Judgement

[Rick W]

To all:
Please, tone it down a bit.
Thanks

:o

 

[GraceBwithU]

One last comment about the "sleep of death", which is completely different from the sleep of the body, then back to the subject. The bible clearly speaks of death as sleep. Especially when he speaks of believers that are in shoal. Jesus indicates a very peaceful state of the believer by using such phrases as "...sleep in Jesus..." (1Thes 4:14), "...the saints which slept..." (Matt 27:52) Perhaps the unrighteous are not so lucky. Perhaps the state of their soul is filled with nightmares of things they have done. The believer however is at peace waiting for the first resurrection, which occurs instantly, no concept of time passing. This is why Jesus told the thief on the cross that he would join Him in paradise that day. Time is of this world.

In this way the nature of this sleep is indeed related to the first judgment. The Judgment when we first die. We will be judged again and rewarded for our works. At death our first judgment takes place. No second chances, we are bound for the first resurrection or the second.

Anyway, perhaps saying that we are judged twice is not totally accurate. I think it may be more accurate to say we a judged when we die to spend eternity in heaven or hell, then later rewarded or sentenced.
:wink:

 

[Vic C.]

Anyway, perhaps saying that we are judged twice is not totally accurate. I think it may be more accurate to say we a judged when we die to heaven or hell, then later rewarded or sentenced.

Sounds good, but I can't reconcile it with this:

Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

8-)

Is there Scriptural proof I can study which suggests judgment immediately upon death?

 

[GraceBwithU]

Anyway, perhaps saying that we are judged twice is not totally accurate. I think it may be more accurate to say we a judged when we die to heaven or hell, then later rewarded or sentenced.

Sounds good, but I can't reconcile it with this:

Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

8-)

Is there Scriptural proof I can study which suggests judgment immediately upon death?

Good point...I was just stating it another way.

I think the key to the answer to this question lies in my statement about time after death. When Jesus spoke to the thief on the cross, He was speaking of how instantaneous being with him in paradise would be, even though the thief is probably still in shoal. With this being said, the judgment to spend eternity in heaven or hell is also instantaneous. We must forget about the dimension of time when we think of life after death. There are many things and concepts of this world that simply will cease to exist when we are with Jesus. This is what will make it so peaceful.

•How much time do I have left to complete this project?
•How much longer are we going to have to wait for our table?
•How long will it be before Christ comes?
•How much longer are we to sit here in traffic?

I could go on and on. The dimension of time does not give us peace.

 

[GraceBwithU]

I would also like to comment again on being knocked unconscious. Earlier I read a post made by Imagican. He obviously experienced something totally different than I did. His was horrifying. These experiences changed his life forever. My change was not right away. But it did help me to understand some things that I now study.

Imagican was, (according to his post) not living the way he should. This was God’s way of getting him on track. For me, I was knocked unconscious by the car hitting me, at the very same instant I was resurrected back to life, (an hour and a half or more later). There is NO way a person can understand this unless they have experienced it first hand.

It has come to my attention by Imagican’s post, that possibly he experienced the state of the soul after death of the non believer and I experienced the state (or sleep) of the believer. I am not being self righteous by saying this. Quiet frankly I was not living the way I should at the time. God just had other things in mind to humble me and bring me home. He may have possibly given Imagican that experience and me another for us to be able to see the contrast. I have met others with the same type of contrast in their experiences. Regardless, it is very clear to me because of this, that death is when the first and most important judgment happens. Forget “time†guys. If you hold on to this concept or any other worldly concept, you will never understand scriptures that deal with such things as this.

 

[Imagican]

Grace,

Nothing 'self righteous' in your offering.

I openly admitted that at the time of these experiences I WAS living a life TOTALLY emersed in SIN. I WAS my OWN God. Totally oblvious at the time that Satan was MY Father. So you offer nothing that I didn't already indicate. My experience MAY well have BEEN intended to SHOW me WHAT I had to 'look forward' to if my life contiued upon the SAME course.

Hallucination brought on by 'trama'? Who can say. But these WERE two of the MOST profound experiences of my life.

And something to add; Guys, at the time of these experiences I had NO 'use' for God. Was NOT religious AT ALL. Yet BOTH experiences WERE of a 'religious nature' and I KNEW it at a time when I knew NOTHING of 'religion'. I believe that it's IMPORTANT to understand this. For it begs the question, whether hallucination or not, WHY was it SUCH a 'religious' experience? I knew NOTHING of 'religion' at the time.

And it was SO vivid and SO 'seemingly REAL. Where did it 'come from'?

I personally believe that it WAS a 'glimpse' of WHAT 'hell is'. Whether it was an actual indication of WHAT happens immediately upon the death of the LOST or not I cannot say. Perhaps it was a glimpse into a future that IS a 'thousand' years from one's death. I cannot say. But it TOOK PLACE, the vision, (or whatever you would choose to call it), happened IMMEDIATELY. As soon as I lost conciousness, until the moment that I regained conciousness, this vision took place.

And it was LITERALLY like I was 'left with the mental impression' that this WAS HELL. This WAS the NATURE of the 'eternal torment'. And brothers and sisters, it was UNDESCRIBABLY horrible. Not 'pain' so much as what we physically experience. MUCH more intense and more of a 'pain of EMOTIONAL feelings' rather than that of the physical body.

And Grace, what sounds SO familiar reading your offering is this: Even though you say that you had absolutely NO recollection of ANY of the 'time', (as if it was irrelevant or altered somehow), that is EXACTLY the SAME perception that I got. The few minutes that I was IN this 'vision', SEEMED like it would NEVER END. That WAS the 'feeling' of it. That it was somehow going to BE EVERLASTING. That there was NO ESCAPE. So, I can certainly relate to the FEELING that went away with. The FACT that the 'time' envolved with eternity has LITTLE bearing on the minute amount of time that we are given on this earth. That for God and that which IS eternal, there is NO confinement of TIME. Time doesn't really even play a 'part' in eternity. More like the important factor used to track 'space of time' is more EVENTS than a 'span of time'.

Not to totally veer off subject, but this is HOW I came to the realization that the 'six day' creation was NOTHING other than a 'explaining of events in a WAY that those that heard were able to relate'. Try explaining to those as technologically immature as Moses the concept of ETERNITY. Most don't even have the capacity to comprehend it NOW, how much less, then? So, I am a firm believer that the 'days' mentioned in Creation were MORE involved with actual EVENTS than a 'set time period'. The 'days' were 'represenative' of Separate events with little if ANY actual relation to ACTUAL days.

MEC

 

[Abimael]

Sleep is an action of the body not the soul, the soul never sleeps.

Matt 27:52-53
52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
KJV

See how it is referring to the bodies sleeping? All the other passages you quoted also refer to their bodies not their soul.

Sleep is been used figuritively about the death of the body, it has nothing to do with the soul.

And many of those that sleep in the dust of the earth, shall awake: some unto life everlasting, and others unto reproach, to see it always. Daniel 12:2

This makes it clear I hope that sleep is used in the bible figuratively to refer to bodily death, the body comes from the earth and in death returns to the earth hence it is said to sleep in the dust of the the earth awaiting the resurrection but the soul comes from God and returns to Him when this life ends.

Also see:

1 Samuel 28 were you will read how Samuel though long dead was aware of the actions of the living.

Matt. 17:3; Mark 9:4; Luke 9:30. Moses and Elijah were "deceased" but Christ conversed with them while he was on earth.

Matt. 27:47,49; Mark 15:35-36 – the people believe that Jesus calls on Elijah for his intercession, and waits to see if Elijah would come to save Jesus on the cross, they would not have wondered this if they thought that Elijah was asleep.

And there are also two passages from books included in the original Christian Greek Bibles but for some reason are not in most modern Bibles.

O Lord Almighty, the God of Israel, hear now the prayer of the dead of Israel, and of their children, that have sinned before thee, and have not hearkened to the voice of the Lord their God, wherefore evils have cleaved fast to us. Baruch 3:4 - Baruch asks the Lord to hear the prayers of the dead of Israel. They can intercede on behalf of the people of God, they wouldn't be able to do this if they were asleep.

2 Macc. 15:12-16 – the high priest Onias and the prophet Jeremiah were deceased for centuries, and yet interact with the living Judas Maccabeas and pray for the holy people on earth, again clearly they are not asleep.

AS to the immediate or particluar judgement:

“There was a certain rich man, who was clothed in purple and fine linen; and feasted sumptuously every day. And there was a certain beggar, named Lazarus, who lay at his gate, full of sores,
Desiring to be filled with the crumbs that fell from the rich man's table, and no one did give him; moreover the dogs came, and licked his sores. And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom. And the rich man also died: and he was buried in hell. And lifting up his eyes when he was in torments, he saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom: And he cried, and said: Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, to cool my tongue: for I am tormented in this flame. And Abraham said to him: Son, remember that thou didst receive good things in thy lifetime, and likewise Lazareth evil things, but now he is comforted; and thou art tormented.

[22 "Abraham's bosom"... The place of rest, where the souls of the saints resided, till Christ had opened heaven by his death.]

And besides all this, between us and you, there is fixed a great chaos: so that they who would pass from hence to you, cannot, nor from thence come hither. And he said: Then, father, I beseech thee, that thou wouldst send him to my father's house, for I have five brethren, That he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torments. And Abraham said to him: They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. But he said: No, father Abraham: but if one went to them from the dead, they will do penance.
And he said to him: If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they believe, if one rise again from the dead.†Luke 16:19-31

“And Jesus said to him: Amen I say to thee, this day thou shalt be with me in paradiseâ€Â. Luke 23:43

“But we are confident, and have a good will to be absent rather from the body, and to be present with the Lord.†2 Corinthians 5:8. From this it is clear that St. Paul believed that upon death he would be "present with the Lord.", not asleep.

 

[Imagican]

And folks, ALL will NOT 'sleep'. This is STATED on numerous occasions throughout The Word. MOST will. For that matter MOST already DO. But NOT ALL will 'sleep'.

And Grace has brought up a pretty good point. Was the Rich man and Lazrus simply a 'parable' or did it have validity in that it was POSSIBLE that such event or events simiar had ALREADY taken place?

What happens is pretty irrelevant. It's GOING to happen REGARDLESS of the ACTAULITY of event. And no amount of 'fear' or 'promise' is going to alter WHETHER we LIVE for Christ or DON'T.

We will all 'be judge' according to our works. I offered what I offered in the hopes of being able to SHOW that 'hell' is something MUCH deeper than most seem to realize. It is a punishment of OUR OWN FAILURES. And the WORST 'part' of this punishment is KNOWLEDGE. Once we are 'condemned' WE WILL KNOW WHY. And we will KNOW that it IS PERMANENT.

Right now we can confuse ourselves with 'speculation'. When it's OUR TIME to BE judged, there will BE NO 'speculation'. It will be KNOWN as clearly as ANYTHING we have EVER KNOWN the WHY of our judgement. And at that point we will ALSO know the FINALITY of it. And THAT'S the 'scary' part for those that are NOT 'saved'. Trust me, the gnashing of teeth and the 'suffering' IS real. Permanent? Forever? I personally believe that this is MORE symbolic than ACTUAL torment. For as I have previously stated, IF you are IN a place that is 'timeless', the 'relative time' that passes is NOT RECOGNIZED as such. A DAY could SEEM like an eternity AS IT'S PASSING to one that has NO IDEA that 'time is passing' or WHEN it will END.

Grace brought up another 'neat' point that she is TOTALLY correct in her UNDERSTANDING of the 'principle'. There IS NO TIME to God as WE perceive it. He IS 'eternal'. This is a concept that few can grasp for our mortality makes this a 'difficult thing' to ACTUALLY understand. But, to put it simply: God is NOT confined to the '24 hour rotational period of our planet'. He is OUTSIDE of this 'boundary'. And thus, EVERYONE that exists WILL one day live in or BY this same 'eternal' time flow.

And to further add what I PERSONALLY believe is that AFTER judgement, those that are deemed UNWORTHY of 'eternal life' will LOOSE it. They will simply be SEPARATED from God FOREVER through a 'second death'. Not of the pysical body, but THEN of the Spirit and soul as well.

Whether this is true of ALL that will be judged unworthy I am unable to answer. Perhaps SOME will have devoted themselves to Satan and DO deserve to be punished FOREVER in torment. I personally find this 'difficult to believe'. That our Creator and God could be SO vengeful that He would consider a 'few' years on this planet WORTHY to be JUDGED for ETERNAL LITERAL tormenting punishment. I am perfectly aware of what the Bible offers. But we are STILL never given an EXACT description of 'hell' or eternal 'punishment'. And FOREVER can certainly have MORE than ONE definition by it's use. As I have previously stated; a day of serious unpleasantness CAN SEEM like an eternity. Imagine a thousand years or more of continuous UNPLEASANTNESS. Talk about an 'ETERNITY', just imagine having to deal with it for a lifetime; now multiply this by MORE THAN A HUNDRED lifetimes. And NEVER actually KNOWING what POINT on IS in their torment.................. Kinda scary if you ask me. And then KNOWING that when it's OVER, then it will REALLY BE OVER. That would be even worse than the 'torment' KNOWING that 'when it's over it's REALLY ALL OVER. At least with torment one is STILL aware of their EXISTENCE. But the finallity of being ERASED is 'not a very pretty one'.

Speculation? Absolutely. PURELY speculation? To some they would most certainly say 'yes', but to me I have the 'feeling' that it's based on a bit MORE than shear speculation.

MEC

 

[GraceBwithU]

And folks, ALL will NOT 'sleep'. This is STATED on numerous occasions throughout The Word. MOST will. For that matter MOST already DO. But NOT ALL will 'sleep'.

And Grace has brought up a pretty good point. Was the Rich man and Lazrus simply a 'parable' or did it have validity in that it was POSSIBLE that such event or events simiar had ALREADY taken place?

What happens is pretty irrelevant. It's GOING to happen REGARDLESS of the ACTAULITY of event. And no amount of 'fear' or 'promise' is going to alter WHETHER we LIVE for Christ or DON'T.

We will all 'be judge' according to our works. I offered what I offered in the hopes of being able to SHOW that 'hell' is something MUCH deeper than most seem to realize. It is a punishment of OUR OWN FAILURES. And the WORST 'part' of this punishment is KNOWLEDGE. Once we are 'condemned' WE WILL KNOW WHY. And we will KNOW that it IS PERMANENT.

Right now we can confuse ourselves with 'speculation'. When it's OUR TIME to BE judged, there will BE NO 'speculation'. It will be KNOWN as clearly as ANYTHING we have EVER KNOWN the WHY of our judgement. And at that point we will ALSO know the FINALITY of it. And THAT'S the 'scary' part for those that are NOT 'saved'. Trust me, the gnashing of teeth and the 'suffering' IS real. Permanent? Forever? I personally believe that this is MORE symbolic than ACTUAL torment. For as I have previously stated, IF you are IN a place that is 'timeless', the 'relative time' that passes is NOT RECOGNIZED as such. A DAY could SEEM like an eternity AS IT'S PASSING to one that has NO IDEA that 'time is passing' or WHEN it will END.

Grace brought up another 'neat' point that she is TOTALLY correct in her UNDERSTANDING of the 'principle'. There IS NO TIME to God as WE perceive it. He IS 'eternal'. This is a concept that few can grasp for our mortality makes this a 'difficult thing' to ACTUALLY understand. But, to put it simply: God is NOT confined to the '24 hour rotational period of our planet'. He is OUTSIDE of this 'boundary'. And thus, EVERYONE that exists WILL one day live in or BY this same 'eternal' time flow.

And to further add what I PERSONALLY believe is that AFTER judgement, those that are deemed UNWORTHY of 'eternal life' will LOOSE it. They will simply be SEPARATED from God FOREVER through a 'second death'. Not of the pysical body, but THEN of the Spirit and soul as well.

Whether this is true of ALL that will be judged unworthy I am unable to answer. Perhaps SOME will have devoted themselves to Satan and DO deserve to be punished FOREVER in torment. I personally find this 'difficult to believe'. That our Creator and God could be SO vengeful that He would consider a 'few' years on this planet WORTHY to be JUDGED for ETERNAL LITERAL tormenting punishment. I am perfectly aware of what the Bible offers. But we are STILL never given an EXACT description of 'hell' or eternal 'punishment'. And FOREVER can certainly have MORE than ONE definition by it's use. As I have previously stated; a day of serious unpleasantness CAN SEEM like an eternity. Imagine a thousand years or more of continuous UNPLEASANTNESS. Talk about an 'ETERNITY', just imagine having to deal with it for a lifetime; now multiply this by MORE THAN A HUNDRED lifetimes. And NEVER actually KNOWING what POINT on IS in their torment.................. Kinda scary if you ask me. And then KNOWING that when it's OVER, then it will REALLY BE OVER. That would be even worse than the 'torment' KNOWING that 'when it's over it's REALLY ALL OVER. At least with torment one is STILL aware of their EXISTENCE. But the finallity of being ERASED is 'not a very pretty one'.

Speculation? Absolutely. PURELY speculation? To some they would most certainly say 'yes', but to me I have the 'feeling' that it's based on a bit MORE than shear speculation.

MEC

Amen MEC,
I was beginning to think that I was the only one that understood that God was not bound by time. The human concept of time, (if one does not let go of it), can cause many misinterpretations of scripture and of God. Once we die time is no longer a handicap for us, (for the believers at least). When I read scripture pertaining to God or death, time is one thing I try to erase for my mind, (it's not easy sometimes) when I can do this my understanding is much more clear. My understanding of this is also based on much more the speculation, (personal experience). My mother experience the same thing in an auto accident where she was knock unconcious.

I think there is a judgment at death, and that determines if we sleep or not. Sleep seems to always be referenced to the believer. Either way we are bound for the first or the second resurrection, we have been judged.

Believe me guys…if you have never had a near death experience, everything you say is mere SPECULATION. I think these things have happened to some of us to bare witness, (this does not make these people special). At first you are confused, but later it becomes clear. From what I have read about these things there are three different experiences that people have.

• They have an experience of total torment.
• They have an experience of being with God.
• They have an experience of total unconsciousness and no passing of time.

I think the reason for this is that God is trying to tell us what happens after death. The third one appears to say that nothing happens, but that is not so. It means that for the believer, their resurrection to be with God has nothing to do with time.

The sleep I am talking about is simply resting at peace until our Lord comes. Please do not be so shallow everyone to think it has anything to do with the sleep of the body. The body returns to dust. The soul is at peace and rest (sleep) until our Lord comes. The Day of the Lord is witnessed for the believer at that very same moment that we die. Forget time...or you will get lost in it.
:wink:

 

[GraceBwithU]

Adimael,
Have you ever had a near death experience? I'm not talking about an illness or accident that the doctors did not know if you were going to make it. I'm talking about you are out of this world, totally unattached to it anymore. :wink:

 

[Catholic Crusader]

What does it matter when we are judged? It is appointed unto man once to die, and then the judgment.

Well, you could apply that question to anything: What does it matter if the Blessed Virgin was bodily assumed into heaven? I don't think you'd let that one slide so easily though. :D

It matters because some Christians believe you are in a sort of "sleep" state when you die. That belief nullifies debate on, among other things, the intercession of the saints in heaven. So, I like to hear from you Sola Scriptura folks who believe we are judged immediatly upon death, so I can see how you reckon that position strictly from scripture.

Then I can steal your work and add it to my "Praying To The Saints" arguments. LOL :P Hey, you take wwhat you can wherever you find it.

 

[Free]

That belief nullifies debate on, among other things, the intercession of the saints in heaven. So, I like to hear from you Sola Scriptura folks who believe we are judged immediatly upon death, so I can see how you reckon that position strictly from scripture.

I am more certain that I could show that there is no intercession of the saints in heaven than I could show that we are judged immediately upon death.

 

[Catholic Crusader]

....I am more certain that I could show that there is no intercession of the saints....

I don't think so, although I'm sure you could convince yourself of that. :