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Logical Fallacies - just for your information

reba said:
So is the answer for me to conform to what "they" think i s correct? If i dont wish to conform then i should not post or talk to others?
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It is interesting, perhaps a sad commentary on some posters, that I provided a link to this below, and that absolutely no one went here to look at the definition from an unbiased source. therefore, I copy it below:
noun
1.the science that investigates the principles governing correct or reliable inference.
2.a particular method of reasoning or argumentation:
We were unable to follow his logic.
3.the system or principles of reasoning applicable to any branch of knowledge or study.
4.reason or sound judgment, as in utterances or actions:
There wasn't much logic in her move.
5.convincing forcefulness; inexorable truth or persuasiveness:
the irresistible logic of the facts.​
http://www.dictionary.com/browse/logic?s=t

So what we seem to be dealing with on this is the basic emotion of FEAR.
FEAR of the usage of a science
FEAR of a particular (scientific) method of reasoning or argumentation
FEAR of a method of learning and acquiring knowledge that is universal because it can be applied to any other science from math to language study to phys ed, or drivers education.
FEAR of changing due to the usage of reason.

From my study of the APOSTLE Paul, he would be appalled by such unsound thinking,being prideful about not thinking about the steps from which we build boulders of doctrine and irrational fear. Anyone who studies his writings in a systematic manner or of John, or of Luke, or the Author of Hebrews surely goes away with a deep appreciation for systematic theology. Just for an example, John makes a "dictionary of terms" in 1 John 4 because he says "This is....." seven different times, and in eah case, he is describing something different.
FEAR of exercising sound judgment


2 Timothy 1:13 Follow the pattern of the sound words that you have heard from me, in the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus

Titus 1: 9 He must hold firm to the trustworthy word as taught, so that he may be able to give instruction in sound doctrine and also to rebuke those who contradict it.

Titus 1: 12 One of the Cretans, a prophet of their own, said, “Cretans are always liars, evil beasts, lazy gluttons.”
13 This testimony is true. Therefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith,
14 not devoting themselves to Jewish myths and the commands of people who turn away from the truth.
15 To the pure, all things are pure, but to the defiled and unbelieving, nothing is pure; but both their minds and their consciences are defiled.
16 They profess to know God, but they deny him by their works. They are detestable, disobedient, unfit for any good work.

Did you guys catch what Paul said about the usage of logic in teaching, discussing, and presenting truth?

Read verse 13 again if you didn't, then dare to state that Paul does not think that the usage of logic is important. Everyone of you who listen to a sermon on Sunday listen to logic. Expository preaching is taught in every seminary, and among the courses that the denominations that offer licenses/ordination to those who who take their courses of study. And it is a prerequisite for every preacher to create a way using logic to take the congregation from where they were when they entered the church to the place where God wants his shepherd to leave them when the benediction comes.

Do I hear an "AMEN" from those posters who are/have been preachers on that point?
 
By Grace said:
It is interesting, perhaps a sad commentary on some posters, that I provided a link to this below, and that absolutely no one went here to look at the definition from an unbiased source. therefore, I copy it below:
noun
1.the science that investigates the principles governing correct or reliable inference.
2.a particular method of reasoning or argumentation:
We were unable to follow his logic.
3.the system or principles of reasoning applicable to any branch of knowledge or study.
4.reason or sound judgment, as in utterances or actions:
There wasn't much logic in her move.
5.convincing forcefulness; inexorable truth or persuasiveness:
the irresistible logic of the facts.​
http://www.dictionary.com/browse/logic?s=t

So what we seem to be dealing with on this is the basic emotion of FEAR.
FEAR of the usage of a science
FEAR of a particular (scientific) method of reasoning or argumentation
FEAR of a method of learning and acquiring knowledge that is universal because it can be applied to any other science from math to language study to phys ed, or drivers education.
FEAR of changing due to the usage of reason.

From my study of the APOSTLE Paul, he would be appalled by such unsound thinking,being prideful about not thinking about the steps from which we build boulders of doctrine and irrational fear. Anyone who studies his writings in a systematic manner or of John, or of Luke, or the Author of Hebrews surely goes away with a deep appreciation for systematic theology. Just for an example, John makes a "dictionary of terms" in 1 John 4 because he says "This is....." seven different times, and in eah case, he is describing something different.
FEAR of exercising sound judgment


2 Timothy 1:13 Follow the pattern of the sound words that you have heard from me, in the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus

Titus 1: 9 He must hold firm to the trustworthy word as taught, so that he may be able to give instruction in sound doctrine and also to rebuke those who contradict it.

Titus 1: 12 One of the Cretans, a prophet of their own, said, “Cretans are always liars, evil beasts, lazy gluttons.”
13 This testimony is true. Therefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith,
14 not devoting themselves to Jewish myths and the commands of people who turn away from the truth.
15 To the pure, all things are pure, but to the defiled and unbelieving, nothing is pure; but both their minds and their consciences are defiled.
16 They profess to know God, but they deny him by their works. They are detestable, disobedient, unfit for any good work.

Did you guys catch what Paul said about the usage of logic in teaching, discussing, and presenting truth?

Read verse 13 again if you didn't, then dare to state that Paul does not think that the usage of logic is important. Everyone of you who listen to a sermon on Sunday listen to logic. Expository preaching is taught in every seminary, and among the courses that the denominations that offer licenses/ordination to those who who take their courses of study. And it is a prerequisite for every preacher to create a way using logic to take the congregation from where they were when they entered the church to the place where God wants his shepherd to leave them when the benediction comes.

Do I hear an "AMEN" from those posters who are/have been preachers on that point?
Click to expand...
Not all here attend a church whose pastor and or demonation has a bible college or seminary requirement.I have been under those.Visit some of the poor black churches here and you will see that.
 
reba said:
  • This is the one that stands out to me

  • : a particular way of thinking about something
Click to expand...

Reba,

I did not ask you for a dictionary definition of 'logic'. My question to you in #197 was: 'Would you please provide me with your definition of logic?' You have not provided your own understanding of logic but have gone to a dictionary for an explanation. I was hoping it would come from the mind of Reba.

I do wish you would provide the source of your copy and paste, which Google was able to tell me was from the Merriam-Webster Dictionary (logic)

If you look at the fuller definition of 'logic' from Merriam-Webster Dictionary, you will find this:

Full Definition of logic
1 a (1) : a science that deals with the principles and criteria of validity of inference and demonstration : the science of the formal principles of reasoning (2) : a branch or variety of logic <modal logic> <Boolean logic> (3) : a branch of semiotics; especially : syntactics (4) : the formal principles of a branch of knowledge

b (1) : a particular mode of reasoning viewed as valid or faulty (2) : relevance, propriety

c : interrelation or sequence of facts or events when seen as inevitable or predictable

d : the arrangement of circuit elements (as in a computer) needed for computation; also : the circuits themselves

  1. 2 : something that forces a decision apart from or in opposition to reason <the logic of war>
You say that the one (aspect of definition) that stands out for you is, 'a particular way of thinking about something'.

Why don't you accept this explanation from the fuller definition of logic, 'a particular mode of reasoning viewed as valid or faulty'?

This whole thread has been dealing with ways to identify faulty reasoning. This is a core element of the definition of logic.

Oz
 
reba said:
LOL how did i know what ever i posted would not be accepted .. any one need more fodder?
Click to expand...

That's a red herring, Reba. When you don't address what I wrote in #204 and give your spin off in another direction, you change the topic and that is a red herring. At the beginning of this thread, Jim Parker provided a definition and explanation of a red herring. Here it is again in case you've forgotten, from The Nizkor Project:
Fallacy: Red Herring

Also Known as: Smoke Screen, Wild Goose Chase.

Description of Red Herring
A Red Herring is a fallacy in which an irrelevant topic is presented in order to divert attention from the original issue. The basic idea is to "win" an argument by leading attention away from the argument and to another topic. This sort of "reasoning" has the following form:
  1. Topic A is under discussion.
  2. Topic B is introduced under the guise of being relevant to topic A (when topic B is actually not relevant to topic A).
  3. Topic A is abandoned.
This sort of "reasoning" is fallacious because merely changing the topic of discussion hardly counts as an argument against a claim.

Examples of Red Herring
  • "We admit that this measure is popular. But we also urge you to note that there are so many bond issues on this ballot that the whole thing is getting ridiculous."
  • "Argument" for a tax cut:
    "You know, I've begun to think that there is some merit in the Republican's tax cut plan. I suggest that you come up with something like it, because If we Democrats are going to survive as a party, we have got to show that we are as tough-minded as the Republicans, since that is what the public wants."
  • "Argument" for making grad school requirements stricter:
    "I think there is great merit in making the requirements stricter for the graduate students. I recommend that you support it, too. After all, we are in a budget crisis and we do not want our salaries affected."
Now please get back to answering the content of what I wrote in #204, instead of giving me your smoke screen, wild goose chase, red herring fallacy.

Oz
 
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reba said:
LOL how did i know what ever i posted would not be accepted .. any one need more fodder?
Click to expand...
I'm sure you aren't thinking this out.see my case with math, grammar.Hebrew and or Greek has rules of grammar and tenses.These do change over time.The bible wasn't written in Modern Hebrew and the Masoretic text Is in Paleo-Hebrew.It had the vowels,modern Hebrew didn't write them and still doesn't. LOGIC and its definition of way of thinking applies to languages as these reflect a culture. If you notice I am big on old homes.European influences in Our Nation vary with each home they built and we borrowed from.Each unique and had to function and could be artistic. I prefer the Spanish Revival ,then Colonial Revival and thirdly, Federal Revival ,last Victorian. Each different and each taking a style to get it done. YET all must stand,protect from the elements and be enough for the function it was intended for.

Logic works with any language and answer to any question.If you think you must reason .Sometimes our thoughts and solutions are incorrect.To get that answer a process Is required. I had to take courses in critical thinking for my Rank in the military
 
jasonc i gave my view of logic a few post back .. being asked after i posted my view i went to the dictionary.. and that also was not accepted..
Most every thing i do carries a hefty load of logic.. Example I have been painting the bedroom Logic says remove the ugly moldings etc first, then patch the holes prime the walls before you paint.. .. in logical order.. Paying the bills .. etc

I pick up the pine cones before i mow because it is logical.
sure language has logic.. the logical sentence structure of English is not the same as Spanish.

IT was totally illogical of me to even put my hands on that a rope last Sunday..

I see this as a big part of PC think like 'they"do.... respond as 'they' want.. never mind that your life lessons lead you in a different way.. your thoughts are not important...conform .. conform 1984

jasonc i thank you for trying to help me .. :)
 
jasonc said:
Not all here attend a church whose pastor and or demonation has a bible college or seminary requirement.I have been under those.Visit some of the poor black churches here and you will see that.
Click to expand...
These sentences in the post to which you replied covers such a thing:

By Grace said:
Expository preaching is taught in every seminary, and among the courses that the denominations that offer licenses/ordination to those who who take their courses of study. And it is a prerequisite for every preacher to create a way using logic to take the congregation from where they were when they entered the church to the place where God wants his shepherd to leave them when the benediction comes.
Click to expand...

jasonc said:
Logic works with any language and answer to any question.If you think you must reason. Sometimes our thoughts and solutions are incorrect.To get that answer a process Is required.
Click to expand...

Why do you think that so many are hostile to what is natural, and required.

Heck, I even quoted Paul, and his support of sound doctrine and sound thought. Sheesh!
 
By Grace said:
These sentences in the post to which you replied covers such a thing:





Why do you think that so many are hostile to what is natural, and required.

Heck, I even quoted Paul, and his support of sound doctrine and sound thought. Sheesh!
Click to expand...
Antintellectualism in the church.I have been taught that.We assume that one leaves the brain at the door of faith .
 
reba said:
jasonc i gave my view of logic a few post back .. being asked after i posted my view i went to the dictionary.. and that also was not accepted..
Most every thing i do carries a hefty load of logic.. Example I have been painting the bedroom Logic says remove the ugly moldings etc first, then patch the holes prime the walls before you paint.. .. in logical order.. Paying the bills .. etc

I pick up the pine cones before i mow because it is logical.
sure language has logic.. the logical sentence structure of English is not the same as Spanish.

IT was totally illogical of me to even put my hands on that a rope last Sunday..

I see this as a big part of PC think like 'they"do.... respond as 'they' want.. never mind that your life lessons lead you in a different way.. your thoughts are not important...conform .. conform 1984

jasonc i thank you for trying to help me .. :)
Click to expand...
Syntax is the Exact same in Spanish. I dId take three Years of Spanish .

Me Llamo es Manuel en la clase de Espanol.
 
reba said:
jasonc i gave my view of logic a few post back .. being asked after i posted my view i went to the dictionary.. and that also was not accepted..
Most every thing i do carries a hefty load of logic.. Example I have been painting the bedroom Logic says remove the ugly moldings etc first, then patch the holes prime the walls before you paint.. .. in logical order.. Paying the bills .. etc

I pick up the pine cones before i mow because it is logical.
sure language has logic.. the logical sentence structure of English is not the same as Spanish.

IT was totally illogical of me to even put my hands on that a rope last Sunday..

I see this as a big part of PC think like 'they"do.... respond as 'they' want.. never mind that your life lessons lead you in a different way.. your thoughts are not important...conform .. conform 1984

jasonc i thank you for trying to help me .. :)
Click to expand...
Debates and the rules of it predate America and have nothing to do with 1984.That position of quelling counter thought implies usage of logical fallacy.ie calling one a racist when the definition of a racist has nothing to do with the position.
 
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