Lent

[tjw]

I'm not sure where to put this, but, what are your views on lent?

 

[Nathan]

I'm not sure where to put this, but, what are your views on lent?

If you mix it with wax its good for starting fires.....

 

[tim-from-pa]

I'm not sure where to put this, but, what are your views on lent?

It's pagan, traditions of men with Christ's name stamped on it.

Christ's time in the wilderness took place in the late autumn, not in the late winter or early spring.

So, don't give up anything for it. It may sound noble, but it's just works.

 

[Mike]

The Resurrection is the most important event in the history of creation. I fail to see how anyone can find reason to be critical of a period to focus our hearts on this. Likely, the same people opposed to lent/Easter are opposed to celebrating Christmas. I don't understand either. Tim, to suggest that it's pagan or find fault in the timing of Easter on our calendar year seems to be missing the forest for the trees. If anyone chooses not to celebrate Easter, I believe they're missing out on something meaningful, but I would never be critical of them.

I don't give up anything, nor do I do anything specific during this period in the way of works. It is simply a time to devote special contemplation on Jesus' Resurrection. Yes, this is something that should always be remembered, and I believe in general Christians throughout the world do. No, there is nothing wrong with giving it even more of a focus in the days preceding our commemoration of it. Adding attention to it during this period does not mean taking it away during other parts of the year.

 

[Free]

I'm not sure where to put this, but, what are your views on lent?

I think Lent is a great tradition to follow, as is the whole Christian calendar. Such traditions were formed, at least in part, for the spiritual formation of the believer as their life is constantly focused on the life of Christ. I also think that the western church would be much better off if Evangelicalism embraced such traditions.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

I don't bother with any of it.

"what are your views on lent?"

Just "another religious tradition" that some folks "take seriously", and some don't.

I don't.

Simple as that.

 

[handy]

The church calendar is something that I've come to understand more as I've grown older. I used to be almost hostile to the idea of the church calendar, dismissing it as "man-made tradition" (which it is).

But, now I do see value in emphasizing certain aspects our our walk with God throughout the year. As Mike said, Lent is a good time to reflect upon what drove Christ to Calvary...Easter is a time to rejoice in the Resurrection, Pentecost a remembrance of how the Holy Spirit has empowered us and equipped us to go forth into the world. These are good things to remember, both as individuals and corporately.

I'm still pretty hostile to the idea of Mardi Gras or Carnival. Seems to me the over riding idea of Mardi Gras/Carnival is "let's wallow in and celebrate sin so that grace may abound".

 

[tim-from-pa]

The Resurrection is the most important event in the history of creation. I fail to see how anyone can find reason to be critical of a period to focus our hearts on this. Likely, the same people opposed to lent/Easter are opposed to celebrating Christmas. I don't understand either. Tim, to suggest that it's pagan or find fault in the timing of Easter on our calendar year seems to be missing the forest for the trees. If anyone chooses not to celebrate Easter, I believe they're missing out on something meaningful, but I would never be critical of them.

I don't give up anything, nor do I do anything specific during this period in the way of works. It is simply a time to devote special contemplation on Jesus' Resurrection. Yes, this is something that should always be remembered, and I believe in general Christians throughout the world do. No, there is nothing wrong with giving it even more of a focus in the days preceding our commemoration of it. Adding attention to it during this period does not mean taking it away during other parts of the year.

Well, I understand your point, but we can do this biblically to get the same results.

And the LORD spake unto Moses and Aaron in the land of Egypt, saying,
This month shall be unto you the beginning of months [first month called Nisan]: it shall be the first month of the year to you.

This prepares one for the holy days coming up.

In the tenth day of this month they shall take to them every man a lamb, according to the house of their fathers, a lamb for an house:

This was fulfilled when Jesus came to Jerusalem commonly called "Palm Sunday" the start of the Holy Week.

And ye shall keep it up until the fourteenth day of the same month: and the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill it in the evening.

Late on the 14th day this was fulfilled with Jesus' crucifixion.

Immediately after that, we have Unleavened Bread feast on Nisan 15 at full moon. That was fulfilled with the sinless body of Christ being interred and by extension, his people coming out of their sins.

Then the feast of Firstfruits (on the morrow after the weekly Sabbath) was fulfilled in the resurrection. This was a movable date feast since it was designated on a specific day of the week. On the year the Lord died, it would have been on Nisan 18--- 3 days after he was interred.

So, who's giving up celebrating? There's just a biblical way and calendar to do that with. A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump.

 

[dobro]

Wether its Lent, Christmas ,Easter or whatever tradition you subscribe to it is nothing we dont need these things. We need the faith of the son of God. My family were devout Catholics none of these traditions led us to Christ in fact my parents are still unsaved . They will argue with you in the defence of these traditions and observe them but for knowing the truth and having the freedom which comes with knowing christ they are dead. The Devil keeps them blinded in works. Every day I awake I am grateful for the gift of resurection life isnt it better to obey than to sacrifice.

 

[Nathan]

My thoughts lay in the middle of it all. I do not see any "holiday" as being of any importance.

The Christian is supposed to walk with one thing looking forward to. The coming of our Lord to end this sojourning. Other than that, all the other 'days' focus on one thing, while leaving another out.

There is no denying that the holidays were transformed from pagan beliefs in an effort to 'win' them over to Christ. It allowed them to keep their traditions, but still "believe" in Christ. There was no emphasis of leaving the old man behind and becoming a new man.

This is true, and undeniable, for the fact that even today we still practice things directly associated with those pagan holidays. We have 'transformed' them into what we think is 'spiritual', in an effort to associate them with a "Christian life". But the simple fact is that Christ never directed us to do so.

So we do it under the banner of "freedom". They look good from the outside. They sure do. I mean come on, the birth of Christ. The resurrection of Christ.

But what it serves to do is keep us focused on the things happening here on the earth. Our focus is to be on Christ seated in the heavens.

Are the "traditions" harmless? I do not know how they effect others, I can only speak for myself. And the fact is that when I look at the physical side of things I neglect the spiritual. I get caught up in emotion and not in wisdom. Holidays are in essence an appeal to the fleshly side of man.

So too with lent. Its man taking control of himself, which is not bad for we are to have self-control, but its him taking control for a designated period of time verses all the time. Not true? Look around. People celebrate the time before and after with sensuality. Try to suppress the flesh in the flesh and you will reap the fruits of the flesh.

The "days" set up by God for Israel to observe were days that focused on the coming Messiah and the coming reign of the Messiah. Those things happened. They are here. There is no need to have "special" days now.

 

[dobro]

A very good answer Nathan well explained.

 

[francisdesales]

Wether its Lent, Christmas ,Easter or whatever tradition you subscribe to it is nothing we dont need these things. We need the faith of the son of God. My family were devout Catholics none of these traditions led us to Christ in fact my parents are still unsaved . They will argue with you in the defence of these traditions and observe them but for knowing the truth and having the freedom which comes with knowing christ they are dead. The Devil keeps them blinded in works. Every day I awake I am grateful for the gift of resurection life isnt it better to obey than to sacrifice.

Lent is a time of spiritual renewal, the concept taken from a very biblical notion - 40 days in the desert preparing oneself. "Offer yourself as a spiritual sacrifice", Paul wrote to the Romans. Who exactly are you obeying? Yourself? How do you think Paul crucified his flesh? By wishful thinking and warm fuzzy notions of the Resurrection? Of course not. He fasted, gave alms, and prayed, something fundamentally imbedded into his religious practice as a worshipper of God through Judaism first and Christianity later.

Unfortunetly, it is not surprising to me that some "Christians" do not feel the need to undergo the Biblical rigors of self-analysis, fasting, and a more general attitude of repentance and sacrifice (carrying the cross) as one journeys towards Christ. Many Christians have decided to take the "wide path", rather than taking up their cross. How many modern Christians have read the works of such men as Deitrich Bonhoeffer? Any Christian worth their salt (excuse the pun) knows that the journey is not smooth sailing, and we need occasional reminders and examinations of self.

But then, there are a lot of Christians who have "lost their saltiness" and don't even know it. However, they "KNOW" that their parents are unsaved. 2

 

[Igor]

...However, they "KNOW" that their parents are unsaved. 2

Wow. Cold, man. Very cold!

 

[Mike]

Well, I understand your point, but we can do this biblically to get the same results.

So, who's giving up celebrating? There's just a biblical way and calendar to do that with. A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump.

Forgive me if I'm simplifying your argument, but I believe you are complicating something that doesn't need to be. Lent is a special time for me to reflect on everything that occurred: the Passion, the death and the Resurrection. I believe there can become an extreme where a person follows certain rituals in certain order, but I don't view it that way. For me, it's simply a time where increased emphasis and quiet time in prayer is spent.

Wether its Lent, Christmas ,Easter or whatever tradition you subscribe to it is nothing we dont need these things. We need the faith of the son of God.

I'm not sure how this applies to Lent as a period of introspection and reflection, but any period of time that we feel draws more meaning to the Resurrection cannot be bad. You may not feel you "need" it, and I would never judge you for saying you don't. Like you, I was Catholic, but I'm not anymore. I have no rules about eating/not eating meat on certain days. For me it's not about rules dictated by a church. It's about my relationship with Christ. As I understand the Catholic purpose for not eating meat, it's to increase the reminder that this is a special time. I don't see anything wrong with that unless there is guilt imposed if they "break the rules" and do eat meat on days they're told they shouldn't.

But what it serves to do is keep us focused on the things happening here on the earth. Our focus is to be on Christ seated in the heavens.

So too with lent. Its man taking control of himself, which is not bad for we are to have self-control, but its him taking control for a designated period of time verses all the time. Not true? Look around. People celebrate the time before and after with sensuality. Try to suppress the flesh in the flesh and you will reap the fruits of the flesh.

Hi Nathan. :waving I hope I've made myself clear by now that Lent does not mean "denying myself" or "forcing" physical things upon myself. It is ALL spiritual. I do not "celebrate" Lent, but I absorb it in personal refection to fix my heart on the Cross. Personally, there is nothing about the flesh involved in this time. It's all about things of His Kingdom.

 

[JamesG]

'

The idea of the “Christian year†developed long before the split between the East and the West, well over a thousand years ago. I believe that God allowed this development in Christianity for a particular purpose. To help those associated with Christianity as it existed at that time up to the present, believer and unbeliever alike, to focus on two things throughout the year. First on the life of Christ from his birth to his death. Second on the lives of those who took seriously the claims of Christ from Pentecost to the present.

There is a misconception that has developed in relation to Lent. That is, that one supposed to give up something. Rather, the purpose of Advent (the month prior to Christmas) and Lent (the month prior to Easter) is one of preparation. Advent is a preparation for a special day that commemorates, not just the birth of Christ, but the incarnation of the Son of God, the lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world. Lent is a preparation for a special day that commemorates, not just the death of Christ, but the crucifixion of the lamb of God for the sins of the world. The aspect of the Christian year that commemorates the life of Christ commemorates what God accomplished through Jesus Christ for mankind, a created and fallen race that is condemned by its own sinful nature through its connection to Adam. In Adam all are dead, but in Christ all who believe into Christ and are baptized into Christ are made alive.

The commemoration at Easter is not intended to supersede the Lord’s Table in any way. This is seen by the fact that those denominations of Christianity who most follow the Christian year participate in their own version of Lord’s Table more often than most who do not follow the Christian year.

The aspect of the Christian year that includes Pentecost to just before Advent commemorates the lives of certain individuals who are considered heroes of the faith. It is often associated with the doctrine of the communion of the Saints that includes praying to the saints. This has been a distraction in relation to the basic idea of this aspect of the Christian year, an aspect that simply brings to the attention of all that there is a cloud of witnesses throughout history to the Reality that is in Jesus Christ.

How any of this can be taken as pagan is beyond my limited mental capacity. The date of Christ’s birth is unknown. But the date of the crucifixion is known by its association with the Passover. The date for the birth of Christ in the Christian year was set in relation to the known date of the crucifixion of Christ. The fact that the date of the birth of Christ happens to coincide with the date of a particular pagan holiday is irrelevant. It is the content that is important.

Christians tend to emphasize what they like and what they don’t like and Jesus Christ is left out in the cold as a result. Christianity is a man-made religion. But to center ones critique of that religion against that which is good in that religion is foolishness and shows the critic to be a fool.

“Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.†The words of Paul in Philippians 4:8 KJV.

The basic idea of the Christian year is true and honest and pure. There is nothing that is lovelier to the one who is truly in Christ than the life of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ who reveals the true God to us; and that loveliness is associated with the lives of those who are known for their desire to be conformed to him, whether past or present. In that I offer praise to God. And I offer praise to God for the existence of the Christian year, especially in that portion of Christianity in which most of the adherents are born into a religion. Who have the Gospel of Jesus Christ preached to them through the readings of the Bible that are associated with the Christian year. Who have the Gospel preached to them on a yearly basis.

JamesG

 

[JamesG]

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Francisdesales

It has been a long time since I heard from you. I hope it wasn’t something that I said. I have learned a great deal from our email conversation. I may not agree with everything, but I understand the Catholic position, and I think Christianity as a whole, a little better.

I will not say anything against the tone of your post, because I agree with it. Fundamentalist Protestants have a tendency to throw out the baby with the bathwater. Converts from Protestantism to Catholicism tend to praise their time as Protestants. Converts from Catholicism to Protestantism tend to reject everything Catholic. Their loss in my opinion.

I posted my thoughts on Lent before I read all of the posts and recognized your avatar and name. I was, as you, responding to the negativism that I saw on this thread in the first few posts. I decided that this thread needed a little more balance.

I especially appreciated that first paragraph. I had never associated Lent with the forty days in the Bible until you mentioned it. Moses was prepared to give the ten commandments to Israel by forty days on the Mount. Before taking the land of Canaan, Israel searched the land for forty days. Jesus was prepared for his ministry by forty days of fasting and temptation by Satan in the wilderness. So also we are prepared for the commemoration of the crucifixion of the lamb of God on our behalf by forty days of fasting, and those of us who are in Christ, also by temptation by Satan. It is one way that we who are in Christ take up our cross and follow our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

I consider many things in relation to the Church year according to the Catholic version. I am after all, a Westerner, even though I am neither Catholic nor Protestant.

Good to hear from you again. Even if it is only on this forum. I hope that you were able to gain something positive from my post that will enhance your preparation for the up coming commemoration.

JamesG

 

[francisdesales]

Francisdesales

It has been a long time since I heard from you. I hope it wasn’t something that I said. I have learned a great deal from our email conversation. I may not agree with everything, but I understand the Catholic position, and I think Christianity as a whole, a little better.

I also enjoyed our discussions. Did I owe you a letter? No, it wasn't anything you said, it was me. I had become something of a day trader in the stock market over the last two months, and it is pretty time intensive. I was getting frustrated repeating the same stuff, seeing the same hatred here over and over, from professing "Bible believing Christians". I have come to realize that it (immersion in the market) was hurting my spirituality because I wasn't able to read or pray as much as I should be... Thankfully, the Lord straightened out my priorities. So now, it's just a matter of closing out a few option spreads on expiration Friday, and I'm back to mutual funds and buy-and-hold!!!

I will not say anything against the tone of your post, because I agree with it. Fundamentalist Protestants have a tendency to throw out the baby with the bathwater. Converts from Protestantism to Catholicism tend to praise their time as Protestants. Converts from Catholicism to Protestantism tend to reject everything Catholic. Their loss in my opinion.

As an RCIA coordinator, I fully agree with your comments there. I suppose there is some sense of burning the bridges so as to villify one's former position in the Catholic Church. It seems the more anti-catholic, the more you are accepted by "everyone" that you are over your past "affiliation" and have become "born again". Thus the sense of rabid hatred and a universal twisting of the beliefs of the Church. On the other hand, going in the other direction, the idea of "fullness of the truth" is not mutually exclusive of a number of things learned as a Protestant. In actuality, some of our best Catholics are former non-Catholic Christians...

I see being a Protestant as good training to become fully Catholic (Protestants are already Catholic, in some mysterious manner, according to their Baptism)

I posted my thoughts on Lent before I read all of the posts and recognized your avatar and name. I was, as you, responding to the negativism that I saw on this thread in the first few posts. I decided that this thread needed a little more balance.

I especially appreciated that first paragraph. I had never associated Lent with the forty days in the Bible until you mentioned it. Moses was prepared to give the ten commandments to Israel by forty days on the Mount. Before taking the land of Canaan, Israel searched the land for forty days. Jesus was prepared for his ministry by forty days of fasting and temptation by Satan in the wilderness. So also we are prepared for the commemoration of the crucifixion of the lamb of God on our behalf by forty days of fasting, and those of us who are in Christ, also by temptation by Satan. It is one way that we who are in Christ take up our cross and follow our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

Yes, 40 is a commonly re-occuring theme for the preparation for either mission or for meeting God. I think people do not like Lent because they just hate things Catholic and they despise the sense of sacrifice. Being a child of society, we are trained not to appreciate self-sacrifice, so it is not surprising that some are averse to the idea, even in a religious setting with a set of Scriptures that praise the idea of sacrifice, fasting and picking up our cross. The idea is certainly Biblical and is very helpful in one's spiritual growth. Humans need periods of such training, whether physical or spiritual.

But because it is prescribed by the Catholic Church, it somehow becomes a "tradition of men" that is to be avoided, in some people's minds.

Good to hear from you again. Even if it is only on this forum. I hope that you were able to gain something positive from my post that will enhance your preparation for the up coming commemoration.

Well, the fact that you enjoyed our conversations is good to hear! If you find that last letter you sent, resend it, and I'll take another look at it.

Take care, James

Joe

 

[JamesG]

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Francisdesales

This time of Lent is a good time to review our priorities. It is a little easier to see the importance of the cross in our lives. It is a good time to renew our relationship with our Saviour Jesus Christ who carried his cross on our behalf.

It is true that some Protestants have a problem with certain ideas because of their perception that they are simply Catholic. It was very noticeable on the thread, “Mysticism Infiltrating the Church(es) ....â€. When Protestants get that notion, no amount of Biblical quotations is going to change their mind. And when one can’t hear Scripture, especially a Protestant who emphasizes the Divine source of the Scripture, what is believed becomes a simple matter of personal bias.

But then, maybe we all have our biases that we won’t realize we have until we are with Jesus. As Paul said, “For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.†And a lot was revealed to Paul. Meanwhile, I guess we all have to go with what little understanding we have. I have learned to be tolerant of other peoples beliefs and try to understand them the best that I can while simultaneously retaining my own understanding of reality that I believe has been taught to me by Jesus Christ as the Word of God using the Bible as the written word of God through the Spirit of God. It has allowed me to see that there are more beliefs that we hold in common than there are that are a matter of disagreement. And that makes me believe that there are more people in Christianity who are truly in Christ than I once thought. And it makes me more against the practice of interdenominational closed communion. And as near as I can gather, some of my beliefs are impossible for other people to understand. But these matters are not the subject of this thread.

The idea of Lent is simply the idea of preparation for a day that reminds us of what Jesus as the lamb of God has accomplished on our behalf, and it is a time of renewal in our own desire and practice to pick up our own cross and follow Jesus. It is intended that everyone who is in Christ have such a desire. It is a help toward our being conformed to the image of Jesus Christ. The day for which we prepare is closely related to, but not the same as, our connection to that eternal saving event wherein the lamb of God sacrificed himself on our behalf, through our participation in the Lord’s Table or Eucharist. I’m not sure how Catholic or Protestant that is. But that’s how I see it.

I actually sent three emails that had no response. Let me know when your day trader thing (as you can see, that idea went way over my head) is done and I’ll send my last question.

JamesG

 

[francisdesales]

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Francisdesales

This time of Lent is a good time to review our priorities. It is a little easier to see the importance of the cross in our lives. It is a good time to renew our relationship with our Saviour Jesus Christ who carried his cross on our behalf.

It is true that some Protestants have a problem with certain ideas because of their perception that they are simply Catholic. It was very noticeable on the thread, “Mysticism Infiltrating the Church(es) ....â€. When Protestants get that notion, no amount of Biblical quotations is going to change their mind. And when one can’t hear Scripture, especially a Protestant who emphasizes the Divine source of the Scripture, what is believed becomes a simple matter of personal bias.

But then, maybe we all have our biases that we won’t realize we have until we are with Jesus. As Paul said, “For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.†And a lot was revealed to Paul. Meanwhile, I guess we all have to go with what little understanding we have. I have learned to be tolerant of other peoples beliefs and try to understand them the best that I can while simultaneously retaining my own understanding of reality that I believe has been taught to me by Jesus Christ as the Word of God using the Bible as the written word of God through the Spirit of God. It has allowed me to see that there are more beliefs that we hold in common than there are that are a matter of disagreement. And that makes me believe that there are more people in Christianity who are truly in Christ than I once thought.

Agreed, which is why I scratch my head when I see such comments directed at wholesale groups of Christians. That's one of the things I like about being Catholic. Universal. Open to other people's means of worshiping, seeing truth to some degree in ALL men's worship of God. We recognize that no one has perfection of cult. And to state that someone is not saved and going to hell based upon their religious orientation has a bit too much religious pride for my tastes.

.
And it makes me more against the practice of interdenominational closed communion. And as near as I can gather, some of my beliefs are impossible for other people to understand. But these matters are not the subject of this thread.

LOL! I never knew this about you! ;)

While I understand your desire for utopia in the here and now, as long as men have difference of opinions, closed communion seems to me a necessity brought about by the state of fallen man. NO ONE here has total access to the truth and knowledge of the mysteries of God. And if you look carefully at the Scriptures, you won't find "open communion" there, either. Paul is quite adamant with Christians of his community spending time with those outside their particular beliefs. Judaizers and Gnostics. Were they granted "open communion" in John's community? Peter also had some things to say about false teachers and those who followed them.

No doubt, in heaven, there will be one visible community that follows God and exemplifies the example of the catholic church, a universal body with one faith, one baptism, etc. But in the interim, men have chosen not to have "one faith", etc. How can we shout to the Lord as one and proclaim a statement of faith when we disagree on what that proclamation means?

I see the need for it here, but I think we can be sure those walls will come down in the next world.

.

The idea of Lent is simply the idea of preparation for a day that reminds us of what Jesus as the lamb of God has accomplished on our behalf, and it is a time of renewal in our own desire and practice to pick up our own cross and follow Jesus. It is intended that everyone who is in Christ have such a desire. It is a help toward our being conformed to the image of Jesus Christ. The day for which we prepare is closely related to, but not the same as, our connection to that eternal saving event wherein the lamb of God sacrificed himself on our behalf, through our participation in the Lord’s Table or Eucharist. I’m not sure how Catholic or Protestant that is. But that’s how I see it.

I agree with it completely.

.

I actually sent three emails that had no response. Let me know when your day trader thing (as you can see, that idea went way over my head) is done and I’ll send my last question.

James, I apologize. This Friday at market closing is "expiration Friday", the day that option (stock derivatives) expire worthless. Think of them as coupons you bought from a store for a pizza at 50% price that expire this Friday. People sell those "coupons" and can make money if people are paying more for pizza and you hold a coupon bought for cheaper! Well, without getting into too many details, that day can be very busy for someone with that "coupon", as options is a leveraged investment, a control of many more shares than if you bought a stock outright with cash. Needless to say, such things need to be monitored - and it takes more time than I desire to commit to it (although money can be made very quickly. A person can double their money in two days. Happen to know if Luluemon's earnings will be positive tomorrow morning???

Send your last question and I'll try to get to it this weekend. I'm busy Friday, but Sat-Sun should be lighter, since I won't be researching my next spread to buy.

Joe

 

[JamesG]

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Francisdesales

“Utopia”? No, I’m not a utopian. I just understand unity in a different light. Unity is being one through our having the same life through our relationship to the same Lord through our connection to the same Spirit. This is the unity that is available to us in this life if we would only receive it. But only for those who don’t believe that they have the whole truth and nothing but the truth. Christianity sees unity as being one in doctrine. And you are quite right when you say that doctrinal unity is impossible in this life. The existence of secular nations and Christian denominations pretty much proves that point.

The practice of closed communion is ONLY in relation to those who are not in Christ, such as members of non-Christian religions. The Eucharist is an experience that is only intended for those who are in Christ. Everything in the Liturgy of the Word is intended to build us together and to Evangelize the seekers. And so also, the Eucharist is intended to build us together, not tear us apart through a practice of interdenominational closed communion.

From my reading of the early Church Fathers, that is what they believed also. The practice of interdenominational closed communion did not begin until after the early Councils separated Christianity into a denominational expression that included the denomination that is the source of the denominations that currently call themselves the East Orthodox Church and the Roman Catholic Church, and the denominations that are now referred to as the Eastern Oriental Churches. The Roman Catholic Church is the source of what are referred to as Protestant Churches.

On another thread, I mentioned how many Eastern Orthodox claim that Catholicism and Protestantism are two sides of the same coin. I pointed out that the Orthodox don’t realize that the coin is three sided and includes the Eastern Orthodox Church. Upon further reflection, I have to modify that to the coin being a four sided coin that includes the Eastern Oriental Churches also.

If the Protestant Movement had been tolerated by the Western Church of the 16th century as the Charismatic Movement has been tolerated by the Roman Catholic Church recently, there would be no Protestant denominations today. The Protestant Movement would probably have become another religious Order that emphasized the Bible and living the Christian life. Something like the Benedictines who emphasized a prayer form that emphasizes the Psalms, from which comes the Divine Office as we know it today. But that is simply a what if scenario perhaps only appreciated by fellow Science Fiction fans. We have to live today with what actually occurred.

The Catholic Church since Vatican II claims that all who believe and have been baptized are true Christians, including Protestants. The only reason Catholics practice closed communion in relation to Protestants is because of doctrinal differences. And most of Protestantism has the same practice. They didn’t pick up the practice in a vacuum. Those Protestants who try to reject everything Catholic? I notice they don’t reject the practice of interdenominational closed communion. Maybe they don’t realize where the practice came from.

I agree with no Christian denomination doctrinally. I would have to start a new denomination in order to practice my faith in a corporate manner from the perspective of doctrinal unity. Like we need another Christian denomination. Thank God for my lack of personal charisma.

I have opted for a different way. I presently attend a Roman Catholic Church with my wife who is a Roman Catholic. The Liturgy is currently very close to the pattern of meeting of the ekklesia. The Bible readings are synonymous with the teaching of the Apostles. The practice of the homily and Creed probably is a development from the Spiritual functions, called Spiritual gifts today.

In the Protestant Liturgy the sermon is emphasized. The idea of the sermon comes from the Catholic Homily. But I notice that those Protestants who reject everything Catholic haven’t rejected their practice of sermons.

Nevertheless, I can’t participate in the Eucharist in the Roman Catholic Church, according to the law of the Roman Catholic Church, because I disagree with some of the canonized doctrines. Thus, though I am Catholic in the sense of accepting all who are in Christ, I am not a Roman Catholic. This presents a problem to one who believes that participation in the Eucharist is important. So after the Mass, I bring my wife home and then I attend a Protestant Liturgy that happens to have a weekly Lord’s Table meeting that follows a prior meeting that corresponds to the Catholic Liturgy of the Word. I attend the second meeting that is the Lord’s Table meeting, and thus miss out on all of the Protestant sermonizing. Further, they are not so strict in their practice of closed communion and accept me as a fellow believer allowing me to participate in their Lord’s Table. Inconvenient? Yes. But it is a viable solution to the problem.

But what kind of reality is this solution advocating? What does this say about Christianity? It is my opinion that it is a shame on Christianity that this solution is even necessary.

“I see the need for it (the practice of closed communion) here (in this life)”.

And you are totally right from the perspective of Christianity. Unity in Christianity is doctrinal unity. And I agree with you. Apart from the intervention of God, as it has been for fifteen hundred years, this is how it will be for the foreseeable future.

During the Old Testament era, there are numerous examples wherein God allowed the people of God to have what they wanted, rather than destroy them outright because they refused to follow the revealed will of God. He is doing the same for us today. The will of God is unity in Christ through the Spirit of God. But if we are determined to have unity by doctrine, so be it. We are so often tyrants wanting our own will, even over the will of God. Maybe we will learn something from the suffering that our own will causes, and has caused over many centuries. Perhaps this time of Lent will help us to see how different we are from the meek and humble Son who subjected his own will to that of the Father, even to his own death. Let us praise God for the meek and humble Son, apart from whom, there would be no Lent and no Easter, and no Salvation through the sacrifice of the Lamb of God.

Anyway, that’s how I see it.

“Think of them as coupons you bought from a store for a pizza at 50% price that expire this Friday. People sell those "coupons" and can make money if people are paying more for pizza and you hold a coupon bought for cheaper! Well, without getting into too many details, that day can be very busy for someone with that "coupon", as options is a leveraged investment, a control of many more shares than if you bought a stock outright with cash. Needless to say, such things need to be monitored - and it takes more time than I desire to commit to it (although money can be made very quickly. A person can double their money in two days.”

Sounds pretty speculative. Personally, I’m not smart enough to be involved in that kind of speculation. But some people do manage to make a decent living through that practice. Especially, before the “recession”. I hope it is working out for you.

“Send your last question and I'll try to get to it this weekend. I'm busy Friday, but Sat-Sun should be lighter, since I won't be researching my next spread to buy.”

I will try to send it as soon as possible. I think it is still saved in my email.

I was going to add something to Alabaster’s post on another thread because I know how hard it is for a Catholic to understand the Protestant idea of being born again. But I thought better of it. She already thinks that I have a problem with “book larnin”. Besides it’s just plain rude to interrupt another’s conversation.

JamesG