"Lord God" (1:8)

[JM]

Quote: In 1:8 the title "god" must be added to the word "Lord," according to all the Critical Greek Texts* and the R.V.

* Griesbach, Lachmann, Tischendorf, Tregelles, Alford, Westcott and Hort. (yikes!)

In chap. 22:6 we have the same title. Thus at the end of the book and at the beginning we have this peculiar title, which seems to enclose all that the book contains, and stamp it all with that which the title signifies. What is signifies is clear from the place where we first find it, vix., in the second of the twelve divisions of Genesis (chap. 2:4 - 4:26). This division is called "the generations of the heavens and of the earth."
In the Apocalypse we have the final results of all that pertains to the heavens and the earth.

The title "Lord God" is the title used in this division, which treats of the settlement of man in Paradise, or garden of the Lord. In the New Testament it first appears in the Apocalypse; where it has reference to the undoing of the effects of the curse (describe in that section of Genesis), and to the making of the earth again into the Paradise* of God - the garden of the Lord.

* The word Paradise occurs in the New Testament three times. Luke 23:43, where the Lord spoke of it in promise and prophecy; in 2 Cor. 12:9, whither Paul was caught away; and in Rev. 2:7.

The title implies all this: viz., that God is about to do all that Jehovah has revealed. For Elohim is the God of creation and the commencement of life, while Jehovah is the God of revelation and the development and sustainer of life with regard to His covenant People. Elohim (God) expresses the power which accomplishes; Jehovah (Lord) the grace which provides.

Hence in Gen. 2:4 - 4:26, and in Rev. 1:8, and 22:5 we meet with this title; which links the two books together in a most remarkable manner, and gives the pledge that Paradise lost will become Paradise regained; and that the curse which drove man out shall no longer keep him out, but shall be "no more" for ever.
This use of the title "Lord God" thus assures us that He who made the promise of Gen. 3:15, that the Serpent's head should one day be crushed, will, in His own day (the Lord's day), finally crush the Serpent's head.

The fact that this title is never used in connection with the Church of God, affords us one more great and important proof of our proposition that [the] Church is not the subject of the Apocalypse, but that it has to do with the Jew and the Gentile.

 

[Vic C.]

Quote: In 1:8 the title "god" must be added to the word "Lord," according to all the Critical Greek Texts* and the R.V.

* Griesbach, Lachmann, Tischendorf, Tregelles, Alford, Westcott and Hort. (yikes!)...

Yikes is right! :o Critical text and Westcott and Hort in the same breath. :-?

Just be careful that you don't divide the Bible up into too many pieces. You may lose a piece or two along the way. ;-)

Didn't dispensationalism, pretribulationisn, etc. come into being about the same time as freethinking and the age of enlightenment? Spooky. :o :o

 

[JM]

Just be careful that you don't divide the Bible up into too many pieces. You may lose a piece or two along the way.

Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

From what I gather, no one said it would be easy.

Didn't dispensationalism, pretribulationisn, etc. come into being about the same time as freethinking and the age of enlightenment? Spooky.

What can I say Vic, these are recycled attacks (that I studied in the Reformed Church) and have been proven incorrect by far better believers then I. After reading your posts, I’m getting the impression you have a person bone to pick with dispensational theology. It should also be pointed out that you used a logical fallacy (guilt by association), when your own view on eschatology (pre-wrath) is yet an infant! Keep these words in mind, ‘if it’s Biblical, then it’s historical.’ This goes for the pretribulation or prewrath view, they are proven by the Word of God and not history. I know you’re a student of the Scriptures, I count you among the elect, a brother in Christ. But if you refer to history you can see how doctrine was defined. We see in the early Church fighting it out over the Christological doctrines, the Reformation was about justification, the 1800’s dealt with sanctification and now we are fighting it out over eschatology.

Quote:

Crude, but clear, schemes of ages and dispensations are found in ante-Nicene fathers such as Justin Martyr (110-165), Irenaeus (130-200), Tertullian (c. 160-220), Methodius (d. 311), and Victorinus of Petau (d. 304). Dispensationalist, Larry Crutchfield concluded that,
Regardless of the number of economies to which the Fathers held, the fact remains that they set forth what can only be considered a doctrine of ages and dispensations which foreshadows dispensationalism as it is held today. Their views were certainly less well defined and less sophisticated. But it is evident that the early Fathers viewed God’s dealings with His people in dispensational terms. . . . In every major area of importance in the early church one finds rudimentary features of dispensationalism that bear a striking resemblance to their contemporary offspring (" Ages and Dispensations,†398).

Crutchfield charted these Fathers' schemes in the following chart which I have reproduced in an abbreviated form.

Justin Enoch/ Abraham Moses Christ Millennium
Martyr Noah
Adam Noah Moses Christ Millennium
Irenaeus to
Noah Moses Christ Eternity
Tertullian Adam Noah Abraham Moses Christ Millennium

Dispensationalist, Charles Ryrie, has shown that for about 150 years prior to Darby, an increasing number of theologians were articulating dispensational schemes of Biblical history (Dispensationalism Today, 71-74). Pierre Poiret's scheme is seen in his six volume work, The Divine

Economy (1687) as follows:
I. Infancy- to the Deluge
II. Childhood- to Moses
III. Adolescence- to the prophets
IV. Youth- to the coming of Christ
V. Manhood- " some time after that"
VI. Old Age- " the time of man' s decay"
(V & VI are the church age)
VII. Renovation of all things- the millennium (Disp. Today, p. 71)

Note that Poiret stressed the ruin or decay of the church, a major theme in Darby' s thinking.

Isaac Watts (1674-1748), the famous theologian and hymn writer, also wrote about dispensations in a forty-page essay entitled " The Harmony of all the Religions which God ever Prescribed to Men and all his Dispensations towards them." His definition of dispensations is very close to modern statements.

Watts dispensational scheme is as follows:
I. The Dispensation of Innocency
II. Adam after the Fall
III. The Noahic Dispensation
IV. The Abrahamic Dispensation
V. The Mosaic Dispensation
VI. The Christian Dispensation (Disp. Today, p. 73).
End quote.

Which brings us to J. N. Darby.

(The following isn’t directed at you Vic.)

What I find spooky, is the fact that most Christians who claim to ‘study to shew thyself approved’ can’t answer these questions without looking them up:

1.What is the mystery?
2.By whom was it revealed unto us by the Scriptures?
3.Does it make a difference?

I also find it spooky when folks have a better view of the end times then they do based doctrines and there history.

Peace,

JM
PS> It should be noted, the early dispensationalists left the churches that embrased enlightenment thinking and directly influanced fundamental thought.

 

[Vic C.]

Hey, does me playing devil's advocate bother you? I will stop if it does.

Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

A sincere question... At the time Paul wrote this, which word of Truth was he talking about? The NT was still in the process of being written and compiled.

[quote:4d138] Didn't dispensationalism, pretribulationisn, etc. come into being about the same time as freethinking and the age of enlightenment? Spooky.

What can I say Vic, these are recycled attacks (that I studied in the Reformed Church) and have been proven incorrect by far better believers then I. After reading your posts, I’m getting the impression you have a person bone to pick with dispensational theology.[/quote:4d138]
No personal attacks were intended. To be honest though, I sometimes feel all this breaking up of the Bible into little pieces makes it that much harder for one to study and understand. Harder than it really is. My opinion of course.

It should also be pointed out that you used a logical fallacy (guilt by association), when your own view on eschatology (pre-wrath) is yet an infant! Keep these words in mind, ‘if it’s Biblical, then it’s historical.’

I run these thoughts through my head day and night. I agree with the PreWrath believers that it is new in name only; that is has been there in scripture the whole time. Do you recall Van Kampen's "index card" method of aligning scripture in it's proper chronological order? Man, I wish I had the time to do that myself.

I don't see PreTrib as Biblical, just as you have issues with PreWrath. I just can't find in Scripture the idea that we will be spared any Tribulation whatsoever, I see the opposite.

So we agree to disagree. That's not always a bad thing.

This goes for the pretribulation or prewrath view, they are proven by the Word of God and not history.

Agreed.

I know you’re a student of the Scriptures, I count you among the elect, a brother in Christ. But if you refer to history you can see how doctrine was defined. We see in the early Church fighting it out over the Christological doctrines, the Reformation was about justification, the 1800’s dealt with sanctification and now we are fighting it out over eschatology.

No, I don't see us as fighting.

My closing thoughts... Jesus died for my sins. I accept that and embrace it. I don't think it matters one hoot to God if I am Jewish, Chinese, Italian ( ;-) ), etc. I am grateful beyond words sometime that He would bless ME with His Grace. It also does not matter to me one bit if He takes me now, just prior to the GT, during the GT, after the GT, etc. A PreWrath rapture is not a disire of mine. I believe what I do based on how I understand Scripture. I could be right; I could be way off. It really doesn't matter at all, providing one's End Times view doesn't distract us from what's really important. It is enlightening to study though.

Matthew 14:29-30
29 And He said, Come! And going down from the boat, Peter walked on the waters to go to Jesus.
30 But seeing the wind strong, he was afraid, and beginning to sink, he cried out, saying, Lord, save me! (LITV)
:angel:

 

[JM]

A sincere question... At the time Paul wrote this, which word of Truth was he talking about? The NT was still in the process of being written and compiled.

Why would it matter 'when' Paul wrote those words...unless you divide the word? :D

No personal attacks were intended. To be honest though, I sometimes feel all this breaking up of the Bible into little pieces makes it that much harder for one to study and understand. Harder than it really is. My opinion of course.

I'd have to say dispey's identify the 'who, what, when, why, where and how.' As a Christian I see the Bible as for me, but not everything is written to me and that's the difference.

I don't see PreTrib as Biblical, just as you have issues with PreWrath. I just can't find in Scripture the idea that we will be spared any Tribulation whatsoever, I see the opposite.

PreTrib is more consistent with my presuppositions...that's all.

My closing thoughts... Jesus died for my sins. I accept that and embrace it. I don't think it matters one hoot to God if I am Jewish, Chinese, Italian ( ), etc. I am grateful beyond words sometime that He would bless ME with His Grace. It also does not matter to me one bit if He takes me now, just prior to the GT, during the GT, after the GT, etc. A PreWrath rapture is not a disire of mine. I believe what I do based on how I understand Scripture. I could be right; I could be way off. It really doesn't matter at all, providing one's End Times view doesn't distract us from what's really important. It is enlightening to study though.

Where did you read that Jesus died for your sins? (hint, hint: 1 Corinthians 15:3)

What else did Paul preach

:

The great doctrines that Paul reveals may be outlined as followsâ€â€

1. The unrighteousness before God of all men.

2. The impossibility of justification by works before Godâ€â€that is, of any man's attaining a standing of righteousness before God, by anything done by him. Do what a man may, he is a condemned sinner still.

3. The fact and the scripturalness of righteousness on the free gift principleâ€â€that is, of a Divine righteousness, separate from all man's doings, conferred upon man as a free gift from God.

4. Propitiation. That satisfaction of God's Holy nature and law for man's sins rendered by Christ's blood.

5. Reconciliation. The removal, by Christ's death for man, of that obstacle to righteousness which man's sin had set up between God and man.

6. The plan of the actual conferring of the gift of righteousness upon all who believe, without any distinction. This change of a sinner's standing before God, from one of condemnation to one of righteousness, is called Justification. Negatively, it is deliverance from guilt on account of Christ's shed blood, and deliverance out of the old creation, by identification in death with Christ on the Cross. Positively, it is a new standing in the risen Christ before God.

7. Redemption. The buying back of the soul through the blood of Christ from sin; from the curse of the lawâ€â€even death, involving exclusion from God, under penalty; from the "power of death," which involves the hand of the enemy; and from all iniquity.

8. Forgiveness. The going forth of Divine tenderness in remitting penalty for sin, in view of the blood of Christ trusted in; and in complacency and fellowship, to creatures who before were necessarily under Divine judgment.

9. Remission of sins. That is, the actual removing of transgressions or trespasses from the sinner, so that for all time and eternity his sins shall not again be upon him.

10. Identification (see above, Justification). The great fact that those who are in Christ were united with Him at the Cross, by God's sovereign inscrutable act; were crucified with Christ and buried with Him; so that their history is now ended before God; and when Christ was raised up as the First-born of the new creation, they also were raised up with Him, and their history began as new creatures in God's sight, in Christ, the Last Adam.
Of course, in the experience of the Christian, there comes a time when he is actually made partaker of this new lifeâ€â€that point of time when he is, as we say, saved, or converted, or born again, etc. Nevertheless, the life that is in every Christian came up out of the tomb, and it is in Christ Jesus that a man is created anew.

11. Incorporation. This tremendous doctrine Paul alone mentions, and he makes it practically the foundation of all his exhortations to the saints with regard to their conduct and life. By "incorporation" we mean the fact that all those who are really saved and are new creatures in Christ Jesus become members of one organism, which is more real than the very earth we tread upon, called "the Body of Christ"â€â€Christ Himself in heaven being the Head of this Body, and every real Christian a member of it. So that believers are thus members of Christ in heaven, and also members one of another here on earth. No wonder Paul is able to exhort the saints to love one another when they are members one of another! (Romans 12, 1 Corinthians 12 and Ephesians 4).

12. Inhabitation. The wonderful fact that the Body of Christ and each member of it individually is inhabited, indwelt, by the Holy Ghost Himself, and not only so, but that the Church is being "built together" as a great temple of God so that in the future God's actual eternal dwelling place will be this wonderful, mysterious company built into a building called "a holy habitation of God in the Spirit."
This mystery is a great and marvelous one, the fact that we are saved, are partakers now of the life of the Lord in glory, that the Holy Spirit indwells us.

13. Divine Exhibition. That is, that through the Church, in the ages to come, is to be made known that which God counts His "riches," even His Grace (Eph 2:7; 3:10).


Peace,

JM
Something to think about: Who was the first gentile convert and when did it take place?

 

[Vic C.]

... Where did you read that Jesus died for your sins? (hint, hint: 1 Corinthians 15:3)...

I actually started reading the Bible years ago starting with John then the rest of the Gospels but funny you should bring that up. I was just reading Matthew 26. I had just hilighted this verse because of something I read from Matthew McGee along the very same line of questioning.

Mat 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

God gave Paul information that no one knew before. It was a new gospel, which Paul calls the gospel of grace or my gospel. The gospel of grace is that Jesus Christ, the Son of God, freely gave His life as the perfect sacrifice to pay for our sins. He was crucified, was buried, and rose from the dead on the third day (1 Corinthians 15:1-4). Look at the early parts of Acts. You will never see the twelve apostles talking about Jesus Christ's redeeming blood or saying how He died for our sins.

Now why would he neglect to mention it was Jesus Himself who first revealed this?

Something to think about: Who was the first gentile convert and when did it take place?

This was being discussed in another thread somewhere. I know it was in Acts. It was a Roman guard, centurian, soldier. But it was in relation to Peter, not Paul, so I am not making the connection just yet. Don't have time to look it up right now. It's 6PM and I'm leaving work.

Peace.

 

[JM]

Correct, see Acts 10.

What did Jesus Christ reveal in Matt? We know, "For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator."

Wasn't Christ foretelling and not establishing....because His death had to come first? And what did the 12 understand about what our Lord told them? What did Peter preach? Look in Acts.

I'll stop here.

God bless.

JM

 

[wavy]

Historical proof from the "church fathers" only makes dispensationalism more of a falsehood in my eyes.

However, it depends on how one views the scripture. You can view it from the right mindset or from the wrong. And if you've presupposed something because you don't look at it from the right mindset, no doubt you can find some vague justification for dispensationalism and separate entity theology...

 

[JM]

Historical proof from the "church fathers" only makes dispensationalism more of a falsehood in my eyes.

However, it depends on how one views the scripture. You can view it from the right mindset or from the wrong. And if you've presupposed something because you don't look at it from the right mindset, no doubt you can find some vague justification for dispensationalism and separate entity theology...

I'll provide the link, it's up to you to read it...it's rather large and not vague at all...it will enlighten you, but you may not be up to.

Here's your proof: http://www.tyndale.edu/dirn/source/theology.html


Quote:

In order to evaluate the writings of the fathers for dispensational concepts, it is necessary to briefly set forth the main features of “classic†or “normative†dispensational theology as presented by men like C. I. Scofield, Lewis Sperry Chafer, and Ryrie. Perhaps the best recent definition of dispensationalism which incorporates the essential features of 1) the distinction between Israel and the church, 2) the hermeneutical principle of literal or normal interpretation, and 3) the purpose of God in history as the glorification of Himself, is that formulated by Robert P. Lightner. He defines dispensationalism, ". . . as that system of theology which interprets the Bible literallyâ€â€according to normal usageâ€â€and places primary emphasis on the major biblical covenantsâ€â€Abrahamic, Palestinian, Davidic, Newâ€â€and sees the Bible as the unfolding of distinguishable economies in the outworking of God’s major purpose to bring glory to Himself."

 

[wavy]

Why do you always throw links at me?

 

[JM]

Why do you always throw links at me?

I'm not smart enough to write and research what can be posted in links. Would you perfer I remain silent and offer nothing! :

Peace Wavy, I need a break...my thoughts are running together and after I re-read some of my posts, I see I've posted error...at least once.

Shalom!

 

[Terral]

If Quoting Bullinger, The Quote Bullinger. Shame, Shame.

Hi JM:

The hypothesis of your Opening Post (OP) is difficult to follow for the lack of adequate Scriptural references. For example:

JM >> Quote: In 1:8 the title "god" must be added to the word "Lord," according to all the Critical Greek Texts* and the R.V. * Griesbach, Lachmann, Tischendorf, Tregelles, Alford, Westcott and Hort. (yikes!)

What in the world is “1:8�?? The “Critical Text†(CT) is derived from the older Alexandrian (Egyptian) group of manuscripts, while the “Received Text†(TR) is gathered from the newer Antiochian group of manuscripts. The “Majority Text†(MT) combines all the known manuscripts into one group and uses the translation found in the majority of them.

JM >> In chap. 22:6 we have the same title.

Many books in the Bible contain 22 chapters and eventually you will let us in on which one you are talking about. My guess thus far is that you are referring to the Book of Revelation, as the TR omits “God,†but adds “Beginning and End.†The TR also reads “Jesus Christ†in Revelation 1:9, where the Critical Text reads only “Jesus.†Revelation 22:6 and the “Lord God†is a reference to the “His God and Father†(Revelation 1:6) of “Jesus Christ†(Revelation 1:1, Revelation 1:2, Revelation 1:5) the “Son of God†(Revelation 2:18).

You cannot run back to Genesis 2 and say the same thing about the “Lord God†who formed Adam from the dust of the ground. Jesus Christ is the “Lord God†of Genesis 2 and the “Lord†of Malachi 3:1 following the ‘messenger’ (Isaiah 40:3, Malachi 3:1) to His Temple. Jesus Christ is the “Lord of the Sabbath†(Matthew 12:8), which is a reference to the ‘seventh day’ that began in Genesis 2:1-4. Adam was formed by our Lord Jesus Christ, which made Him our “Eternal Father†of Isaiah 9:6. “His God and Father†(Revelation 1:6) is “Elohim†of Genesis 1 (God = John 1:1) who called everything into being (John 1:3) through His Word (John 1:2). The phrase “Lord God†is a title assumed by the Creator over a particular Realm containing specific boundaries. God’s Son (Jesus Christ) is given the power and authority to judge all things committed to this physical Adamic Universe (John 1:3), while “His God And Father†retains power and authority over all things in His Infinite Realm.

JM >> Thus at the end of the book and at the beginning we have this peculiar title, which seems to enclose all that the book contains, and stamp it all with that which the title signifies.

No sir; if things were only that simple . . . Your use of the phrase “seems to enclose†is the telltale sign that you do not know what you are talking about. Every word of Scripture MUST be interpreted in the correct Light and Context given from the Mouth of God to the members of the dispensation He is addressing. Your blanket method of interpreting Scripture says to toss those rules out the window to follow a haphazard system that follows no rules at all. If you recognized Jesus Christ as the “Lord God†of the Old Testament working as our “High Priest†consecrating the children of Adam and Eve through various dispensations, then you would NEVER try to confuse Him (Lord God = Genesis 2 = Lord = Malachi 3:1) with “His God and Father†(Revelation 1:6) of Revelation. Remember that the Father Himself is calling His Son “O God†in Hebrews 1:8 and that the Son is the “high priest, who has taken His seat at the “right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens.†Hebrews 8:1. Jesus Christ makes this clear in addressing the churches in Revelation while addressing the overcomers, saying,

“He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he will not go out from it anymore; and I will write on him the name of My God, and the name of the city of My God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God, and My new name.†Revelation 3:12.

“He who overcomes, I will grant to him to sit down with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.†Revelation 3:21.

Jesus Christ (Revelation 1:1, etc.) is the “Lord God†of Genesis 2 now addressing the overcomers from the ‘seed’ of Adam, Seth, Noah (Shem, Japheth, Ham) down to the faithful members of their generations called to “His God and Father†by His (High Priest) consecrating work of priestly service that has spanned the “seventh day†from Genesis 2:4 (sowing) to Revelation 20:15 (judgment). Christ will take His seat at the right hand of the “throne of the Majesty in the heavens†during the final day (1000 Years) of this seventh thousand year (Sabbath Day), as the “High Priest†of Hebrews 8:1, but will take His seat as “King†in the New Heaven and New Earth of Revelation 21:1 +. Therefore, the Lord God of Genesis 2 (Jesus Christ) is standing and working during this Sabbath Day (7000 years) Period, but His God and Father is seated upon His Throne at rest (Genesis 2:1-3).

JM >> What is signifies is clear from the place where we first find it, vix., in the second of the twelve divisions of Genesis (chap. 2:4 - 4:26). This division is called "the generations of the heavens and of the earth."

Very Good. However, you are standing (Genesis 2:4) upon the threshold of the ‘erets shift’ of Genesis where the ‘erets’ of Genesis 1 was the entire universe. The “Lord God†(Jesus Christ) is now (Genesis 2:4 +) dealing exclusively with Adam (His son; Luke 3:38) and the “Land†(erets) of the Garden (Genesis 2:7 + Genesis 2:8). The ‘earth’ (Land) part of this ‘Garden’ shall become the Promised Land (Genesis 15:18) given to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob AND become the same “Land†of the restored Kingdom to Israel (Ezekiel 47 + Ezekiel 48). These ‘generations’ (Genesis 2:4) are referring to the descendants of the righteous branch (Shem – Noah (Shem, Japheth, Ham) – Abraham, Isaac and Jacob) AND the children of disobedience (Cain and his seed).

The sixth day races (Genesis 1:26-28) represent the beardless races that have been on this earth for thousands and thousands of years prior to Adam’s ‘incarnation’ in Genesis 2:7. In other words, when Columbus arrived in the New World, he was descended from Japheth who was ‘enlarging’ (Genesis 9:27). The native inhabitants of the land (we now call “Indiansâ€Â) were counted among the sixth day races of Genesis 1:26-28. The aborigine peoples of Australia represent the indigenous counterparts to the American Indians of the New World who have been drawing their cave paintings for tens of thousands of years. Genesis narrows the Lord God’s field of view down to the sons of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob as His chosen people to inherit the same ‘Land’ (erets) of Genesis 15:18.

JM >> In the Apocalypse we have the final results of all that pertains to the heavens and the earth.

No sir. “His God and Father†(Revelation 1:6) will again begin His creative work (like in Genesis 1), after the final judgment of Revelation 20:11-15 in the new day (age) that begins in Revelation 21:1 +. This seventh day (Genesis 2:4-Revelation 20:15) will at that time be over and the evil forces of this darkness (Ephesians 6:12) will already have passed away (1 Corinthians 2:6-8 (6), 1 Corinthians 7:31). You are confusing the priestly work of Our Lord Jesus Christ (Lord God = Genesis 2:4 +) consecrating the righteous branch with His God and Father transforming the entire universe into a more glorious state in Revelation 21. The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ will remake this creation time and time again throughout the ‘ages to come’ (Ephesians 2:7), which is a much larger scale to anything Christ is doing upon the “Land†(erets) of the Garden, Promised Land, Restored Kingdom of Israel in the Middle East of this single planet.

JM >> The title "Lord God" is the title used in this division, which treats of the settlement of man in Paradise, or garden of the Lord. In the New Testament it first appears in the Apocalypse; where it has reference to the undoing of the effects of the curse (describe in that section of Genesis), and to the making of the earth again into the Paradise* of God - the garden of the Lord.

Very Good. The difference is that Jesus Christ (Lord God = Genesis 2) is working on the Land (erets) of the Garden, where His God and Father (Lord God = Revelation) is recreating the entire seen and unseen universe in Revelation 21:1 +.

JM >> * The word Paradise occurs in the New Testament three times. Luke 23:43, where the Lord spoke of it in promise and prophecy; in 2 Cor. 12:9, whither Paul was caught away; and in Rev. 2:7.

Christ is talking about the ‘water’ witness side of “Sheol†inside the earth in Luke 23, which is another topic entirely from where Paul ascended in 2 Corinthians 12. Paul was caught up to the heavenly equivalent to the ‘Garden of Eden’ on this earth, or the heavenly counterpart to the Promised Land and the restored Kingdom of Israel on the earth. If you go back to Genesis 2:4, then you will see a ‘heavenly’ part AND an ‘earthly’ equivalent part. The ‘earthly’ (water) part is found in the Middle East between the river of Egypt and the Euphrates River (Genesis 15:18), but the ‘heavenly’ (spirit) counterpart is where Paul was ‘caught up’ in 2 Corinthians 12. The ‘Paradise of God’ (Revelation 2:7) has yet to be called into existence, as that comes into being with the new creation of Revelation 21:1 +. That even higher realm is the heavenly counterpart to where Paul was caught up within this creation.

From the bottom left: David is seated upon his throne (Ezekiel 37:24-28) on this earth (Lord’s footstool = Isaiah 66:1) and in the restored kingdom (Promised Land) of the visible Garden of Eden. The angels on the opposite side of “Christ’s Mystery†(Ephesians 3:4, Colossians 4:3 – “Mystery of Christâ€Â) represent the angelic counterparts to these earthly hosts descended from Adam (Genesis 2:7). Paul was caught up to the “kingdom of Heaven†in the lower “Adamic Realm,†which is where John sees the Lamb in the ‘center of the throne’ (Revelation 7:17) with those standing ‘before the throne’ (Revelation 7:15 = body of Moses) on the ‘sea of glass’ (Revelation 4:6, Revelation 15:2). David is the earthly prince and king over the visible realm of this earth, while the Lamb (Christ) sits upon His Throne in New Jerusalem above in heaven; again in THIS Creation. However, “God’s Mystery†(Colossians 2:2) is “Christ Himself,†as the “Realm of the Word†above represents “Heaven†(Genesis 1:1) to this entire visible and invisible creation. The “Lord God†of Revelation is “God To Come, God Who Is and God Who Was†from Revelation 1:8 seated in the “Highest Heaven†“IN†His Only Begotten Son. These three thrones of “God Who Is†(spirit), the “Lamb†(blood) and “David†(water) are all becoming “ONE†throughout the ‘ages to come,’ as God reconstitutes this broken creation into a more glorious version of its previous perfect (Genesis 1:1) state.

All of the water witnesses and spirit witnesses shall be summed up (Ephesians 1:9-10) into the red ‘blood’ witness by the time God becomes “all in all†(1 Corinthians 15:28), which includes everyone being included in the Paradise of God in the Highest Heaven of the diagram above. Of course, Satan and his evil seed are being removed and cast into the lake of fire (Revelation 21:8) throughout these summing up processes, which gives God a perfect result by the time He becomes ‘all in all.’ Therefore, there is a ‘paradise’ IN the earth AND one upon this earth (Garden, Promised Land, Kingdom) and above in heaven where the Lamb is taking His throne AND one in the highest heaven where God is seated IN His Son. Each is represented by a triune tabernacle with the central (blood) witness spreading that over the water and spirit witnesses to make them WHOLE again, as everything in this creation was severed in two (creating water and spirit witness) during the Satanic Rebellion.

JM >> The title implies all this: viz., that God is about to do all that Jehovah has revealed. For Elohim is the God of creation and the commencement of life, while Jehovah is the God of revelation and the development and sustainer of life with regard to His covenant People. Elohim (God) expresses the power which accomplishes; Jehovah (Lord) the grace which provides.

Baaaaa! You are quoting from the commentary of Bullinger on this topic found here: http://www.levendwater.org/boeken/revel ... ntro_5.htm . That is why your (Bullinger’s) commentary above is cut off and lacks proper reference and commentary. He set up his own statements in the commentary above, but you failed to include that as part of your thread. Shame, shame . . .

JM Quoting Bullinger ( http://www.levendwater.org/boeken/revel ... ntro_5.htm )>> Hence in Gen. 2:4 - 4:26, and in Rev. 1:8, and 22:5 we meet with this title; which links the two books together in a most remarkable manner, and gives the pledge that Paradise lost will become Paradise regained; and that the curse which drove man out shall no longer keep him out, but shall be "no more" for ever. This use of the title "Lord God" thus assures us that He who made the promise of Gen. 3:15, that the Serpent's head should one day be crushed, will, in His own day (the Lord's day), finally crush the Serpent's head.

Much of Bullinger’s work is very good, but his vision of the fulfillment of ‘end time’ prophecy will let you down. Your interpretations of Scripture should be based upon what is written in your Bible and not from the commentary of any third party. After all, Bullinger is not here to defend his own errant interpretations. You should always provide the source of your third party commentary by also pasting the Link, so that we can view the entire work as a whole. This kind of ‘cut and paste’ theology is disingenuous and reflects badly on the other members to this Board. Third party readers see this kind of flimsy and careless “cutting and pasting†and run away to seek sanctuary elsewhere in a more closely monitored and policed environment where the members are held accountable for pasting ‘their own’ commentary to the threads.

JM Quoting Bullinger >> The fact that this title is never used in connection with the Church of God, affords us one more great and important proof of our proposition that [the] Church is not the subject of the Apocalypse, but that it has to do with the Jew and the Gentile.

Where is the source of these additions “[the]†to Bullinger’s work? His error is made in the assumption that there is only one New Testament Church. How can ‘the church’ not be the subject of Revelation, when Christ is addressing them in Revelation 1-3? If he is trying to say that our ‘mystery’ church (Ephesians 5:32, Colossians 1:24) is not the topic of Revelation, then that would be more accurate, but he did not qualify his statement. He also fails to mention that our mystery church is found “IN†the Lamb Himself as the members of “His Body†(Colossians 1:24 = Christ’s body = 1 Corinthians 12:27). The Prophets cannot see us, because we are “IN†the Lamb judging the world and the angels (1 Corinthians 6:2-3), so that where “we†are “they†can be also. That is how God is summing up all things in the heavens (angels) and earth (men = world) “IN†Christ (Ephesians 1:9-10), while subjecting all things to His Son (1 Corinthians 15:27) in the first place. God is giving us (body of Christ = Ephesians 4:12) a position “IN†Christ Jesus (Ephesians 2:6) for the ‘ages to come’ (Ephesians 2:7), so that everyone else can obtain the same ‘gift of God’ (Ephesians 2:8) we gained, but by their own works (James 2:24). The heavenly authorities (Ephesians 3:10) will watch how God deals with ‘us’ through His Grace AND how He deals with those coming by works MUCH differently. That is where the ‘jealousy’ (Deuteronomy 32:21, Romans 10:19) will kick into full gear.

Hopefully we do not find a pattern of this pasting of third party commentary in your other Opening Posts, apart from giving them credit.

In Christ Jesus,

Terral