Drew said:
veteran wrote:
So why did you conviently omit all the Scripture evidence in Daniel that decalres Christ coming to knock the beast image down, and setting up an everlasting Kingdom conditional to the 70 weeks prophecy, i.e., the tribulation timing?
This begs the question. I suspect that you are mistaken about the “timing†of the 70 week prophecy. I admit that I have not studied that prophecy. I am also willing to bet the “tribulation†you refer to is something that has already taken place. But we do know one thing - through his invocation of Daniel 7 before Caiaphus, Jesus is claiming to be the Son of Man figure who gets enthroned as king over all the nations as of His resurrection. I have gone through that argument in some detail. You really need to attack my argument directly if you want to sustain your position. It is not adequate to refer to the 70 week prophecy as if your view that it is inconsistent with Jesus already being enthroned does not need to actually be defended.
I am quite confident that such an argument will not succeed because then we would have contradiction in the Scriptures. Jesus really cannot be misunderstood: He tells Caiaphus that he (Caiaphus) will live to see Jesus enthroned as king of all the world. Jesus knows Daniel 7 – He would not allude to it if He were not telling Caiaphus that He (Jesus) were not to be shortly enthroned as King of all the world. Let’s be clear – the Son of Man figure in Daniel 7 is clearly described as being enthroned over all the world.
OK, I don't think that is as difficult as one might think it is. Here's the Scripture I must assume Drew is speaking of, since I can't find where he referenced it from The Bible. There's another version in Luke 14:62.
Matt 26:59-64
59 Now the chief priests, and elders, and all the council, sought false witness against Jesus, to put Him to death;
60 But found none: yea, though many false witnesses came, yet found they none. At the last came two false witnesses,
61 And said, "This fellow said, 'I am able to destroy the temple of God, and to build it in three days'".
62 And the high priest arose, and said unto him, "Answerest Thou nothing? what is it which these witness against Thee?"
63 But Jesus held His peace. And the high priest answered and said unto Him, "I adjure Thee by the living God, that Thou tell us whether Thou be the Christ, the Son of God."
64
Jesus saith unto him, "Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven."
(KJV)
I assume you (Drew) might be looking at the Greek words for "Hereafter" in verse 64, which points to a separation of time with apo, and arti, two Greek words used to render KJV "Hereafter". Lot of the 'Kingdom now' folks try to take advantage of adverbs like "shortly" (Rev.1:1), "at hand" (2 Thess.2:2, Rev.1:3), etc., to interpret that Christ's Kingdom and even His second coming happenned back in the days of His Apostles, instead of being set at a later time. But the meaning of "Hereafter" in Matthew 26:64 simply means 'from' and 'now' (2 words in the Greek). The two words together is similar how we use the word 'hereafter' in our English language, except it's emphatic, like "from this day forward".
We do know from other Scripture that our Lord Jesus soon after His Resurrection ascended to Heaven to the right hand of The Father. But even the time after His Resurrection Mary saw Him, and He told her not to touch Him, for He had not yet then ascended to The Father (John 20:17). That proves the point that "Hereafter" does not mean at that very moment, for even when Jesus said "Hereafter" to Caiaphas, Christ had yet to be crucified on the cross. Our Lord Jesus was of course talking about AFTER His Resurrection He would sit on the Right Hand of The Father.
So what about the part, "...and coming in the clouds of heaven" at the end of Matt.26:64?
1Thes 4:17
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
(KJV)
Apostle Paul said that Thessalonians verse sometime later after Christ's Ascension to The Father. What does that show? It makes a distinction between the time of Christ's Ascension, and His coming with the clouds of heaven.
Rev 1:7
7 Behold, He cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see Him,
and they also which pierced Him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of Him. Even so, Amen.
(KJV)
Our Lord Jesus gave His Book of Revelation through His servant the Apostle John while John was captive on the Isle of Patmos, even still at a later time. The early Church fathers establish that time as being during the reign of Domitian, around 96 A.D. So already there is a period of something like 60 years after Christ's Ascension to The Father, and His coming with the clouds of heaven had still not happenned yet when John was at Patmos.
Note the part in bold of Rev.1:7, "and they also which pierced Him". That refers to even those like Caiaphas who had our Lord Jesus delivered up to be crucified. And note not only they that pierced Him are to see that, but "every eye" also. That establishes Christ's coming with the clouds as no private coming that Caiaphas would see. Even when our Lord Jesus appeared to His disciples after His Resurrection, it was still not that coming with the clouds of heaven, because again, John was given to write of that event as still future to his day while captive on the Isle of Patmos.
What of other Scripture about that event of Christ coming with the clouds of heaven? Is there any other Scripture evidences about it? Yes.
Matt 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30
And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31
And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
(KJV)
Notice our Lord Jesus links that time of His coming with the clouds of heaven with a specific timing, and specific events, i.e., "Immediately after the tribulation", and with sending His angels to gather His elect servants at the sound of a trumpet. There's another version of that in Mark 13...
Mark 13:25-27
25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27 And then shall He send His angels, and shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
(KJV)
Note a bit more information with that Mark 13:27 verse, involving the gathering of His saints "from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven." Where are His saints today? Those still alive are on this earth, showing that gathering has not happenned yet, for that's about the resurrection of the dead.
Can we just stop there with those other Scripture references linked to that event of Christ's coming with the clouds of heaven? Absolutely not, not if we really want the full Truth of it. Since Christ linked His coming with the clouds of heaven to the "four winds" subject, and sending His angels to gather His elect on earth, and those who sleep in Jesus from the heavenly, ONE MUST include ALL Scripture events that are tied with it. It would take me days... just to post all of it here. The worst thing to do though, is to stop looking at all the relevant Scripture to His coming with the clouds of heaven.
This will lead to the subject of the Rev.13 beast kingdom timing, the ten horns system Daniel was given to write of, the seven trumpets of Revelation and their associated events, especially the third last woe with the seventh or last trumpet that signals Christ's coming, the seven vials being poured out upon the wicked, and even the end of this earth age per Scripture in both the New Testament and Old Testament prophets.
Now with the Daniel 7:13-14 verses you posted before, I've already shown that must happen per the order given in the Book of Daniel regarding more of its directly related Scripture. Even going up a couple verses prior to what you quoted from Dan.7 gives a different time picture than what you proposed...
Dan 7:11-14
11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake:
I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.
12 As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.
13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought Him near before Him.
14 And there was given Him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve Him: His dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.
(KJV)
That beast kingdom being slain and given to the burning flame is about the final end of ALL beast kingdoms on this earth. Then just a few verses later in the same Dan.7 chapter, we're given a bit more detail as to the order of the beast kingdom timing and the timing when the saints will possess the kingdom under Christ....
Dan 7:19-22
19 Then I would know the truth of the fourth beast, which was diverse from all the others, exceeding dreadful, whose teeth were of iron, and his nails of brass; which devoured, brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with his feet;
20
And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows.
21
I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;
22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.(KJV)
The fourth beast was pagan Rome (legs of iron). But note there's another that comes up after that among ten horns (ten kings), called the "little horn" of Dan.7:8. Back in Daniel 2 we're shown a final kingdom referred to with the feet of unmixed iron and clay, and that's specifically where Christ will strike at His coming to bring the whole beast image down, and then He sets up His everlasting Kingdom mentioned there (Dan.2:38-44). That's the last beast kingdom on earth, the one of the feet of iron mixed with clay, and is about the "little horn" time.
And per Dan.2, we know when Christ strikes the feet of unmixed iron and clay, the whole... beast image comes tumbling together, which includes breaking of the
gold, the
silver, the
brass, the
iron, and the
clay (Dan.2:45). Notice that is 5 parts, not 4 parts to the beast image. And if all those are broken by Christ together when He strikes it feet, like the Daniel Scripture says, what does that mean what all the final beast kingdom of part iron and clay includes? It is to include ALL the previous beast kingdoms within it, subordinate to it.
This is also the picture in Revelation 13 & 17, for we are told the ten kings will have no power until the beast king arrives, and they will give their power to him (Rev.17:10-14). The picture is about ten kings (ten horns), and then another king, and beast king ("little horn") that arises among them, which is when they receive power, and also give it over to him. All those ten kings and that beast king ("little horn") are contemporary to each other.
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