Bible Study Livitical Law: In grace or in force?

[Silverchild79]

The old Testament Laws, from Leviticus and Deuteronomy are an interesting topic for consideration.

I just want to hear every one's views on this. From what I've heard there are two main opinions, obviously either we are or aren't still under the laws of the old testament.

The idea that we aren't under the law is debatable and the way we live as Christians IF we are still under the law raises some questions.

my main questions is to the pro law group of posters:

Most of the people who still think Levitical Law is in force, well really all of them, seem to treat it as what I call "Buffet Style Dogma"

Meaning that things like Tattoo's are sinful because "You shall make no mark upon you", but things like wearing socks with elastic bands or polly cotton slacks "Wear no garment made of more then one material" is now okay. Eating a medium rare steak, or eating swine (which is actually not Livitical but from Deteronomy, is now acceptable to most of this group of Christians as well but there is no basis for these beliefs. Actually it could be argued that it's the culture of man defacing God's law, if you think "The Law" still governs us. "Buffet Style Dogma" is a reflection of how people pick and choose what's still inforce.

what do you guys think?

 

[Silverchild79]

Oh come on, nobody wants to touch this?

It's seems as if Jesus is quoted several times as saying the Law is still in force, can somebody kick some knowledge on this?

 

[Silverchild79]

Nothing like Debating yourself

Here's a god example that "The Law" has come and gone

Hewbews 8

1The point of what we are saying is this: We do have such a high priest, who sat down at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in heaven, 2and who serves in the sanctuary, the true tabernacle set up by the Lord, not by man.
3Every high priest is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices, and so it was necessary for this one also to have something to offer. 4If he were on earth, he would not be a priest, for there are already men who offer the gifts prescribed by the law. 5They serve at a sanctuary that is a copy and shadow of what is in heaven. This is why Moses was warned when he was about to build the tabernacle: "See to it that you make everything according to the pattern shown you on the mountain."[a] 6But the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, and it is founded on better promises.

7For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another. 8But God found fault with the people and said:
"The time is coming, declares the Lord,
when I will make a new covenant
with the house of Israel
and with the house of Judah.
9It will not be like the covenant
I made with their forefathers
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they did not remain faithful to my covenant,
and I turned away from them, declares the Lord.
10This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel
after that time, declares the Lord.
I will put my laws in their minds
and write them on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
11No longer will a man teach his neighbor,
or a man his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,'
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest.
12For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more."[c]

13By calling this covenant "new," he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.

 

[Silverchild79]

And here's a good example that the Law is still in force

Mattew 5: 17-20

" Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach [them], the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed [the righteousness] of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven. "

 

[Vic C.]

I think the Forum may need a breather from this discussion/debate, which would explain the no-posts. This is a subject that has been hashed out many times before on this site.

Christians should use these words from our Master to decide what and if anything should be done with Levitical dietary and ceremonial Laws.

Mat 22:36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
Mat 22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Mat 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

 

[Silverchild79]

I was wondering why people weren't all over this

so after much debate there is no consensus, hmm

 

[jgredline]

Silverchild

I guess allot depends on how much time you would like to spend on this topic, but here are some things to ponder and some things to chew on...Perhaps others will join in....

First thing is this...
The Old Testament is a ''picture'' of what is in the New testament...

Secondly, As Jesus said, he did not come to abolish the law but to full fill it....
Now what Jesus is speaking about is the ''spiritual law'', not the physical law...A couple of other things that will help us to understand the OT is the understanding that Apostle Paul when he speaks of the flesh, he too is speaking of the spiritual and when the Apostle John speaks of the flesh, he speaking of the physical....

Now, how does this apply to us who are ''under grace'' on this side of the cross?...

We need to start with a familiar verse....Eph 2:8-9 nkjv
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

Verse 8 tells us simply that we are saved by Grace through faith ''alone''
It is an unconditional free gift...It is un merited, un deserved...
Verse 9 tells us that this saving grace is NOT a result of works so that NO man can say he had something to do with his own salvation...Salvation comes from God and God alone.....

OK, now lets move on to the most theologically rich book in all the bible in ''my opinion'' and there are many who would agree...''ROMANS''

Paul systematically uses the first 6 chapters of Romans to show that there is no one that can ''keep the law'' and he uses this to the advantage of the Gospel of ''Grace''....

Now here is the key...A Christian is not ''bound'' by the law, but will want to naturally keep the law...

Now you have certain groups who teach one must ''keep'' the physical Law in order to remain saved or get saved and this is clearly against scripture...and
in particular the Gospel of Grace, which is the Gospel of Jesus Christ...

So Anyway, this should get us started....

 

[Silverchild79]

Can we post a collection of Pro Law or Against Law versus without arguing? Then we can pick through them and attempt to get a total picture of what the bible says.

just but in bold "Pro Law" or "Against Law", not to show your stance, but to show what the verse reflects

also

in Hebrews in seems that Paul is quoting from the old testament, what is he referring to?

 

[Vic C.]

I think to do that, we may want to work out what applied to the Hebrews (before the resurrection) and what applied to the gentiles (after the resurrection).

 

[Silverchild79]

my point exactly, let's pour all the puzzle pieces on the table and then see if we can put them together

and again can someone tell me what Paul was referring to when he spoke of the New Covenant replacing the old (as in what chapter/ verse of the OT)

 

[Silverchild79]

oh, I found it

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Jeremiah 31: 31-34;&version=31;

 

[jgredline]

oh, I found it

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Jeremiah 31: 31-34;&version=31;

Ok so what is it that you are looking to get out of this section of scripture? Are u looking for a possible interpretation / commentary on it?

 

[Vic C.]

Excellent place to start! Great passage. Now, anyone, who is/are the house of Israel and the house of Judah? 8-) This is very important prophetically, historically and doctrinal purposes.

 

[jgredline]

Excellent place to start! Great passage. Now, anyone, who is/are the house of Israel and the house of Judah? 8-) This is very important prophetically, historically and doctrinal purposes.

Well lets see.
As I recall, the house of israel in the northern kingdom...(all evil and wicked kings)
The house of Judah is the southern kingdom where the messiah came from... 8-)

 

[Silverchild79]

so I suppose my largest question is if we are beyond the law why does Christ say essentially "Until the heaven and earth pass away not the slightest pen stroke shall be removed", and then goes on to give further corroborating evidence in what he meant by reiterating that rebellious children should die.

"For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death"

a reference to the book of Exodus

But

Jeremiah 31 says that the new covenant will replace the old and hebrwes says the old covenant will fall away and be no more

But

Jesus says in the Sermont that he has NOT come to replace the covenant

 

[protos]

The short answer to your dilemma is that the new covenant has further revealed the nature of the old. Jesus revealed that the Law is in your hearts, not just doing it hypocritically like the Pharisees. Since before the New Testament the only revelation from God was the Old, the only means of obtaining salvation was by following the Law. With Christ's coming that was repealed.

 

[Vic C.]

The short answer to your dilemma is that the new covenant has further revealed the nature of the old. Jesus revealed that the Law is in your hearts, not just doing it hypocritically like the Pharisees. Since before the New Testament the only revelation from God was the Old, the only means of obtaining salvation was by following the Law. With Christ's coming that was repealed.

• :D

I think to do that, we may want to work out what applied to the Hebrews (before the resurrection) and what applied to the gentiles (after the resurrection).

my point exactly, let's pour all the puzzle pieces on the table and then see if we can put them together

and again can someone tell me what Paul was referring to when he spoke of the New Covenant replacing the old (as in what chapter/ verse of the OT)

It wasn't just Paul who spoke of a new covenant:

Mat 26:26 And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body.
Mat 26:27 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;
Mat 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament (covenant), which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

 

[jgredline]

Jesus revealed that the Law is in your hearts

Vic
I agree with what you have said and this sentence from Protos says allot.
If we can begin to understand that Jesus was speaking of spritual law as was Paul, I believe then we can really begin to understand the New Covenant and really appreciate the cross....Lets not forget also about ''all the Orthodox Jews''
who are still living by the Mosaic law and waiting for the Messiah...Where does this put them in the whole salvation process?? Anybody want to take a stab at it?