Bible Study Loved and Saved before born or born again

[beloved57]

rom 9:

11(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth

12It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. 13As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

Jer 1:

4Then the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
5Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.


One of great blessings of election is that, the elect are Loved by God and Saved by Him by His purpose and grace, given them in christ Jesus christ before the world began..

2 tim 1:

9Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,


Its because of this eternal purpose of election, that a person is ensured life and glory through Jesus christ our Lord..

The eternal purpose of election does not necessitate the elects actual being in time to be true of them being heirs of grace..This is the points of my text in 9:11-13 and jer 1:5..

This is because God who is omniscence and Eternal knows them who are His in the election of grace..

ps 139:

14I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well.

15My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.
16Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them.
17How precious also are thy thoughts unto me, O God! how great is the sum of them! 18If I should count them, they are more in number than the sand: when I awake, I am still with thee.

This passage in the psalms gives us to know how well God knows His beloved elect ones, even before they are born..vs 16 and in thy book all my members were written, this alludes to, Jesus christ as the head of the elect, and all his members, his body, being written in the lambs book of life, from the foundation..

These members, whom are intimitaly known by God, are in time called by Gods grace of election..

hear pauls testimony..about the call of grace gal 1:

15But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace,
16To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:

This calling of grace is centered in and resultive of the eternal purpose of God and grace given to us in christ before the world began 2 tim 1 9

When paul address his readers as the called, this is what he is referring to, those who are called by God in virtue of the eternal purpose of God in christ..

1 cor 1:

2Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their's and our's:

24But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.


rom 9:

23And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

8:

28And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

to them [ not all of humanity] who are the called according to his purpose..again, this purpose is eternal and centered in Gods election and choosing some [ not all] in christ before the world began and predestinating them unto conformity to the image of Jesus christ..eph 1:

3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

4According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

So it is with Gods eternal purpose of election in view, the call of the gospel of grace goes forth..

again, those who are called are already saved by Gods eternal purpose..notice how paul uses called and saved interchangabely in 1 cor 1:

18For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

ok here the contrast is in regard to two types that hear the gospel, one type to them that perish [the non elect] and unto us [the elect] which are saved..

now , still referring to preaching, he says in vs23-24

23But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
24But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

here the contrast is between the the non elect of the jews and greeks, in which the message of the cross is either a stumbling block or foolishness, contrasted with them which are called..the message is the power of God and the wisdom of God..

So we see in the same immediate passage of context, how that the saved and the called are the same....

This being called in time is because of being saved in the eternal purpose before time began..and if saved in the eternal purpose of election, then saved before time began..and guareenteed to be called in time..

Thats why its heresy to preach and teach that faith and repentance, both in time graces given to the called or chosen are conditions or requirements to get saved..This overthrows, the grace which was given the elect in christ according to Gods purpose before the world began..for this reason, the elect are Loved and saved before they are born and born again..Thanks be to God for His unspeakable Gift, which is christ Jesus our Lord..

rom 8:

31What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
32He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

 

[Drew]

rom 9:

11(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth

12It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. 13As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

It could not possibly be more clear that, in the reference to them in Romans 9, the eternal status of Jacob and Esau is nowhere on Paul's mind. The following text does not even address the issue of eternal destinies of Jacob or Esau. Paul tells us what they are "elected to" - that one will serve the other. Why people think that they need to correct Paul on this is indeed a great mystery.

Let's look at the text:

Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or badâ€â€in order that God's purpose in election might stand: 12not by works but by him who callsâ€â€she was told, "The older will serve the younger." 13Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.

Imagine Paul sitting there with his scribe, having just dictated "in order that God's purpose in election might stand". Where does this statement leave the reader? Obviously, it leaves the reader asking "Well, what is that purpose? What is God "choosing" or "selecting" Jacob and Esau for, exactly?"

So Paul answers this question. He says that the election was not based on "works" (the works of Torah) but rather on the specific calling of God. And then Paul tells us what God has "called" or chosen or "elected" Jacob and Esau for.

They were chosen / selected / elected to a state where "the older will serve the younger". Eternal destiny is nowhere in sight.

If Paul is addressing selection or election to eternal life or eternal loss, you have to believe that, after raising the topic of God’s purpose in election, Paul has suffered a sudden bout of amnesia and makes an entirely unannounced and immediate transition to a different subject altogether - the issue of something else that God selected these two for. That is, one serving the other.

What kind of a writer would do that ? First, state that God has one purpose in selection (election) for two people, and then spell out the details of an entirely different election?

Paul is not whacked in the head. He raises the question of election and then tells us immediately what the election is about. And, of course, it has nothing whatsoever to do with eternal life.

It is simply that Esau has been elected to serve Jacob. And this is a veiled reference to the relationship between their respective peoples - the Edomites and the Israelites.

But you need take my word for it. Just read Paul's own words and take them seriously.

 

[Drew]

Jer 1:

4Then the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
5Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

How is this evidence that all people who wind up justified are pre-destined to such a status? Why do we not take this text as it plainly reads - that Jeremiah was pre-destined to be a prophet to all nations. On what basis do you generalize from the "Jeremiah-specificity" of this text?

 

[beloved57]

It could not possibly be more clear that, in the reference to them in Romans 9, the eternal status of Jacob and Esau is nowhere on Paul's mind.

Then you dont believe the same paul who wrote rom 9 wrote 2 tim 1 9

9Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

 

[beloved57]

Why do we not take this text as it plainly reads - that Jeremiah was pre-destined to be a prophet to all nations

so are the elect eph 2:

10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
eph 4:

10He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

11And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

 

[Drew]

It could not possibly be more clear that, in the reference to them in Romans 9, the eternal status of Jacob and Esau is nowhere on Paul's mind.

Then you dont believe the same paul who wrote rom 9 wrote 2 tim 1 9

9Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Let's assume, for the sake of argument, that the 2 Timothy text indeed supports the election of individuals to eternal life. I do not believe that it does, but let's put that aside.

The fact that Paul may be talking about pre-destination of individuals in the 2 Tim text this does not mean that every use of the word "election" in relation to individuals has to be about the eternal destinies of those individuals.

Let's say that Paul wanted to make a statement about the election of some guy "Fred" to some office in Jerusalem - say chief of police.

Could Paul not write "Fred was elected to be chief of police" without saying something about Fred's ultimate destiny after death?

Paul is clear in Romans 9: He is talking about the election of one to serve to the other. What he says in other letters does not change this.

 

[Drew]

Why do we not take this text as it plainly reads - that Jeremiah was pre-destined to be a prophet to all nations

so are the elect eph 2:

10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
eph 4:

10He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

11And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

Again, what other texts might say in relation to pre-destination does not change the Jeremiah-specificity of the Jeremiah text.

All the Jeremiah text says is that Jeremiah was "elected". You cannot read more into the text than is there.

Likewise, Romans 9 tells us what Jacob and Esau were elected to - that one should serve the other. You cannot decide that Paul was mistaken and that he really should have said they were elected to something else.

 

[beloved57]

Again, what other texts might say in relation to pre-destination does not change the Jeremiah-specificity of the Jeremiah text.

I already showed you a spiritual comparison..thats how God reveals truth 1 cor 2:

13Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

You reject the comparison I provided from other scripture..

 

[beloved57]

Paul is clear in Romans 9: He is talking about the election of one to serve to the other. What he says in other letters does not change this.

paul in romans 9 is speaking about individual election rom 9:

11(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)

12It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.

13As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

14What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

jacob and easu are individuals..one was elected to salvation and mercy..and the other was not..

Thats why paul anticipates the response of , God being unrighteous..because He shows discriminate choice over some individuals for salvation and not to others..

You are just denying scripture and its teachings..

 

[Drew]

Paul is clear in Romans 9: He is talking about the election of one to serve to the other. What he says in other letters does not change this.

paul in romans 9 is speaking about individual election rom 9:

11(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)

12It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.

13As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

14What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

jacob and easu are individuals..one was elected to salvation and mercy..and the other was not..

You are reading something into the Jacob and Esau text that is simply not there. Not only that, in so doing, you over-rule Paul who tells us what the "election" is about - it is about an election of one to serve the other. And this is not election to eternal destinies.

Nowhere in the Jacob and Esua account is there any indication that the thing they are being "elected" to is salvation (Jacob) or loss (Esau). I challenge you to provide any text from this chapter that shows that it is specifically "heaven and hell" that these guys are being elected to.

Remember, the mere presence of the word "election" does not mean that Paul has to be addressing election to eternal destinies. The word election more generally connotes "choice" or "selection". When we "elect" a President, are we electing him to eternal life? Of course not.

Thats why paul anticipates the response of , God being unrighteous..because He shows discriminate choice over some individuals for salvation and not to others..

Circular argument. You assume, and in so doing you over-rule Paul, that the divine choice at issue is a choice in respect to eternal destinies. But Paul tells us what God has elected these guys to here - one serving the other. And the argument Paul makes about God's righteousness makes perfect sence in the context of what Paul really says that Jacob and Esau are elected to.

You are just denying scripture and its teachings..

I am only agreeing with Paul. It is you who disagree with Paul when you effectively say "Even though Paul tells us what Jacob and Esau are being elected to - one serving the other - I (Beloved57) know that Paul really meant to say that one is elected to heaven and the other to hell."

 

[beloved57]

You are reading something into the Jacob and Esau text that is simply not there

You are denying the truth that is presented there..

 

[3rddayuprising]

You are reading something into the Jacob and Esau text that is simply not there

You are denying the truth that is presented there..

Hey, this is great! Finally a Forum with some "meat" in it!

But, I have to agree with beloved57 on this one. Possibly some more depth of foundation would help others who struggle with "predestination". Read Matthew 13:24-49 and you will see Jesus take this all the way back to the planting of two different seeds. Esau and Jacob weren't the first two where God chose one and rejected the other. Abel and Cain were actually the first.

In Matthew 13 you will even see that the "whosoever wills" (the "gathering of every kind" verse 48) were brought into the "net" and then the bad were separated from the good. Don't forget, this is Jesus teaching on the foundational principles of God's Kingdom.

Even in the light of John 3:16 "God so loved the world...that WHOSOEVER believeth in Him..." Well, this is explained in Matthew 13 where we see that to buy "the treasure hid in the field" (verse 44) Jesus shed His blood and bought "the field". Verse 38 says that the FIELD is "the world". So having bought the field (where the two different seeds are planted) He has the legal right to do whatever needs to be done with both seeds. (He owns the field and everything in it.) The one is gathered to be burned, the other is brought into the Father's barn. (Verse 30)

As our brother beloved57 has shared, this is consistant with Romans 9 where it says that "So then it is not of him that wills, nor of him that runneth, but of God that showeth mercy." Whosoever wills MAY COME, but that doesn't mean they are chosen and saved. Esau also came with his own version of worship BUT WAS REJECTED.

Many came to Jesus and followed Him for various reasons, but Jesus rebuked and exposed them for their selfish and carnal motives. (John 6:26) And then further says in John 6:44,65 that "no man can come to Me (Jesus) except the Father draw Him" and "except it were GIVEN HIM to come of My Father".

The Scripture also says in Acts that there were those who were "ordained to Eternal life" and also "there were added to the church such as SHOULD be saved". (Acts 13:48 & 2:47)

 

[Drew]

But, I have to agree with beloved57 on this one. Possibly some more depth of foundation would help others who struggle with "predestination". Read Matthew 13:24-49 and you will see Jesus take this all the way back to the planting of two different seeds. Esau and Jacob weren't the first two where God chose one and rejected the other. Abel and Cain were actually the first.

Welcome to the board.

The problem with your position is that you are denying what Paul is saying in Romans 9. He tells us what the election is about in regard to Esau and Jacob. And eternal destination is not on the table. What they are elected to is that one will serve the other. Paul says so explicitly "one will serve the other". Why do you think Paul does not mean what he says?

 

[beloved57]

But, I have to agree with beloved57 on this one. Possibly some more depth of foundation would help others who struggle with "predestination". Read Matthew 13:24-49 and you will see Jesus take this all the way back to the planting of two different seeds. Esau and Jacob weren't the first two where God chose one and rejected the other. Abel and Cain were actually the first.

Welcome to the board.

The problem with your position is that you are denying what Paul is saying in Romans 9. He tells us what the election is about in regard to Esau and Jacob. And eternal destination is not on the table. What they are elected to is that one will serve the other. Paul says so explicitly "one will serve the other". Why do you think Paul does not mean what he says?

paul is talking about individual election, you reject the truth and twist it..rom 9:

10And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;

11(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)

12It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.

13As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

Paul is teaching that individual election is Sovereign and discrimnatory..this is a gospel truth..

 

[beloved57]

You are reading something into the Jacob and Esau text that is simply not there

You are denying the truth that is presented there..

Hey, this is great! Finally a Forum with some "meat" in it!

But, I have to agree with beloved57 on this one. Possibly some more depth of foundation would help others who struggle with "predestination". Read Matthew 13:24-49 and you will see Jesus take this all the way back to the planting of two different seeds. Esau and Jacob weren't the first two where God chose one and rejected the other. Abel and Cain were actually the first.

In Matthew 13 you will even see that the "whosoever wills" (the "gathering of every kind" verse 48) were brought into the "net" and then the bad were separated from the good. Don't forget, this is Jesus teaching on the foundational principles of God's Kingdom.

Even in the light of John 3:16 "God so loved the world...that WHOSOEVER believeth in Him..." Well, this is explained in Matthew 13 where we see that to buy "the treasure hid in the field" (verse 44) Jesus shed His blood and bought "the field". Verse 38 says that the FIELD is "the world". So having bought the field (where the two different seeds are planted) He has the legal right to do whatever needs to be done with both seeds. (He owns the field and everything in it.) The one is gathered to be burned, the other is brought into the Father's barn. (Verse 30)

As our brother beloved57 has shared, this is consistant with Romans 9 where it says that "So then it is not of him that wills, nor of him that runneth, but of God that showeth mercy." Whosoever wills MAY COME, but that doesn't mean they are chosen and saved. Esau also came with his own version of worship BUT WAS REJECTED.

Many came to Jesus and followed Him for various reasons, but Jesus rebuked and exposed them for their selfish and carnal motives. (John 6:26) And then further says in John 6:44,65 that "no man can come to Me (Jesus) except the Father draw Him" and "except it were GIVEN HIM to come of My Father".

The Scripture also says in Acts that there were those who were "ordained to Eternal life" and also "there were added to the church such as SHOULD be saved". (Acts 13:48 & 2:47)

Thanks for the post..good contribution finally..

 

[3rddayuprising]

But, I have to agree with beloved57 on this one. Possibly some more depth of foundation would help others who struggle with "predestination". Read Matthew 13:24-49 and you will see Jesus take this all the way back to the planting of two different seeds. Esau and Jacob weren't the first two where God chose one and rejected the other. Abel and Cain were actually the first.

Welcome to the board.

The problem with your position is that you are denying what Paul is saying in Romans 9. He tells us what the election is about in regard to Esau and Jacob. And eternal destination is not on the table. What they are elected to is that one will serve the other. Paul says so explicitly "one will serve the other". Why do you think Paul does not mean what he says?

First of all, thanks beloved57. The encouragement is very much appreciated.

Brother Drew, I shared a lot of Scripture in my last post, I'm surprised that this is all you got out of it. First of all, I do not deny what Paul says. In fact, I quote him. Secondly, I DO believe Paul means what he says...That is WHY I quote him.

And allow me to quote him further: Let's keep our focus on the context of Paul's teaching. In Verse 8 of Romans 9 he says, "That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed."

So, Paul is specifically talking about who ARE the children of God, and who are NOT. The rest of his dissertation further qualifies this truth. The main emphesis of what Paul is talking about is "the purpose of God". How it is determined who are chosen for Glory and who are not. In verses 21 to 24 it goes on to say that God has the right to foreordain some "fitted" to destruction and "afore prepare" some to Glory. These are concluding statements to Paul's teaching.

Another concluding statement was in verse 16, "SO THEN, (in other words, I am concluding with this) it is not of him that wills, nor of him that runneth, but of God that showeth mercy." This is NOT refering to who serves who, but to WHO ARE ELECTED AS GOD'S PEOPLE and who are NOT. Esua was not.

If you read Malachi 1:1-4 (where Paul was quoting from) you will see that Esau and his lineage (Edom) are a rejected people..."the border of wickedness, and, The people against whom the Lord hath indignation forever." So, they are NOT heirs together.

In Genesis 25 we even see Esau selling his birthright. He sold out for a mess of pottage. Here we have a foreshadowing of the many religious church-goers of our day claiming to be Christian, but will sell out and compromise the Truth if it means financial loss, persecution or too much of a separation from the majority. These are the ones who "came" but had no real "root' in God. So fell away.

In Galations chapter 5 we see the difference between two different seeds again...Isaac and Ishmael. One is born of the flesh (Ishmael)...who was born by Abraham (Abram, actually) trying to do God a favour by being with Agar. And the other, Isaac, being born of the promise. The one whom God SAID would come through Sarah. Then in verse 30 it says that they "SHALL NOT BE HEIRS TOGETHER", further solidifying God's purpose according to ELECTION.

Another concluding statement in Romans 9 is in verse 18, "Therefore hath He mercy on whom He will have mercy, and whom He will He hardeneth." This has nothing to do with one person serving another, but clearly that of who are chosen to glory and who are not...is sovereignly in God's hands and who He has PREDESTINATED from the foundation of the world. Those whom He has BEFORE prepared unto glory.

So, please brother, do not take the statement of least emphesis and change the whole context of what Paul is truly emphesizing...which is salvation "not of works, but of Him that calleth." (verse 11)

 

[beloved57]

But, I have to agree with beloved57 on this one. Possibly some more depth of foundation would help others who struggle with "predestination". Read Matthew 13:24-49 and you will see Jesus take this all the way back to the planting of two different seeds. Esau and Jacob weren't the first two where God chose one and rejected the other. Abel and Cain were actually the first.

Welcome to the board.

The problem with your position is that you are denying what Paul is saying in Romans 9. He tells us what the election is about in regard to Esau and Jacob. And eternal destination is not on the table. What they are elected to is that one will serve the other. Paul says so explicitly "one will serve the other". Why do you think Paul does not mean what he says?

First of all, thanks beloved57. The encouragement is very much appreciated.

Brother Drew, I shared a lot of Scripture in my last post, I'm surprised that this is all you got out of it. First of all, I do not deny what Paul says. In fact, I quote him. Secondly, I DO believe Paul means what he says...That is WHY I quote him.

And allow me to quote him further: Let's keep our focus on the context of Paul's teaching. In Verse 8 of Romans 9 he says, "That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed."

So, Paul is specifically talking about who ARE the children of God, and who are NOT. The rest of his dissertation furhter qualifies this truth. The main emphesis of what Paul is talking about is "the purpose of God". How it is determined who are chosen for Glory and who are not. In verses 21 to 24 it goes on to say that God has the right to foreordain some "fitted" to destruction and "afore prepare" some to Glory. These are concluding statements to Paul's teaching.

Another concluding statement was in verse 16, "SO THEN, (in other words, I am concluding with this) it is not of him that wills, nor of him that runneth, but of God that showeth mercy." This is NOT refering to who serves who, but to WHO ARE ELECTED AS GOD'S PEOPLE and who are NOT. Esua was not.

If you read Malachi 1:1-4 (where Paul was quoting from) you will see that Esau and his lineage (Edom) are a rejected people..."the border of wickedness, and, The people against whom the Lord hath indignation forever." So, they are NOT heirs together.

In Genesis 25 we even see Esau selling his birthright. He sold out for a mess of pottage. Here we have a foreshadowing of the many religious church-goers of our day claiming to be Christian, but will sell out and compromise the Truth if it means financial loss, persecution or too much of a separation from the majority. These are the ones who "came" but had no real "root' in God. So fell away.

In Galations chapter 5 we see the difference between two different seeds again...Isaac and Ishmael. One is born of the flesh (Ishmael)...who was born by Abraham (Abram, actually) trying to do God a favour by being with Agar. And the other, Isaac, being born of the promise. The one whom God SAID would come through Sarah. Then in verse 30 it says that they "SHALL NOT BE HEIRS TOGETHER", further solidifying God's purpose according to ELECTION.

Another concluding statement in Romans 9 is in verse 18, "Therefore hath He mercy on whom He will have mercy, and whom He will He hardeneth." This has nothing to do with one person serving another, but clearly that of who are chosen to glory and who are not...is sovereignly in God's hands and who He has PREDESTINATED from the foundation of the world. Those whom He has BEFORE prepared unto glory.

So, please brother, do not take the statement of least emphesis and change the whole context of what Paul is truly emphesizing...which is salvation "not of works, but of Him that calleth." (verse 11)

My friend, he doesnt believe the truth..forget about it..but what you posted is good to me..its truth..

 

[3rddayuprising]

Brother Drew, I shared a lot of Scripture in my last post, I'm surprised that this is all you got out of it. First of all, I do not deny what Paul says. In fact, I quote him. Secondly, I DO believe Paul means what he says...That is WHY I quote him.

And allow me to quote him further: Let's keep our focus on the context of Paul's teaching. In Verse 8 of Romans 9 he says, "That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed."

So, Paul is specifically talking about who ARE the children of God, and who are NOT. The rest of his dissertation furhter qualifies this truth. The main emphesis of what Paul is talking about is "the purpose of God". How it is determined who are chosen for Glory and who are not. In verses 21 to 24 it goes on to say that God has the right to foreordain some "fitted" to destruction and "afore prepare" some to Glory. These are concluding statements to Paul's teaching.

Another concluding statement was in verse 16, "SO THEN, (in other words, I am concluding with this) it is not of him that wills, nor of him that runneth, but of God that showeth mercy." This is NOT refering to who serves who, but to WHO ARE ELECTED AS GOD'S PEOPLE and who are NOT. Esua was not.

If you read Malachi 1:1-4 (where Paul was quoting from) you will see that Esau and his lineage (Edom) are a rejected people..."the border of wickedness, and, The people against whom the Lord hath indignation forever." So, they are NOT heirs together.

In Genesis 25 we even see Esau selling his birthright. He sold out for a mess of pottage. Here we have a foreshadowing of the many religious church-goers of our day claiming to be Christian, but will sell out and compromise the Truth if it means financial loss, persecution or too much of a separation from the majority. These are the ones who "came" but had no real "root' in God. So fell away.

In Galations chapter 5 we see the difference between two different seeds again...Isaac and Ishmael. One is born of the flesh (Ishmael)...who was born by Abraham (Abram, actually) trying to do God a favour by being with Agar. And the other, Isaac, being born of the promise. The one whom God SAID would come through Sarah. Then in verse 30 it says that they "SHALL NOT BE HEIRS TOGETHER", further solidifying God's purpose according to ELECTION.

Another concluding statement in Romans 9 is in verse 18, "Therefore hath He mercy on whom He will have mercy, and whom He will He hardeneth." This has nothing to do with one person serving another, but clearly that of who are chosen to glory and who are not...is sovereignly in God's hands and who He has PREDESTINATED from the foundation of the world. Those whom He has BEFORE prepared unto glory.

So, please brother, do not take the statement of least emphesis and change the whole context of what Paul is truly emphesizing...which is salvation "not of works, but of Him that calleth." (verse 11) [/color][/i][/b][/quote]

My friend, he doesnt believe the truth..forget about it..but what you posted is good to me..its truth..[/quote]

Thanks bro. And it's just as good for me to share it. Even if people don't believe or receive...it's good for us to speak It forth. Amen. Have a good night and God bless.