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[_ Old Earth _] LOGICALLY FLAWED

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pasta911

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The claim "intelligent design is a valid alternative" is LOGICALLY FLAWED, and here is why:Answer this Question: "Was the Intillegent Designer intelligently designed?"If YES, then there is an endless recursion of intelligent designers.If NO, well then consider that WE HUMANS tend to think of ourseleves as intelligent designers. If a Universal Intelligent Designer could manage to exist without being intelligently designed, then why can't WE exist without being intelligently designed?
 
It goes back to first origins. Creationists and evolutionists believe there was a time when there were no humans. However, Creationists believe that God has existed for all time and was not created.

Where I see similarities is that if God can exist without a cause, a universe could exist without a cause.

What gets some Creationists hung up is they see God as eternal but the universe as not external. This is due to a misunderstanding of what time is. The universe is just as eternal as God would be. However, inside the universe, there is a starting time. "Eternal" usually means something "beyond time in our Universe".

Quath
 
We Christians may not be the ones wrong. Your reply is also logically flawed.

What gets some Creationists hung up is they see God as eternal but the universe as not external. This is due to a misunderstanding of what time is. The universe is just as eternal as God would be. However, inside the universe, there is a starting time. "Eternal" usually means something "beyond time in our Universe".

I'd like to see you prove the Universe is eternal. You form your reason based on your denial of God and not on fact. that is the logical flaw.

Pasta, the things of God are beyond the logic of man. Hence He's God. 8-)
 
Timothy said:
I'd like to see you prove the Universe is eternal. You form your reason based on your denial of God and not on fact. that is the logical flaw.
I used "eternal" because there is no good word for it. Basically, we know that the universe includes time and space. If you could step outside of our universe, you step outside of time. If you could see, you would see the whole universe (at all times) as a static structure. It would "always" be like this.

What you are saying is that Logic comes from God because there is logic and therefore there must be a God. That is circular logic.

Quath
 
pasta911 said:
The claim "intelligent design is a valid alternative" is LOGICALLY FLAWED, and here is why:Answer this Question: "Was the Intillegent Designer intelligently designed?"If YES, then there is an endless recursion of intelligent designers.
Here is where you jumped the gun. You never answered your own question of IF. IF hasn't been answered and the evidence says NO.

If NO, well then consider that WE HUMANS tend to think of ourseleves as intelligent designers.
Humans have never considered themselves intelligent designers apart from cars and clothes.

If a Universal Intelligent Designer could manage to exist without being intelligently designed, then why can't WE exist without being intelligently designed?
There is that word IF again. Science doesn't like to use IF unless it can be tested so that is why ID should not be taught as IS.
 
Quath said:
I used "eternal" because there is no good word for it. Basically, we know that the universe includes time and space. If you could step outside of our universe, you step outside of time. If you could see, you would see the whole universe (at all times) as a static structure. It would "always" be like this.

What you are saying is that Logic comes from God because there is logic and therefore there must be a God. That is circular logic.

Quath

First, you're explaination of how the universe can be eternal provides for the existence of a timeless God. If God we're truly beyond the universe, his creation, then by your reasoning, that is perfectly logical to have a timeless God.

Second, I never said God gives Logic(However that is what I believe). I said you make your opinions based on a denial of God and not on science. Therefore making your logic biased, and hence flawed. I look at the facts, and with all science has to offer to explain life, it's not complete, nor is it all proven.

This is where you and I split paths. You would say that it's asking too much to believe in a "God of the Gaps" and I would say "It's quite easy to believe in a all sovereign God, when I place my trust in Him and His word, rather than the flawed ideas of men." It's called Faith, maybe you'll give it a try one day. 8-)
 
! God is the worst possible explanation for physical phenemomena! Saying that "God did it" doesn't help science advance at all, since it describes no working mechanisms, makes no predictions and therefore is not testable. Just because the physics of the present cannot answer your questions doesn't mean that they can't be answered. Newtonian physics couldn't explain the working mechanisms of the sun, but then particle physics came along and answered that question. Relativity and quantum physics cannot take us back to further than 10-43 of a second after the Big Bang occured, but someone in the future might. The bottom line is this: If we'd left the sun to "God's work" then we'd have no knowledge of nuclear physics, and a great deal of technology (like this computer) would be impossible. God is an unacceptable answer in science, as well as logic. This is why faith in God is irrational.
 
Scientists can't use whatever they want for evidence. Evidence gathering is a very strict process, subject to evaluation by peers. Furthermore, the Bible is not evidence in any sense of the word. It is completely unverifiable that God created the Universe out of nothing, because that violates the Law of Conservation of energy, which has never been proven incorrect. Unless creationists can recreate the creation of the Universe to test their opinion, it remains just that: an opinion. Scientists know some of what happened in the early Universe because of the predictions of particle physics theories, as well as measuring the cosmic microwave background radiation. Creationists "know" what happened because they read a book written by oppressive and arrogant Jewish males. See the difference? Where do the writers of the Bible get their information? There's no bibliography in the Bible. There are no independently verifiable sources. Evolution, as well as ever other theory in science, can be verified independently.
 
Timothy said:
We Christians may not be the ones wrong. Your reply is also logically flawed.

What gets some Creationists hung up is they see God as eternal but the universe as not external. This is due to a misunderstanding of what time is. The universe is just as eternal as God would be. However, inside the universe, there is a starting time. "Eternal" usually means something "beyond time in our Universe".

I'd like to see you prove the Universe is eternal. You form your reason based on your denial of God and not on fact. that is the logical flaw.

Pasta, the things of God are beyond the logic of man. Hence He's God. 8-)

Let's say we take a look at a very short cause-and-effect path. Tree comes from seed. Seed comes from other tree. Other tree comes from the Earth. The Earth comes from the Universe. The Universe comes from God. Therefore, God is the initiator. What is wrong with this conclusion? It skips the Universe as a candidate for an initiator. Why can't the Universe be the uncaused cause? Why can't it simply be eternal? This is a much more logical conclusion than "God," because we know the Universe exists! Therefore, the Universe is the uncaused cause. It simply is, and has always been.
 
Is the Universe the intelligent first cause? That would make it God which is what I believe alleged atheists truly believe anyway.

They worship creation instead of the Creator. Read Romans chapter 1

The evidence of design is everywhere. Unless, of course a person is in a state of denial like an atheist.

Romans 1:20-21 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
 
Here is the text of the statement that the ACLU argues is unconctitutional to be read in Dover, PA schools....

Text of the intelligent design statement Dover, Pa., teachers were instructed to read to their students:
The Pennsylvania Academic Standards require students to learn about Darwin’s theory of evolution and eventually to take a standardized test of which evolution is a part.

Because Darwin’s theory is a theory, it continues to be tested as new evidence is discovered. The theory is not a fact. Gaps in the theory exist for which there is no evidence. A theory is defined as a well-tested explanation that unifies a broad range of observations.

Intelligent design is an explanation of the origin of life that differs from Darwin’s view. The reference book, “Of Pandas and People,†is available for students who might be interested in gaining an understanding of what intelligent design actually involves.

With respect to any theory, students are encouraged to keep an open mind. The school leaves the discussion of the origins of life to individual students and their families. As a standards-driven district, class instruction focuses upon preparing students to achieve proficiency on standards-based assessments



...American "Civil Liberities" my A@#! :evil:
 
The evidence of design is everywhere.

No it isn't.

The above may seem like a flippant answer, but it is quite frankly all that the argument deserves. Does he give examples of this evidence? Does he explain why it necessarily requires intelligent design? No; he simply states his conclusion as fact.

In fact, any comparison of a real engineered product line to the biosystem would inevitably lead to the conclusion that the two are not remotely alike. Product features are not suddenly added with no precedents (for every organ such as the eye, there are countless simpler versions out there already; it's not like the sudden appearance of airbags in cars). Product features also never jump product lines; for example, the ability to breathe underwater never made its appearance among mammals. And finally, the minimalism of real engineered design is nowhere to be found in the unnecessarily complex natural world (there are tens of thousands of different species of beetle alone).

People who employ this argument often assume that the natural world is harmonious, hence well-designed. However, this could not be farther from the truth. The natural world is filled with death, starvation, suffering, and misery. At any given moment, millions of animals right now are whimpering in fear, dying of starvation, or desperately fighting for their lives. And this is the way the system normally works and has always worked, as demonstrated by the entirety of the fossil record. What kind of divine engineer would deliberately design a system so that its normal function involves so much death, suffering, and misery, and why would anyone call it "harmonious"?

For that matter, why should any of the organisms with larger brains have natural predators if a benevolent God designed the whole system? If you are a Christian and you honestly believe in a loving, benevolent God, you would do well to reconsider your belief that he actually designed the biosystem to function this way, because the only two possible explanations for the misery-filled "design" of the natural world are either divine cruelty or natural processes.
 
Here is a link to site that deals with this topic.

Who created God?

"Since God, by definition, is the creator of the whole universe, he is the creator of time. Therefore He is not limited by the time dimension He created, so has no beginning in time  God is ‘the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity’ (Isaiah 57:15). Therefore He doesn’t have a cause.

In contrast, there is good evidence that the universe had a beginning. This can be shown from the Laws of Thermodynamics, the most fundamental laws of the physical sciences.

1st Law: The total amount of mass-energy in the universe is constant.

2nd Law: The amount of energy available for work is running out, or entropy is increasing to a maximum.

If the total amount of mass-energy is limited, and the amount of usable energy is decreasing, then the universe cannot have existed forever, otherwise it would already have exhausted all usable energy  the ‘heat death’ of the universe. For example, all radioactive atoms would have decayed, every part of the universe would be the same temperature, and no further work would be possible."

http://www.christiananswers.net/q-aig/aig-c039.html
 
PHIL121 said:
Here is the text of the statement that the ACLU argues is unconctitutional to be read in Dover, PA schools....

Text of the intelligent design statement Dover, Pa., teachers were instructed to read to their students:
The Pennsylvania Academic Standards require students to learn about Darwin’s theory of evolution and eventually to take a standardized test of which evolution is a part.

Because Darwin’s theory is a theory, it continues to be tested as new evidence is discovered. The theory is not a fact. Gaps in the theory exist for which there is no evidence. A theory is defined as a well-tested explanation that unifies a broad range of observations.

Intelligent design is an explanation of the origin of life that differs from Darwin’s view. The reference book, “Of Pandas and People,†is available for students who might be interested in gaining an understanding of what intelligent design actually involves.

With respect to any theory, students are encouraged to keep an open mind. The school leaves the discussion of the origins of life to individual students and their families. As a standards-driven district, class instruction focuses upon preparing students to achieve proficiency on standards-based assessments



...American "Civil Liberities" my A@#! :evil:

HARRISBURG  Near the end of her stay on the witness stand during Day 8 of the Dover Panda Trial Wednesday, Bertha Spahr, head of the Dover Area High School science department, was asked whether she had considered how school board member Bill Buckingham felt when she accused him of “pushing a personal agenda†by forcing the district to adopt creationism.
Before she could answer, a lawyer for the plaintiffs rose and objected, partly on the grounds of relevance.

In other words, nobody gives a rat’s hindquarters whether Spahr may have hurt Buckingham’s feelings, legally speaking.

The truth of the matter, of course, is he was pushing a personal agenda, and if his feelings were hurt, well, that’s too bad because he’s never given the impression that he’s ever cared about anyone else’s feelings.

The judge sustained the objection, and we never got to learn whether Spahr cared about hurting Buckingham’s feelings.

And speaking of hurt feelings, you had to feel bad for Dover Supt. Richard Nilsen and the rest of the defendants, sitting in the gallery  on the defendant’s side of courtroom No. 2  when Brian Alters, a professor of science education and expert in teaching evolution, started talking.

It got ugly.

The defendants appeared to be relieved when Alters took the stand and said he taught at McGill University.

McGill is in Montreal.

That’s Canada.

You could almost sense the relief among the defendants. Canada? How bad could it get?

And then, the good doctor started testifying and in so many words, accused the school board and administrators, essentially, of child abuse.

And he was right.

Teaching intelligent design creationism in science class wasn’t just a bad idea, he said. It wasn’t just bad teaching. It was “probably the worst thing I’ve heard of in science education.â€Â

And it got worse.

He went through the four-paragraph statement that an administrator reads to drowsy kids at the beginning of their exploration of evolution and, line-by-line, tore it apart.

Let’s see. Consulting my notes, I see the words “terrible,†“dead wrong,†“wrong.†It went on and on.

He read statements from leading science and science education organizations, rejecting the notion of teaching intelligent design creationism, a nonscientific idea, as an alternative of the theory of evolution, one of the most well-supported theories in all of science.

Suggesting that intelligent design creationism is a viable alternative to evolution does the opposite of what the defenders of Dover say. It does not promote critical thinking, Alters said. It does not teach students to approach topics with an open mind. It does not contribute to student’s education in any way.

If anything, it reinforces misconceptions students may have about the subject of evolution.

It does, essentially, the opposite of educating. It contributes to ignorance.

Now, they may have some different ideas about education up in Dover, but I don’t think that’s one of them.

As Day 8 of the trial convened, the media herd had thinned somewhat. The woman from Paramount Pictures was gone, as were many of the magazine and book writers who had attended previous sessions. They were replaced by a woman from the New Yorker, from whom we can expect a sweeping, insightful, intelligent look at the controversy that’s sure to make the good denizens of Dover look like a bunch of doofuses, and a guy from Rolling Stone, who was present, I’m guessing, just in case Britney Spears offers her learned opinion on the case.

Now, there’s a class assignment: Britney Spears, evidence against intelligent design or what?
 
reznwerks said:
pasta911 said:
The claim "intelligent design is a valid alternative" is LOGICALLY FLAWED, and here is why:Answer this Question: "Was the Intillegent Designer intelligently designed?"If YES, then there is an endless recursion of intelligent designers.
Here is where you jumped the gun. You never answered your own question of IF. IF hasn't been answered and the evidence says NO.

If NO, well then consider that WE HUMANS tend to think of ourseleves as intelligent designers.
Humans have never considered themselves intelligent designers apart from cars and clothes.

If a Universal Intelligent Designer could manage to exist without being intelligently designed, then why can't WE exist without being intelligently designed?
There is that word IF again. Science doesn't like to use IF unless it can be tested so that is why ID should not be taught as IS.

Do you also believe that schools should teach that the Sun revolves around the Earth, or that disease is caused by pollution of the spirit rather than bacteria or viruses? Those are "alternative theories" too.

Let me assume that you do not think schools should be teaching Earth-centred solar systems or spirit-based disease theory in science. The next question becomes: why not? Is it because these other theories are unscientific? Of course, so this naturally leads to the next question: why do you think creationism is not similarly unscientific?

The fact is that creationism is not a scientific theory. It is a religious theory, not a scientific one. It belongs in Sunday School, not science class. The purpose of science class is to teach children what science tells us about the universe, not to teach what politicians or their constituents want to believe.

One might always argue that creationism is a scientific theory, but quite frankly, that is nonsense. Creationism has never been published as a scientific theory in any peer-reviewed journal whatsoever. Creationism does not define a physical mechanism; an essential component of a scientific theory. Creationism makes no testable predictions (in fact, the Bible warns not to test God); yet another essential component of a scientific theory. In short, creationism fulfills none of the requirements of a scientific theory, so it does not belong in the science class. And yes, all 3 omissions are also found in so-called "intelligent design" creationism.

It is not "fear" of "alternative theories" that motives scientists to say that creationism has no place in science class; it is the truth. It would be just as absurd to teach creationism in science class as it would be to teach that the Sun is pulled across the sky every day by the flaming chariot of Apollo.
 
pasta911 said:
Let's say we take a look at a very short cause-and-effect path. Tree comes from seed. Seed comes from other tree. Other tree comes from the Earth. The Earth comes from the Universe. The Universe comes from God. Therefore, God is the initiator. What is wrong with this conclusion? It skips the Universe as a candidate for an initiator. Why can't the Universe be the uncaused cause? Why can't it simply be eternal? This is a much more logical conclusion than "God," because we know the Universe exists! Therefore, the Universe is the uncaused cause. It simply is, and has always been.

Then why do you claim the Universe is Eternal, yet you support the Big Bang?

Relativity and quantum physics cannot take us back to further than 10-43 of a second after the Big Bang occured, but someone in the future might.

Eternal has no begining. the Big Bang is a begining. Again, you're logic is flawed. You're hatred of God's supremacy leads you to skip simple facts. You yourself said that just because something hasn't yet been explained, doesn't mean it won't. God's coming back, and whether or not you accept the Gift of salvation, your denial of the truth will be explained... as sin.

Psalm 118:8
 
Timothy said:
pasta911 said:
Let's say we take a look at a very short cause-and-effect path. Tree comes from seed. Seed comes from other tree. Other tree comes from the Earth. The Earth comes from the Universe. The Universe comes from God. Therefore, God is the initiator. What is wrong with this conclusion? It skips the Universe as a candidate for an initiator. Why can't the Universe be the uncaused cause? Why can't it simply be eternal? This is a much more logical conclusion than "God," because we know the Universe exists! Therefore, the Universe is the uncaused cause. It simply is, and has always been.

Then why do you claim the Universe is Eternal, yet you support the Big Bang?

Relativity and quantum physics cannot take us back to further than 10-43 of a second after the Big Bang occured, but someone in the future might.

Eternal has no begining. the Big Bang is a begining. Again, you're logic is flawed. You're hatred of God's supremacy leads you to skip simple facts. You yourself said that just because something hasn't yet been explained, doesn't mean it won't. God's coming back, and whether or not you accept the Gift of salvation, your denial of the truth will be explained... as sin.

Psalm 118:8

look the universe is complicated on its self... by adding god in you make it waaaay to complicated...

and time is just an invention of humans... How do you know there is no time out there? Im sure there inst a clock.. but its not all static...

and the big bang is just a theory... a better 1 that suddenly God appeared out of nowhere (that violates the same law that the big bang does) and created a universe with order... ( which we cant compare to any other universe so we dont know if this is "ordered")

Man adding a God that came out of nowhere makes it a million times more complicated.. and violates the same rules than the big bang
 
Punk-O-Rama said:
and the big bang is just a theory... a better 1 that suddenly God appeared out of nowhere (that violates the same law that the big bang does) and created a universe with order... ( which we cant compare to any other universe so we dont know if this is "ordered")

That's just it, you think God is something that "Just appeared from nowhere." You neglect the fact if God were all powerful as Christians view Him, then He may indeed be without a beginning. He can be timeless, because as you said time is a human idea. If God created humanity, He created time. Therefore, He would be above time.

As for the big bang, we all know that in order for this theory to work, a catalyst would have been needed to cause the reaction. God alone is the only one able to be such a catalyst. If God is all powerful as Christians claim Him to be, then He may have created the rules that govern the Universe. Therefore, God alone is powerful enough to cause a Big Bang, because he alone would be above the rules of the universe.

God doesn't complicate the Idea, He explains it. Christians accept this as truth through Faith. Those who deny this as truth, have nothing else to go with, so they'll just wait until another false theory like evolution comes along to explain the universe. All it takes is faith my friends. There is not one other theory that is a whole as God's Big Bang, and God's Creation.

(Now sit and wait for "God of Gaps" rebutal.)
 
Timothy said:
First, you're explaination of how the universe can be eternal provides for the existence of a timeless God. If God we're truly beyond the universe, his creation, then by your reasoning, that is perfectly logical to have a timeless God.
Not logical to have a god, just possible for there to be a god.

This is where you and I split paths. You would say that it's asking too much to believe in a "God of the Gaps" and I would say "It's quite easy to believe in a all sovereign God, when I place my trust in Him and His word, rather than the flawed ideas of men." It's called Faith, maybe you'll give it a try one day. 8-)
I did. but I lost my faith in Santa one day. At that point I realized I could believe in imaginary beings without needing proof. So I wanted proof for my belief in other magical beings. That included God and I started to loose faith.

Then why do you claim the Universe is Eternal, yet you support the Big Bang?
The problem is that "external" has no real meaning outside our universe. "Eternal" just means existing always (for all time). Since time was created at the Big Bang, the Universe is both eternal and has a starting point.

As for the big bang, we all know that in order for this theory to work, a catalyst would have been needed to cause the reaction. God alone is the only one able to be such a catalyst. If God is all powerful as Christians claim Him to be, then He may have created the rules that govern the Universe. Therefore, God alone is powerful enough to cause a Big Bang, because he alone would be above the rules of the universe.
If God can come into being without a cause, then the universe could come into being without a cause. The Big Bang is simplier because it is basically tightly bound spacetime and energy. However, God is organized thought and power, which seems less likely (but not impossible.)

Quath
 
Quath said:
Not logical to have a god, just possible for there to be a god.

Not just a possibility but one that can be concluded logically while following he facts.

I did. but I lost my faith in Santa one day. At that point I realized I could believe in imaginary beings without needing proof. So I wanted proof for my belief in other magical beings. That included God and I started to loose faith.

Quath, you know there is proof, you just don't want to accept the evidence as proof. I wish I knew why. That is why you've been in my prayers for quite some time.

The problem is that "external" has no real meaning outside our universe. "Eternal" just means existing always (for all time). Since time was created at the Big Bang, the Universe is both eternal and has a starting point.

This ignores the possibility for something existing before the Big Bang. If one says that the universe was created, that signals a begining. It does not rule out the existence of a precreational cause. To claim creation of something, makes the object litmited to a frame of time.

If God can come into being without a cause, then the universe could come into being without a cause. The Big Bang is simplier because it is basically tightly bound spacetime and energy. However, God is organized thought and power, which seems less likely (but not impossible.)

Quath

The logic is flawed. Let's work backwards step by step.

The universe is eternal.
The universe came into existence from a Big Bang.
The Big Bang just happened.

Now look at this scientifically. A bang implies an increase in energy, and requires that the 2nd law of Thermodynamics be ignored. This means that in order for a big bang to occur it would have to be beyond the very governing rules that were created at the start of the Universe. The only way to go beyond an all governing law is to be above the law to begin with. Hence, the something would logically be an intellegent soucre. A Bang implies no intellect, so how would it know to go beyond it's own laws?

You need intellect, you need God.

Now suppose that a God caused the bang. God would not be contradicting Himself if he created the laws by which the universe work. In addition. His eternality is not affected by governing laws, because he made them.

To say that the Big Bang is the eternal, is to say that the Big Bang is a contradiction.

Quath, the deeper you go, the more real God becomes. In the end, it take very little faith to see just how much God is needed.
 
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