Luke 21 and Its Parallels

[Drew]

No doubt, many will be familar with Luke 21 and its parallels. And no doubt, most of you think that the account is of Jesus' second coming. I do not think it is. Consider this part of the Luke 21 account:

There will be signs in sun and moon and stars, and on the earth dismay among nations, in perplexity at the roaring of the sea and the waves, 26men fainting from fear and the expectation of the things which are coming upon the world; for the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 27"Then they will see THE SON OF MAN COMING IN A CLOUD with power and great glory.

I suspect that many of you take "coming in a cloud" phrase to denote Jesus' return to earth from heaven in the future. Well, a different picture emerges if you follow up the Old Testament allusions. Jesus is quoting from Daniel 7:

I kept looking in the night visions,
And behold, with the clouds of heaven
One like a Son of Man was coming,
And He came up to the Ancient of Days
And was presented before Him.

The cloud metaphor is not a descent from heaven to earth, but rather an ascent from earth to heaven. Jesus is not referring to his second coming in Luke 21, He is referring to his vindication, as will be demonstrated by his resurrection from the dead.

Note what Jesus says to Caiaphus at his “trialâ€Â:

But He kept silent and did not answer Again the high priest was questioning Him, and saying to Him, "Are You the Christ, the Son of the Blessed One?" 62And Jesus said, "I am; and you shall see THE SON OF MAN SITTING AT THE RIGHT HAND OF POWER, and COMING WITH THE CLOUDS OF HEAVEN."

Is Jesus suggesting that Caiaphus will see Jesus 2nd coming? Or that He will see Jesus floating by on a cloud? No. These cryptic allusions need to be interpreted in the wider Biblical context. Jesus is telling Caiaphus that he (Caiaphus) will Jesus vindicated – the Daniel 7 image of coming on the clouds, in context, is an allusion to vindication after suffering. Jesus is cryptically telling Caiaphus that He will be raised from the dead (as well as some other things).

 

[handy]

Interesting, but don't you think that Acts 1:9-11 comes to bear in our understanding of what Jesus was speaking of here:

Acts 1:9-11
9And after He had said these things, He was lifted up while they were looking on, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. 10And as they were gazing intently into the sky while He was going, behold, two men in white clothing stood beside them. 11They also said, "Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into the sky? This Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come in just the same way as you have watched Him go into heaven."

 

[NIGHTMARE]

No doubt, many will be familar with Luke 21 and its parallels. And no doubt, most of you think that the account is of Jesus' second coming. I do not think it is. Consider this part of the Luke 21 account:

There will be signs in sun and moon and stars, and on the earth dismay among nations, in perplexity at the roaring of the sea and the waves, 26men fainting from fear and the expectation of the things which are coming upon the world; for the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 27"Then they will see THE SON OF MAN COMING IN A CLOUD with power and great glory.

I suspect that many of you take "coming in a cloud" phrase to denote Jesus' return to earth from heaven in the future. Well, a different picture emerges if you follow up the Old Testament allusions. Jesus is quoting from Daniel 7:

I kept looking in the night visions,
And behold, with the clouds of heaven
One like a Son of Man was coming,
And He came up to the Ancient of Days
And was presented before Him.

The cloud metaphor is not a descent from heaven to earth, but rather an ascent from earth to heaven. Jesus is not referring to his second coming in Luke 21, He is referring to his vindication, as will be demonstrated by his resurrection from the dead.

Note what Jesus says to Caiaphus at his “trialâ€Â:

But He kept silent and did not answer Again the high priest was questioning Him, and saying to Him, "Are You the Christ, the Son of the Blessed One?" 62And Jesus said, "I am; and you shall see THE SON OF MAN SITTING AT THE RIGHT HAND OF POWER, and COMING WITH THE CLOUDS OF HEAVEN."

Is Jesus suggesting that Caiaphus will see Jesus 2nd coming? Or that He will see Jesus floating by on a cloud? No. These cryptic allusions need to be interpreted in the wider Biblical context. Jesus is telling Caiaphus that he (Caiaphus) will Jesus vindicated – the Daniel 7 image of coming on the clouds, in context, is an allusion to vindication after suffering. Jesus is cryptically telling Caiaphus that He will be raised from the dead (as well as some other things).

What do you mean when you say "raised from the dead"??????????????

 

[Free]

Very interesting Drew; I had never thought of that. Something to ponder.

What do you mean when you say "raised from the dead"??????????????

I suspect he means "raised from the dead".

 

[handy]

Very interesting Drew; I had never thought of that. Something to ponder.

What do you mean when you say "raised from the dead"??????????????

I suspect he means "raised from the dead".

:nod

 

[NIGHTMARE]

Very interesting Drew; I had never thought of that. Something to ponder.

What do you mean when you say "raised from the dead"??????????????

I suspect he means "raised from the dead".

Many times people have different ideas of what raised from the dead mean so I just wanted to be sure if hes talking about coming up and out of the grave......

 

[NIGHTMARE]

No doubt, many will be familar with Luke 21 and its parallels. And no doubt, most of you think that the account is of Jesus' second coming. I do not think it is. Consider this part of the Luke 21 account:

There will be signs in sun and moon and stars, and on the earth dismay among nations, in perplexity at the roaring of the sea and the waves, 26men fainting from fear and the expectation of the things which are coming upon the world; for the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 27"Then they will see THE SON OF MAN COMING IN A CLOUD with power and great glory.

I suspect that many of you take "coming in a cloud" phrase to denote Jesus' return to earth from heaven in the future. Well, a different picture emerges if you follow up the Old Testament allusions. Jesus is quoting from Daniel 7:

I kept looking in the night visions,
And behold, with the clouds of heaven
One like a Son of Man was coming,
And He came up to the Ancient of Days
And was presented before Him.

The cloud metaphor is not a descent from heaven to earth, but rather an ascent from earth to heaven. Jesus is not referring to his second coming in Luke 21, He is referring to his vindication, as will be demonstrated by his resurrection from the dead.

Note what Jesus says to Caiaphus at his “trialâ€Â:

But He kept silent and did not answer Again the high priest was questioning Him, and saying to Him, "Are You the Christ, the Son of the Blessed One?" 62And Jesus said, "I am; and you shall see THE SON OF MAN SITTING AT THE RIGHT HAND OF POWER, and COMING WITH THE CLOUDS OF HEAVEN."

Is Jesus suggesting that Caiaphus will see Jesus 2nd coming? Or that He will see Jesus floating by on a cloud? No. These cryptic allusions need to be interpreted in the wider Biblical context. Jesus is telling Caiaphus that he (Caiaphus) will Jesus vindicated – the Daniel 7 image of coming on the clouds, in context, is an allusion to vindication after suffering. Jesus is cryptically telling Caiaphus that He will be raised from the dead (as well as some other things).

Still reading throught this im not sure I follow can you elaborate on why you believe it is a ascention from earth to heaven......

 

[Free]

I said that just to get your response and see where you were coming from. I haven't seen anything from Drew that would ever suggest anything other than the literal physical resurrection of Christ.


Read the underlined in Daniel: "up to the Ancient of Days".

 

[Drew]

Interesting, but don't you think that Acts 1:9-11 comes to bear in our understanding of what Jesus was speaking of here:

Acts 1:9-11
9And after He had said these things, He was lifted up while they were looking on, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. 10And as they were gazing intently into the sky while He was going, behold, two men in white clothing stood beside them. 11They also said, "Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into the sky? This Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come in just the same way as you have watched Him go into heaven."

I have never denied that Jesus will indeed come again. My point was that in the Luke 21 account (and its parallels), Jesus uses a Biblical concept - "coming on the clouds" - that has its roots in Daniel and, in the Danielic context, denotes not a descent from heaven to earth, but an "ascent of exultation"

The Daniel 7 context is about vindication after suffering and defeating the beasts. Surely it is natural to see that Jesus uses the phrase to allude to his vindication over the enemy of death having defeated it on the cross, not as a reference to the 2nd coming.

Please note that in the Acts materlal the "coming on the clouds" metaphor is not used.

 

[Drew]

What do you mean when you say "raised from the dead"??????????????

I am a little confused. Do the rest of you see my post as containing a string of questions after my comment about resurrection from the dead? My version has no such question marks and I certainly never intended any. Perhaps there is a "technical" problem on my end - I am getting some very weird glitches in my attempts to post.

Do you guys see question marks in my post?

 

[Drew]

Many times people have different ideas of what raised from the dead mean so I just wanted to be sure if hes talking about coming up and out of the grave......

I am indeed talking about Jesus' ressurection from the dead - being dead and then being alive.

 

[Drew]

Still reading throught this im not sure I follow can you elaborate on why you believe it is a ascention from earth to heaven......

Here is the verse from Daniel 7 that Jesus is quoting from in Luke 21. Note that the son of man comes up to be presented to Ancient of Days. That is why I think that Jesus intends the reader to think in terms of an ascent.

I kept looking in the night visions,
And behold, with the clouds of heaven
One like a Son of Man was coming,
And He came up to the Ancient of Days
And was presented before Him.

I see that my old friend from the Second Cup in Ottawa (inside reference between Free and me) also answered the question.

 

[Drew]

I would like to explore the trial scene some more in relation to this issue. From Mark 14:

But He kept silent and did not answer (AT)Again the high priest was questioning Him, and saying to Him, "Are You the Christ, the Son of the Blessed One?" 62And Jesus said, "I am; and you shall see (AU)THE SON OF MAN SITTING AT THE RIGHT HAND OF POWER, and (AV)COMING WITH THE CLOUDS OF HEAVEN." 63(AW)Tearing his clothes, the high priest said, "What further need do we have of witnesses?

Here Jesus alludes to two Old Testament passages from Psalm 110 and, again, Daniel 7. From Psalm 110:

The LORD says to my Lord:
"(B)Sit at My right hand
Until I make (C)Your enemies a footstool for Your feet."

I trust we all see that, by quoting this “Messianic†verse, Jesus is indeed answering yes to the question about being the Messiah.

Again, from Daniel 7:

I kept looking in the night visions,
And behold, with the clouds of heaven
One like a Son of Man was coming,
And He came up to the Ancient of Days
And was presented before Him.

Why does Jesus’ statement enrage Caiaphas so much? One needs to remember that there was no expectation that the Messiah or even the “son of God†would be divine. We can see this in hindsight, but you need to remember that Messiah means “king†and does not connote divinity. Same thing with the concept of “Son of God†– that term did not connote divinity to the 2nd temple Jew.

But what does Jesus do? He claims to be Messiah and then adds a claim of divinity – by the reference to sitting at the right hand. This is complemented by the allusion to Daniel 7 – Jesus is saying that He will be “raised up†and be presented to the Ancient of Days, to be enthroned beside Him – a strong implicit claim of divinity.

And it is in this context that the “coming on the clouds of heaven†metaphor is used. Do you not see how it makes sense to this as a reference to Jesus being raised from the dead and assuming his seat at the right hand of the Father, and not as an allusion to the 2nd coming.

This is fundamentally an ascent, not a descent. Jesus has defeated the beasts, has been raised from the dead, and raised on high to the right hand of God. The phrase “coming on the clouds†should not be viewed in isolation. Jesus knows his Old Testament and makes the reference to Daniel 7 (and Psalm 110) to make the claim of divinity to complement the answer of “yes†to the question of Messiahship.

Caiaphas, too, knows his Old Testament. He understands that what Jesus is saying is a cryptic claim of divinity as well as messiahship. No wonder Caiaphus tore his robe……

 

[dadof10]

No doubt, many will be familar with Luke 21 and its parallels. And no doubt, most of you think that the account is of Jesus' second coming. I do not think it is. Consider this part of the Luke 21 account:

There will be signs in sun and moon and stars, and on the earth dismay among nations, in perplexity at the roaring of the sea and the waves, 26men fainting from fear and the expectation of the things which are coming upon the world; for the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 27"Then they will see THE SON OF MAN COMING IN A CLOUD with power and great glory.

I suspect that many of you take "coming in a cloud" phrase to denote Jesus' return to earth from heaven in the future. Well, a different picture emerges if you follow up the Old Testament allusions. Jesus is quoting from Daniel 7:

I kept looking in the night visions,
And behold, with the clouds of heaven
One like a Son of Man was coming,
And He came up to the Ancient of Days
And was presented before Him.

The cloud metaphor is not a descent from heaven to earth, but rather an ascent from earth to heaven. Jesus is not referring to his second coming in Luke 21, He is referring to his vindication, as will be demonstrated by his resurrection from the dead.

Note what Jesus says to Caiaphus at his “trialâ€Â:

But He kept silent and did not answer Again the high priest was questioning Him, and saying to Him, "Are You the Christ, the Son of the Blessed One?" 62And Jesus said, "I am; and you shall see THE SON OF MAN SITTING AT THE RIGHT HAND OF POWER, and COMING WITH THE CLOUDS OF HEAVEN."

Is Jesus suggesting that Caiaphus will see Jesus 2nd coming? Or that He will see Jesus floating by on a cloud? No. These cryptic allusions need to be interpreted in the wider Biblical context. Jesus is telling Caiaphus that he (Caiaphus) will Jesus vindicated – the Daniel 7 image of coming on the clouds, in context, is an allusion to vindication after suffering. Jesus is cryptically telling Caiaphus that He will be raised from the dead (as well as some other things).

Really interesting take, Drew. I do have a few questions, though. In Matt. 24:29 Jesus prefaces the "cloud" verse with "Immediately after the tribulation of those days...", which refers back to verses 15-28. This scene seems to be a future event (some think the destruction of the Temple) which happens after the resurrection.

I guess what I'm asking is, do you think these verses (24:1-31) are not to be taken as chronological? Could you give an exegesis of the verses that precede 29-31? I'm sure you probably have all the time in the world to give a detailed exegesis of 31 verses. :yes

 

[Drew]

Really interesting take, Drew.

I should make it clear that my thinking is not original in this respect. The views that I present are largely inspired by the writings of English theologian NT Wright.

I do have a few questions, though. In Matt. 24:29 Jesus prefaces the "cloud" verse with "Immediately after the tribulation of those days...", which refers back to verses 15-28. This scene seems to be a future event (some think the destruction of the Temple) which happens after the resurrection.

I agree. I did not want to bite off too much at once. I have said that the "coming on the clouds" picture really denotes Jesus' vindication by being raised from the dead. I actually believe that there is more to the vindication image than this. I suggest that it is rather clear that the Daniel 7 pictue, from which the image is extracted, is all about vindication after suffering (perhaps some will want to dispute this).

Part of that vindication of Jesus will consist in the events of 70 AD. Throughout his ministry, Jesus announced coming judgement on Israel. He is "vindicated" as a prophet when these events come to pass. So the vindication image is not only about Jesus' being resurrected. The destruction of the temple also vindicates Him since He pronounced judgement against it.

 

[whirlwind]

No doubt, many will be familar with Luke 21 and its parallels. And no doubt, most of you think that the account is of Jesus' second coming. I do not think it is. Consider this part of the Luke 21 account:

There will be signs in sun and moon and stars, and on the earth dismay among nations, in perplexity at the roaring of the sea and the waves, 26men fainting from fear and the expectation of the things which are coming upon the world; for the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 27"Then they will see THE SON OF MAN COMING IN A CLOUD with power and great glory.

Perhaps this is what is referred to.....

Revelation 1:7 Behold, He cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see Him, and they also which pierced Him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of Him. even so, Amen.

Or....

Acts 1:9 And when He had spoken these things, while they beheld, He was taken up; and a cloud received Him out of their sight. (11) Which also said, "Ye men of Galilee why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, Which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen Him go into heaven."

I suspect that many of you take "coming in a cloud" phrase to denote Jesus' return to earth from heaven in the future. Well, a different picture emerges if you follow up the Old Testament allusions. Jesus is quoting from Daniel 7:

I kept looking in the night visions,
And behold, with the clouds of heaven
One like a Son of Man was coming,
And He came up to the Ancient of Days
And was presented before Him.

The event depicted in Daniel is after the second Advent of Christ. It is the beginning of the millennium. The first beast is thrown in the lake of fire. The second beast (Satan) is locked away for the thousand years and....Jesus reigns. [Daniel 7:11-14] At that time He is with His "clouds of witnesses." [Hebrews 12:1]

The cloud metaphor is not a descent from heaven to earth, but rather an ascent from earth to heaven. Jesus is not referring to his second coming in Luke 21, He is referring to his vindication, as will be demonstrated by his resurrection from the dead.

It seems to be both....descent and ascent. He arrives in a cloud with clouds at His 2nd Advent and those clouds also are presented "to the Ancient of days" where "there was given Him dominion," an "everlasting dominion." [Daniel 7:13-14]

Note what Jesus says to Caiaphus at his “trialâ€Â:

But He kept silent and did not answer Again the high priest was questioning Him, and saying to Him, "Are You the Christ, the Son of the Blessed One?" 62And Jesus said, "I am; and you shall see THE SON OF MAN SITTING AT THE RIGHT HAND OF POWER, and COMING WITH THE CLOUDS OF HEAVEN."

Is Jesus suggesting that Caiaphus will see Jesus 2nd coming? Or that He will see Jesus floating by on a cloud? No. These cryptic allusions need to be interpreted in the wider Biblical context. Jesus is telling Caiaphus that he (Caiaphus) will Jesus vindicated – the Daniel 7 image of coming on the clouds, in context, is an allusion to vindication after suffering. Jesus is cryptically telling Caiaphus that He will be raised from the dead (as well as some other things).

 

[Drew]

[qoute="whirlwind"]The event depicted in Daniel is after the second Advent of Christ. It is the beginning of the millennium. The first beast is thrown in the lake of fire. The second beast (Satan) is locked away for the thousand years and....Jesus reigns. [Daniel 7:11-14] At that time He is with His "clouds of witnesses." [Hebrews 12:1][/quote]
I do not agree with your interpretation of the beasts. They would be seen by the 2nd temple Jew - to whom this material is directed - as references to four earthly kingdoms that have oppressed the Jewish people.

 

[whirlwind]

[qoute="whirlwind"]The event depicted in Daniel is after the second Advent of Christ. It is the beginning of the millennium. The first beast is thrown in the lake of fire. The second beast (Satan) is locked away for the thousand years and....Jesus reigns. [Daniel 7:11-14] At that time He is with His "clouds of witnesses." [Hebrews 12:1]

I do not agree with your interpretation of the beasts. They would be seen by the 2nd temple Jew - to whom this material is directed - as references to four earthly kingdoms that have oppressed the Jewish people.

The first beast is an earthly kingdom that continues to oppress the world. It will be destroyed but ...not the other beast, until after the millennium.

 

[NIGHTMARE]

[qoute="whirlwind"]The event depicted in Daniel is after the second Advent of Christ. It is the beginning of the millennium. The first beast is thrown in the lake of fire. The second beast (Satan) is locked away for the thousand years and....Jesus reigns. [Daniel 7:11-14] At that time He is with His "clouds of witnesses." [Hebrews 12:1]

I do not agree with your interpretation of the beasts. They would be seen by the 2nd temple Jew - to whom this material is directed - as references to four earthly kingdoms that have oppressed the Jewish people.[/quote]

Hey Drew ,,

Revelations 13 is very clear that the first beast is a "united political world system" that is turned into a religous system when the second beast (satan) arrives......

 

[Drew]

Perhaps this is what is referred to.....

Revelation 1:7 Behold, He cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see Him, and they also which pierced Him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of Him. even so, Amen.

Or....

Acts 1:9 And when He had spoken these things, while they beheld, He was taken up; and a cloud received Him out of their sight. (11) Which also said, "Ye men of Galilee why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, Which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen Him go into heaven."

I do not think the view you present is plausible. We need to take the reference to Daniel 7 seriously. Now here is the verse that Jesus is quoting from:

I kept looking in the night visions,
And behold, with the clouds of heaven
One like a Son of Man was coming,
And He came up to the Ancient of Days
And was presented before Him.[/quote]

Is Jesus coming down from Heaven to Earth? No. Emphatically no - He is coming up to the Ancient of Days. This cannot be an allusion to the 2nd coming - Jesus would not have got his directions wrong. People in that culture really knew their Old Testament. An allusion to Daniel 7:13 would be understood as a reference to travel from earth to heaven - and more specifically, as an allusion to upward exultative ascent after suffering. One needs to understand the OId Testament references when they are invoked in the New Testament.

As to your other scriptures that have clouds related to downward travel from heaven to earth. I do not deny such texts. But, and I cannot emphasize this strongly enough, those texts were not in existence at the time of Jesus’ trial before Caiaphus. So Jesus could not have been alluding to them. Caiaphus and Jesus both know what the reference to coming on the clouds is. It is a reference to Daniel 7 and if we are true to context, we will understand that Jesus is referring to an upward ascent in vindicative victory.

Besides, ww, do you really think that Jesus is telling Caiaphus that he will see Jesus’ 2nd coming? Boy, that would make Caiaphus over 2000 years old. Remember what Jesus says:

Again the high priest asked him, "Are you the Christ,[f] the Son of the Blessed One?"
62"I am," said Jesus. "And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven."