JUDGEMENT

[Lonelyguide]

Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven. Luke 6:37

Do not be deceived by ego and listen only to the Holy Spirit, the Call to Atonement, for no matter what you think or say to justify the unjustifiable, for every judgement there is a price to pay, because judging is the setting of a price. And as you set it you will pay. Each time. Without exception.

 

[cly]

Very true. In fact the Bible also says that if we do judge others that there will come a time when we too will be judged, and by our own measure at that.

 

[Vic C.]

Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven. Luke 6:37

Do not be deceived by ego and listen only to the Holy Spirit, the Call to Atonement, for no matter what you think or say to justify the unjustifiable, for every judgement there is a price to pay, because judging is the setting of a price. And as you set it you will pay. Each time. Without exception.

What is being alluded to here is a type of karma; "what goes around, comes around". That's not what Jesus is referring to here. He is pointing out how wrong it is to judge someone without knowing all the facts; without cross-examination; without examining the fruit, so to speak. Gossip is one of those things that leads to this type of false judgement.

Personally, I find it sad that verses like this one and Matthew 7:1 have become the new, liberal Christian Gospel message, surpassing in popularity and truth the likes of John 3:16 and John 14:6. It's new age humanism creeping into the Truth. Not that I'm condoning judging others, but what ever happened to "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind." (Matthew 22:37) :-?

 

[Lonelyguide]

What is being alluded to here is a type of karma; "what goes around, comes around".

No. It is true that my above post explains the causal context of judging (i.m.o. necessary, because I encounter a lot of judging in these threads) but the above is your perspective c.q. interpretation. Not mine. If you wish to know how I view judging, please read this post:

http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopic.php?p=221407&highlight=#221407

That's not what Jesus is referring to here. He is pointing out how wrong it is to judge someone without knowing all the facts

We can never know all the facts. Judging is wrong. Period.

Without cross-examination

Please, Vic! With respect, but where do you get this all from? Jesus never mentioned cross-examination. : He simply told us not to judge and cross-examination is nothing but an attempt to justify the unjustifiable.

without examining the fruit, so to speak. Gossip is one of those things that leads to this type of false judgement.

All judgements are false judgements!

Personally, I find it sad that verses like this one and Matthew 7:1 have become the new, liberal Christian Gospel message, surpassing in popularity and truth the likes of John 3:16 and John 14:6. It's new age humanism creeping into the Truth. Not that I'm condoning judging others, but what ever happened to "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind." (Matthew 22:37) :-?

How can you mention Matthew 22:37 by itself? Did anyone ever state that the content of Matthew 22:38-39 is less important? You cannot do one without the other!

 

[Vic C.]

Oh, ok. :-D

 

[Lonelyguide]

Actually there is yet a third perspective to judging and that perspective is probably one of the two most damaging.

One ... i.m.o. the least "damaging" ... is the one of cause and consequence or, as you say, Vic, the one of Karma or "what goes around, comes around." The laws of cause and consequence, however, only have effect within this world.

The second is the one I mentioned in the Bodisattva thread: by placing a brother outside of the Kingdom, one places oneself out off it!

The third perspective is that we choose to follow the wrong teacher (ego) and therefore lose our path, because we can no longer hear the Right Guide (Holy Spirit).

 

[Free]

Lonelyguide,

Now that I have seen your expansion on what you mean by judgement, I can see more clearly how wrong you are.

The laws of cause and consequence, however, only have effect within this world.

You'll have to clarify this as the Bible shows that what do here has consequences in the spiritual world as well.

Your second and third perspectives are essentially the same, except that the second is someone judging someone else and the third is you judging someone else. Actually, I find your whole post quite unclear. You have certainly strayed from what Christ meant when he said not to judge. The context of the passage indicates that we are not to think we are morally superior when we make judgements. Indeed, Jesus even said that when we judge, we are to do so correctly.

And you are wrong on your second perspective. No one in the Bodisattva thread has "placed a brother outside of the Kingdom". This really highlights the biggest problem with your type of thinking that is so prominent in the modern Church. People take Matthew 7:1 so out of context that one is forced to accept even JWs and Mormons as Christians merely because they claim to be Christians, without even examining their heretical teachings as the NT continually instructs us to do. JWs are not Christians so no one is "placing a brother outside of the Kingdom".

You seem to be able to judge others' beliefs without it being judging while someone doing the same is being judgemental, according to you. How does that work? You've done it in this thread and the Bodisattva thread.

 

[Gary]

Good post Free!

 

[Lonelyguide]

Actually, I find your whole post quite unclear.

Having meanwhile read some of your posts, I can understand that.

I know what I know, Free ... and I am grateful for what I know. As for the subject of this thread ... my above posts, even if they appear to be insufficient for you, will have to suffice. And ... all of it stands.

As for what you say about "my type of thinking:" just remember that we were promised a Second Coming and ask yourself where 2000 years of "your kind of thinking" and the kind of understanding it has provided have gotten mankind so far. Despite all the "editing" and all the "censoring" we still have a "manual" that functions, but very, very few are using it the way it was meant to be used.

Luke 14:33 tells us that we can only commune with Christ if we surrender all the things of mind. Very few of us have gone that far, Free, but have received what was promised.

You seem to be able to judge others' beliefs without it being judging while someone doing the same is being judgemental, according to you. How does that work? You've done it in this thread and the Bodisattva thread.

This, Free, is where the "right judgement," that you mentioned in the other thread, comes in. Right now I do not have the time to explain "right judgement" in detail, but lets just say that "judgement" is a thing of ego and "right judgement" isn't.

... and - to provide you with another clue - one can not judge a belief system from within ... one has to do what Luke 14:33 says. It is the only way.
Within this context and the Bodhisattva thread you mention ... synchronistically I have left a post for you in that thread. It is about ego.

 

[Free]

As for what you say about "my type of thinking:" just remember that we were promised a Second Coming and ask yourself where 2000 years of "your kind of thinking" and the kind of understanding it has provided have gotten mankind so far.

There certainly are some negatives, but you seem to be failing to look at what Christianity has actually done. Of course, there are many ways to consider your statement, so you should clarify precisely what you mean before I try and answer further.

Luke 14:33 tells us that we can only commune with Christ if we surrender all the things of mind. Very few of us have gone that far, Free, but have received what was promised.

Actually, that is not even close to what Luke 14:33 states. You are clearly reading into the text what you want. If you read Matthew 5:8, "Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God," you will see that you are wrong.

This, Free, is where the "right judgement," that you mentioned in the other thread, comes in. Right now I do not have the time to explain "right judgement" in detail, but lets just say that "judgement" is a thing of ego and "right judgement" isn't.

Essentially, you and your judgement are right and everyone who disagrees with you and your judgement is wrong and speaks from "ego". Humility is one of the highest virtues in true Christian spirituality, just so you're aware.

... and - to provide you with another clue - one can not judge a belief system from within ... one has to do what Luke 14:33 says. It is the only way.

So why do you think I am wrong in judging JWs, I am not within their belief system?

 

[Lonelyguide]

As for what you say about "my type of thinking:" just remember that we were promised a Second Coming and ask yourself where 2000 years of "your kind of thinking" and the kind of understanding it has provided have gotten mankind so far.

There certainly are some negatives, but you seem to be failing to look at what Christianity has actually done. Of course, there are many ways to consider your statement, so you should clarify precisely what you mean before I try and answer further.

For me ... Christianity is what man has done with Christ's teachings. As such I am not interested in Christianity. I am interested in Christ and in His teachings and I am not interested in the mere interpretations of others or in debate. I share and I will henceforth clarify only when I believe that the one receiving the clarification has somewhat of an open mind, has somewhat of an idea as to where I and "my" concepts may be coming from and may be capable of some form of understanding. That is all. If you need to debate, please find someone else.

Luke 14:33 tells us that we can only commune with Christ if we surrender all the things of mind. Very few of us have gone that far, Free, but have received what was promised.

Actually, that is not even close to what Luke 14:33 states. You are clearly reading into the text what you want. If you read Matthew 5:8, "Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God," you will see that you are wrong.

Here we go again ... "wrong" and "right."

OK ... one last time ... Luke 14:33:
#1. Back in the days of Jesus, a disciple was not primarily, as is believed nowadays, a pupil. Rather, a disciple was someone who dwelled within a community. Jesus' disciples consequently lived "within the community" of Jesus. Ergo, when Jesus said "cannot be my disciple" about someone, it indicated that this person could not be part of His community (in the widest sense imagineable ... ).
#2. Jesus was a spiritual leader. Of course He didn't care for the things of this world and of course He didn't want us to focus on material things, but surely you cannot be so naive as to believe that when Jesus said "everything he has," He merely referred to material things.
#3. Search Truth and, since you are likely to search it from your "level" of consciousness, it will elude you. One does but encounter Truth when one meets Its conditions ... when one completely surrenders to it.
#4. Only with a completely open mind ... a mind that finally surrenders ... will you find Truth. Where you are now, your mind is closed and the filter of your perceptions dictates what you "see." Thus it is impossible for you not to believe what you see, but it is equally impossible for you to see what you do not believe ...!

Other than that ... in this world, where few speak because they have something to say and where most merely say things because they have to talk, listening is becoming somewhat of an art. Thus you could also have opted to open your mind for what I was sharing. After all, you had that choice. Perhaps you might have learnt something. One never knows, does one?

This, Free, is where the "right judgement," that you mentioned in the other thread, comes in. Right now I do not have the time to explain "right judgement" in detail, but lets just say that "judgement" is a thing of ego and "right judgement" isn't.

Essentially, you and your judgement are right and everyone who disagrees with you and your judgement is wrong and speaks from "ego". Humility is one of the highest virtues in true Christian spirituality, just so you're aware.

Why do you think Humility may be part of my signature line? I could tell you things about it, Free ... But I will not, because your posts tell me that we may be chapters apart, because your mind appears to be closed and because clarifications will thus only lead to more debate. Consequently I will leave you to your judgements of me.

... and - to provide you with another clue - one can not judge a belief system from within ... one has to do what Luke 14:33 says. It is the only way.

So why do you think I am wrong in judging JWs, I am not within their belief system?

... I was talking about your belief system, Free. Perhaps you should read my post again.