds.

I believe the faithful remnant of Israel will be judged by Christ after his coming again to establish his kingdom. Some will have lived through the tribulation, and some will be resurrected then, along with the OT righteous Israelites and Gentile proselytes

The great majority of minkind will be raised to be judged before Christ on his great white throne.
They will be "judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books", Rev. 20:12, NIV.