[_ Old Earth _] Lysosomes

[Barbarian]

Nice pictures but they do not mean what you concluded. You said there are no Lysosome membranes

Well, let's take a look...

I wrote:
There is no special lysosome membrane:
The lysosomal membrane, which has a typical single phospholipid bilayer, controls the passage of material into and out of lysosomes, by its permeability and ability to fuse with digestive vacuoles or engulf cytosolic material.

You acknowledged this:
Bro Paul wrote:

So let me see…first you say “There is no special lysosome membrane”

and then the site you referred me to says there is (which is what I said). So who is correct? The site you referred me to, or you? Oh I see…you added a word not used by me so you could play this game (“special”)…very tricky…I guess I have to be even more on my toes for these twists…

See above. My original statement was that there was no special lysosome membrane, and you acknowledged the fact that I said it. So I'm puzzled what it is you're doing here.

And because all such membranes are similarly constructed (even of the same materials) does not equal one coming from the other (though I understand the casing of the endosome vessel comes out of the plasma membrane .

And the vesicle with the enzymes, which pinches off from the Golgi apparatus, has the same membrane, and they fuse to make a lysosome.

And I am quite familiar with the structure. So what? Yes the endosome material is encased while in the plasma membrane…then merged with already encased enzymes and other proteins…and so on...

And the monomers making up these membranes just get taken apart and recycled into other membranes.

You say the Wiki article words it badly, but your second reference says exactly the same thing. That this merged product is transported through the cytoplasm and engulfed by the Lysosome.

No. They form the lysosome.

Your Scitable article defines these as separate. It says “Today, scientists know that the endomembrane system includes the endoplasmic reticulum(ER), Golgi apparatus, AND lysosomes”…”The ER, Golgi apparatus AND lysosomes are all members of a network of membranes, but they are not continuous with one another”…

In particular, lysosomes are formed by the fusion of transport vesicles budded from the trans Golgi network with endosomes, which contain molecules taken up by endocytosis at the plasma membrane.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK9953/

No! I am afraid this time what you are telling us is not supported by the science (though it is the "theory")

It's not debatable. Vesicles from the Golgi apparatus fuse with endosomes, to make mature lysosomes. When they are done acting on the substrate, they break down, and the bilayer monomers are recycled.

These acids would be hostile to a “newly forming” lysosome membranes if it were a process of gradual evolution.

We see newly forming lysosome membranes happening in cells today. The acid hydrolases are contained in those very membranes in vesicles that pinch off from the Golgi apparatus.

You yourself have demonstrated they already arrive at their destination neatly packaged.

That's how they start from the Golgi apparatus. Then they fuse with an endosome, to form a lysosome. The lysosome contains both the substrate (from phagocytosis) and the acid hydrolases (from the Golgi apparatus).

What do you suppose would happen if we submerged a phospholipid bilayer in a pool of these enzymes?

You wouldn't be able to do that. You could add phospholipid to such a mixture. Depending on the concentration of enzyme, it would spontaneously form bilayer vesicles of different sizes.

Or poured these enzymes on top of a stack of phospholipid bilayer membranous materials?

These are molecules, remember, not materials you can pick up and move as visible membranes. Much too small for that. And without water, they wouldn't form a bilayer at all.

Also why do you say all the cells we look at are already dead

You have to fix them in order to see the structures. Fixing involves preparations that kill the cell. Unless they use tagged radioisotope markers, which do allow us to look at ongoing processes in living cells. I'm not sure if anyone has done that for lysosomes. Usually, they fix tissue, and then sort through the cells to find different stages of the process.

What you are trying to say is…well no one has actually observed this process…!

No one can directly see a molecule of phospholipid. But we can, in various ways, figure out what's going on. And yes, it is known that lysosomes form from the fusion of vesicles from the Golgi apparatus with endosomes.

Do a search on "electron micrograph formation of lysosome" and see some of the ways we can study the process.

 

[brother Paul]

It's not debatable. Vesicles from the Golgi apparatus fuse with endosomes, to make mature lysosomes. When they are done acting on the substrate, they break down, and the bilayer monomers are recycled.These acids would be hostile to a “newly forming” lysosome membranes if it were a process of gradual evolution.

We see newly forming lysosome membranes happening in cells today. The acid hydrolases are contained in those very membranes in vesicles that pinch off from the Golgi apparatus.


I must assume what you are telling me IS what is happening. But has anyone actually seen this happening? Can others (have others) confirm this happening other than reasonable speculation and man-made diagrams?


What do you suppose would happen if we submerged a phospholipid bilayer in a pool of these enzymes?
You wouldn't be able to do that… You could add phospholipid to such a mixture. Depending on the concentration of enzyme, it would spontaneously form bilayer vesicles of different sizes.


At least we assume that would happen but I am not sure we actually know (it has not been done)…its not the same as when two encased materials mix (fuse) into an already formed membrane….

Or poured these enzymes on top of a stack of phospholipid bilayer membranous materials?
These are molecules, remember, not materials you can pick up and move as visible membranes. Much too small for that. And without water, they wouldn't form a bilayer at all.


But in water what would happen to the acids?

Also why do you say all the cells we look at are already dead
You have to fix them in order to see the structures. Fixing involves preparations that kill the cell. Unless they use tagged radioisotope markers, which do allow us to look at ongoing processes in living cells. I'm not sure if anyone has done that for lysosomes. Usually, they fix tissue, and then sort through the cells to find different stages of the process.


Yes this is indeed what we do. But killing them kind of changes the game though leaving speculation and best guess our only option (at this time)….however I could not find any examples where we observed this process.


Okay I will read up on the Electron Microscopy work…


One day soon (if the Lords return waits till then) we will have instrumentation that can view the process I am sure. We can already capture more gross processes like cell division so it is only a matter of time.


Well I concede here but if you find any better actual examples please PM me…or add it here


Always a pleasure…the Lord bless


Paul

 

[Barbarian]

Barbarian observes:
It's not debatable. Vesicles from the Golgi apparatus fuse with endosomes, to make mature lysosomes. When they are done acting on the substrate, they break down, and the bilayer monomers are recycled.

These acids would be hostile to a “newly forming” lysosome membranes if it were a process of gradual evolution.

Seems unlikely, given that they exist in the cytoplasm of prokaryotes, with the same sort of membranes forming properly. What is your evidence for this?

Barbarian observes:
We see newly forming lysosome membranes happening in cells today. The acid hydrolases are contained in those very membranes in vesicles that pinch off from the Golgi apparatus.

I must assume what you are telling me IS what is happening. But has anyone actually seen this happening? Can others (have others) confirm this happening other than reasonable speculation and man-made diagrams?

Sure. For example electron micrographs of cells. It's just a matter of finding a cell where (for example) a vesicle is in the process of pinching off from the Golgi apparatus. Or where a vesicle and endosme are fusing. It's not that hard. I suppose there are biochemical methods of doing that as well, but I'm not familiar with them. Maybe someone has done it with tagged carbon in living cells. I don't know.

What do you suppose would happen if we submerged a phospholipid bilayer in a pool of these enzymes?

Barbarian observes:
You wouldn't be able to do that… You could add phospholipid to such a mixture. Depending on the concentration of enzyme, it would spontaneously form bilayer vesicles of different sizes.

At least we assume that would happen

• That's easily observed. The bilayer forms spontaneously, and the sort of phospholipid that is in the cell has a slight angle of attachment, so, the bilayer spontaneously bends in three dimensions, forming a vesicle. Without a vesicle, the enzymes would just act on substrates in the cytoplasm, a lot less efficiently. But it works, as observed in prokaryotes.

 

[brother Paul]

Seems unlikely, given that they exist in the cytoplasm of prokaryotes, with the same sort of membranes forming properly. What is your evidence for this?

What organelle membranes do we see "forming" in prokaryotes? You say "the same sort of membranes forming properly"...what membranes do we see forming "properly" (forgive me I have to be careful of those possible curve balls) IN prokaryotes?

Sure. For example electron micrographs of cells. It's just a matter of finding a cell where (for example) a vesicle is in the process of pinching off from the Golgi apparatus. Or where a vesicle and endosme are fusing.

I do not doubt this fusion of two vesicles...that does not answer the question implied by the poster...does this or does this not indicate a slow gradual evolution?

the bilayer spontaneously bends in three dimensions, forming a vesicle.

Where can I see this happening? After all, Cryo-electron microscopy, for example, relies secondarily on a computer program designed to reconstruct an approximate 3D image….people program computers (GIGO)…

Without a vesicle, the enzymes would just act on substrates in the cytoplasm, a lot less efficiently. But it works, as observed in prokaryotes

Yes these already contained in a membrane enzymes (the cell membrane) work on (Lys and dice) the substrates...and do not form Lysosomes.

 

[Barbarian]

Barbarian observes:
Seems unlikely, given that they exist in the cytoplasm of prokaryotes, with the same sort of membranes forming properly. What is your evidence for this?

What organelle membranes do we see "forming" in prokaryotes?

Cell membrane. Gram-negative bacteria have two of them, an outer membrane, and an inner membrane.
1. The bacterial cytoplasmic membrane is a fluid phospholipid bilayer that encloses the bacterial cytoplasm.
http://faculty.ccbcmd.edu/courses/bio141/lecguide/unit1/prostruct/cm.html

You say "the same sort of membranes forming properly"...what membranes do we see forming "properly" (forgive me I have to be careful of those possible curve balls) IN prokaryotes?

By "properly", I was referring to your claim that they couldn't form properly in the presence of acid hydrases. They can and do. Those enzymes in prokaryotes are in the cytoplasm, not in lysosomes.

Sure. For example electron micrographs of cells. It's just a matter of finding a cell where (for example) a vesicle is in the process of pinching off from the Golgi apparatus. Or where a vesicle and endosme are fusing.
I do not doubt this fusion of two vesicles...that does not answer the question implied by the poster...does this or does this not indicate a slow gradual evolution?

Yes, it does. As you see, the various membrane-enclosed organelles of eukaryotes have the same membrane as the prokaryote cell membrane. So not at all hard to see how this can gradually evolve.

the bilayer spontaneously bends in three dimensions, forming a vesicle.

Where can I see this happening?

Spontaneous vesicle formation at lipid bilayer membranes.
Biophys J. 1996 Sep; 71(3): 1208–1214.
Unilamellar vesicles are observed to form spontaneously at planar lipid bilayers agitated by exothermic chemical reactions. The membrane-binding reaction between biotin and streptavidin, two strong transmembrane neutralization reactions, and a weak neutralization reaction involving an "antacid" buffer, all lead to spontaneous vesicle formation. This formation is most dramatic when a viscosity differential exists between the two phases bounding the membrane, in which case vesicles appear exclusively in the more viscous phase. A hydrodynamic analysis explains the phenomenon in terms of a membrane flow driven by liberated reaction energy, leading to vesicle formation. These results suggest that energy liberated by intra- and extracellular chemical reactions near or at cell and internal organelle membranes can play an important role in vesicle formation, membrane agitation, or enhanced transmembrane mass transfer.

After all, Cryo-electron microscopy, for example, relies secondarily on a computer program designed to reconstruct an approximate 3D image….people program computers (GIGO)…[/quote]

When I was an undergraduate, computers were room-sized and too weak to process images. Back in the day, we did it analog. Recorded on silver emulsion directly from the display. Saw the same things.

Without a vesicle, the enzymes would just act on substrates in the cytoplasm, a lot less efficiently. But it works, as observed in prokaryotes

Yes these already contained in a membrane enzymes (the cell membrane) work on (Lys and dice) the substrates...and do not form Lysosomes.

There is considerable genetic evidence for evolution of these organelles in eukaryotes.
http://jcs.biologists.org/content/120/17/2977/F1.expansion.html

 

[brother Paul]

Those enzymes in prokaryotes are in the cytoplasm, not in lysosomes

I know but what you keep saying is that there are membranes that keep "forming" in the prokatyotes (by which I assume you mean the inner layer of the prokaryotes cell membrane - not all prokaryotes have two layers). Are you saying this layer keeps re-forming over and over in the presence of these enzymes?

The first article says nothing about membrane formation and the red quote is from an article referring to Eukaryotes...can't you supply support for your assertion?

Final article same bait and switch the statement YOU made refers to prokaryotes....and their forming membranes within (show me)

 

[Barbarian]

I know but what you keep saying is that there are membranes that keep "forming" in the prokatyotes (by which I assume you mean the inner layer of the prokaryotes cell membrane - not all prokaryotes have two layers). Are you saying this layer keeps re-forming over and over in the presence of these enzymes?

The first article says nothing about membrane formation and the red quote is from an article referring to Eukaryotes...can't you supply support for your assertion?

Final article same bait and switch the statement YOU made refers to prokaryotes....and their forming membranes within (show me)

 

[Barbarian]

I know but what you keep saying is that there are membranes that keep "forming" in the prokatyotes (by which I assume you mean the inner layer of the prokaryotes cell membrane - not all prokaryotes have two layers).

Yes. They grow, and must form new membrane as they grow. When they divide into two, the process begins again. There are always two layers of a cell membrane. Otherwise, it won't work. Gram-negative bacteria lack a thick cell wall, and instead what peptoglycan they have is sandwiched between 2 phospholipid bilayers.

Are you saying this layer keeps re-forming over and over in the presence of these enzymes?

See above. The inner membrane is in contact with them (remember, they are not sequestered within an organelle, but are free in the cytoplasm.

The first article says nothing about membrane formation and the red quote is from an article referring to Eukaryotes...can't you supply support for your assertion?

I've cited a lot of studies. Can you be more specific?

Final article same bait and switch the statement YOU made refers to prokaryotes...

We are discussing prokaryotes, after all, and why the evolution of lysosomes is manifestly possible. As you have seen, there is no need for the enzymes in question to be sequestered from the cell membrane, and they do not interfere with the formation of cell membranes.

 

[brother Paul]

The first point here is absurd….neither are they sequestered from the membrane of the lysosome in a Eukaryote...


The first article says nothing about membrane formation and the red quote is from an article referring to Eukaryotes...can't you supply support for your assertion?
I've cited a lot of studies. Can you be more specific?


Indeed you have, but none demonstrate membranes (even the cell membrane) “forming” in these acids…you keep repeating what we believe as to how they form, but we KNOW the cell membrane(s) must already be in place for it to be a prokaryote!!!

So at no time are membranes “forming” IN these acids to house these acids (they are already contained in membranes). What you are saying to me is that already extant membranes that contain these acids regenerate…(of course they do however this does not negate the posters assertion)


This like asking a person why the pot of water is boiling on my stove, or for evidence water is actually boiling on my stove (which they actually have no evidence for), and then having one keep repeating an explanation of how water comes to a boil. So either they cannot answer because there is no answer available or they are avoiding the issue. RE-generation was never the discussion.


There is not a time in the prokaryote when there is not such a membrane present containing these hydrolases and then one forms to contain already extant free floating hydrolases. In the prokaryote (either variety) they are always already contained. Which came first in a slow gradual evolution?


Final article same bait and switch, the statement YOU made refers to prokaryotes...
We are discussing prokaryotes, after all, and why the evolution of lysosomes is manifestly possible. As you have seen, there is no need for the enzymes in question to be sequestered from the cell membrane, and they do not interfere with the formation of cell membranes.


First off you should have quoted the rest....after all that was MY point. We were discussing prokaryotes but in each case you midway were switching to Eukaryote examples.


Secondly, yes we know they are not sequestered here from the cell membranes, but instead the point IS they are, and always have been, contained within the membranes. Thus they did not form IN the hydrolases (the posters point) and these acids certainly did not form in empty membrane sacs (so which came first).

If they existed and the cell membranes did not yet exist do you really suppose the cell membranes would have formed? Where they exist as free floating chemicals (which of course cannot be shown since they are proteins made via DNA in a living system) can one see cell membranes forming so as to become a prokaryote? No! Can we see any semblance of hydrolase empty cell membranes suddenly manufacturing these acids (and please do not show me how they are continually manufactured where they already exist -diagrams are useless, I already know it is a continuous process - and please do not tangent off into this as a new branch-diversion)...

 

[Barbarian]

he first point here is absurd….neither are they sequestered from the membrane of the lysosome in a Eukaryote...

And yet these membranes form in the presence of acid hydrolases. Not just in eukaryotes, in all cells.

Indeed you have, but none demonstrate membranes (even the cell membrane) “forming” in these acids…

They form, for example in prokaryotes, in the presence of acid hydrolases in the cell. I already showed you that. Bacteria have acid hydrolases in their cytoplasm. And yet they grow and form new cell membrane anyway. In the Golgi apparatus, acid hydrolases are produced, and the membrane grows around it, and pinches off to form a vesicle. I don't see what's so hard to understand.

you keep repeating what we believe as to how they form, but we KNOW the cell membrane(s) must already be in place for it to be a prokaryote!!!

But for it to grow, divide into two new cells, and grow to full size again, new membrane has to be formed. And it does, even though there are acid hydrolases in the cell. Again, I don't see what's so hard to understand.

So at no time are membranes “forming” IN these acids to house these acids (they are already contained in membranes).

No, that's wrong. For example, they are in the cytoplasm of prokaryotic cells, and yet these cells continue to grow new membrane. And in eukaryotic cells, the Golgi apparatus grows new membrane to contain the enzyme, which then pinches off to form a vesicle. I'm beginning to think you think these are acids, not acid hydrolases. They are so called, because they work optimally in low pH, not because the are acids themselves. Is that the issue here? An enzyme is an organic catalyst. It allows a reaction to proceed at a much higher rate than it otherwise would, but it is not itself affected by the reaction. Does that help?

What you are saying to me is that already extant membranes that contain these acids regenerate…

No, that's wrong. The Gogi apparatus has to grow new membrane to enclose the enzyme to make a vesicle. The old membrane doesn't break down in this process; the Golgi apparatus continues to exist. It just grows more membrane.

The point remains that the acid hydrolase system works in prokaryotes, showing that there is no problem with membrane formation in the presence of these enzymes. Again, I suspect the name misled you into thinking that they are acids, rather than enzymes that work more efficiently in an acid environment. The Golgi apparatus grows new membrane to enclose them as the are produced, again showing that there is no problem with membranes forming in eukaryotes.

Here's the claim in the OP:

Lysosome contain enzymes that are used to break down material and get it ready for disposal. All of these enzymes work best at a low pH, reducing the risk that these enzymes will digest the very cell they are contained in should they somehow escape from the lysosome. Keep in mind that the pH of water, from which all life spring from (according to evolution) has a pH of 7. The cell could not house these enzymes without the membrane.

But as you learned, these enzymes exist in prokaryotes, the cells of which house the enzyme with no membrane enclosing it at all. That's just how it is. No point in denying it. The OP is just completely wrong.

 

[brother Paul]

And yet these membranes form in the presence of acid hydrolases. Not just in eukaryotes, in all cells.

So according to this, these enzymes are present at the initial forming of these membranes before these membranes (the cell membranes) exist !?!

So when there are no cell membranes, only these enzymes, the cell membrane forms (previously not there) causing a prokaryote to form.

Surely you are missing the point entirely! There are no prokaryote when only these enzymes exist without any cell membrane and no enzymes until they are made according to the encoded instructions within the genetic material of the cell (Which has a membrane).

They form, for example in prokaryotes, in the presence of acid hydrolases in the cell. I already showed you that.

Dude these enzymes you are referring to are already enclosed in the very membrane that is regenerating….

In the Golgi apparatus, acid hydrolases are produced, and the membrane grows around it, and pinches off to form a vesicle.

They are produced INSIDE the Golgi Apparatus and we see them being pinched off….nothing suggests the membranes form around them INSIDE the Golgi Apparatus

new membrane has to be formed. And it does, even though there are acid hydrolases in the cell.

The alleged new membranes of the cell replicant form already CONTAINING the hydrolases….

What you are saying to me is that already extant membranes that contain these acids regenerate…

No, that's wrong. The Gogi apparatus has to grow new membrane to enclose the enzyme to make a vesicle. The old membrane doesn't break down in this process; the Golgi apparatus continues to exist. It just grows more membrane.

See the bait and switch technique (maybe it was programmed in during indoctrination by drill and repetition)

No one was speaking of Golgi here….The quote was in a discussion specifically about PROKARYOTES and then you quickly switch to Golgi Apparatus here (which are in Eukaryotes)…do have an issue staying on topic? We can discontinue if I am aggravating you….

I suspect the name misled you into thinking that they are acids

No, I was following your lead on this…I usually refer to them as Hydrolases

The cell could not house these enzymes without the membrane.
But as you learned, these enzymes exist in (you said it not me) prokaryotes, the cells of which house the enzyme with no membrane enclosing it at all. That's just how it is. No point in denying it. The OP is just completely wrong.

Can you re-read the part in red? Can you imagine a cell WITHOUT a membrane? Absurd! You yourself go on to say the cells of which house the enzyme with no membrane enclosing it at all.. when you KNOW the cell MEMBRANE encloses it (you use “houses” but it’s the same thing….now don’t jump to Eukaryotes here….enough of that game…stay on point)

Are the HYDROLASES in PROKARYOTES encompassed (housed) by a membrane (in this case a cell Membrane)? Yes or no?

No more tom foolery just yes or no....

 

[Barbarian]

Barbarian observes:
And yet these membranes form in the presence of acid hydrolases. Not just in eukaryotes, in all cells.

So according to this, these enzymes are present at the initial forming of these membranes before these membranes (the cell membranes) exist !?!

Membranes existed before the Cambrian. I don't get the question. They are always being made and removed in living cells.

So when there are no cell membranes, only these enzymes, the cell membrane forms (previously not there) causing a prokaryote to form.

There are no cells without cell membranes. I thought you knew.

Here's the claim in the OP:

Lysosome contain enzymes that are used to break down material and get it ready for disposal. All of these enzymes work best at a low pH, reducing the risk that these enzymes will digest the very cell they are contained in should they somehow escape from the lysosome. Keep in mind that the pH of water, from which all life spring from (according to evolution) has a pH of 7. The cell could not house these enzymes without the membrane.

They form, for example in prokaryotes, in the presence of acid hydrolases in the cell. I already showed you that.

Dude these enzymes you are referring to are already enclosed in the very membrane that is regenerating….

And the claim that they would digest the very cell that they are contained in, if they weren't in a lysosome, is clearly false. They are in the cell, they aren't contained in a lysosome, and they don't digest the cell. It's just that simple.

Are the HYDROLASES in PROKARYOTES encompassed (housed) by a membrane (in this case a cell Membrane)?

Yes. It is one of the several reasons why the claim in the OP is false. (it's above in dark red) They are "housed" in the cell, they are not contained in a lysosome, and they don't "digest" the cell. The whole idea is just faulty.

 

[brother Paul]

Because the OP was speaking of Lysosomes (which are in Eukatyotes) it is correct. When not IN the Lysosome membrane proper they are contained in the Golgi. They are contained when they pinch off and stay contained till they merge.

In the case of Prokaryotes (which WE were discussing) it is still correct because the Hydrolases are contained IN the cell membrane (which at no time does nor exist if a cell). Sp in neither case are they not already contained.

So since WE were discussing Prokaryotes...if a gradual evolution produced them,

Which came first, the Hydolases or the Cell membrane that contains them?

 

[brother Paul]

Spontaneous simultaneous generation of prokaryotes seems unlikely but cannot be dismissed since then parts would have developmentally precede the other....

However spontaneous "re-generation" has been observed in the case of green Alga....see

http://jcs.biologists.org/content/114/11/2009.short

Acid hydrolases as far as I know have never been discovered in red or brown algae (the Eukaryote varieties have shown vesicles which function similarly), but i am not certain about green....

a) if these exzymes are present in green. and
b) we have observed the total breakdown and regeneration of the entire cell membrane,
c) here would be the perfect example of your belief....

I will continue to explore this fascinating question....

 

[Barbarian]

Here's the claim in the OP:

Lysosome contain enzymes that are used to break down material and get it ready for disposal. All of these enzymes work best at a low pH, reducing the risk that these enzymes will digest the very cell they are contained in should they somehow escape from the lysosome. Keep in mind that the pH of water, from which all life spring from (according to evolution) has a pH of 7. The cell could not house these enzymes without the membrane.

They form, for example in prokaryotes, in the presence of acid hydrolases in the cell. I already showed you that. And the claim that they would digest the very cell that they are contained in, if they weren't in a lysosome, is clearly false. They are in the cell, they aren't contained in a lysosome, and they don't digest the cell. It's just that simple. Prokaryotes "house" these enzymes without any lysosomes at all. The claim is demonstrably false.

Spontaneous simultaneous generation of prokaryotes seems unlikely but cannot be dismissed since then parts would have developmentally precede the other....

I don't see what that has to do with the OP's false claim. Oh, and cytoplasm is about pH 7.2, which is pretty close to what Precambrian oceans had.

 

[Barbarian]

Because the OP was speaking of Lysosomes (which are in Eukatyotes) it is correct.

Nope.

Clin Chim Acta. 1979 Aug 15;96(1-2):67-72.
"Lysosomal" enzyme activities in red blood cells of normal individuals and patients with homozygous beta-thalassaemia.
Yatziv S, Kahane I, Abeliuk P, Cividalli G, Rachmilewitz EA.
Abstract
Four hydrolases, beta-galactosidase, beta-glucuronidase, beta-N-acetylglucosaminidase and acid phosphatase were examined in red blood cells (RBC) of normal donors and patients with homozygous beta-thalassaemia. Highly sensitive fluorimetric substrates were used to determine the specific activities of these enzymes. In order to avoid contamination by lysosomal activities derived from white blood cells (WBC), the mature RBV were separated from other blood elements by cellulose chromatography. The hydrolase activities in normal RBC were detected only in their plasma membranes and were found to be considerably lower than in WBC or platelets. In thalassaemic RBC, hydrolase activities were present in both plasma membranes and in the soluble fraction. The normoblast fraction contributed most of the hydrolase activity found in these preparations, suggesting the presence of lysosomal particles in thalassaemic RBC. No differences in the enzymatic activities were found when purified membranes of mature RBC from thalassemic and normal preparations were compared. The origin and roles of these hydrolytic enzymes in normal and thalassaemic RBC membranes are not known.

In the case of Prokaryotes (which WE were discussing) it is still correct because the Hydrolases are contained IN the cell membrane (which at no time does nor exist if a cell). Sp in neither case are they not already contained.

Nope. Let's look at the OP again:
Lysosome contain enzymes that are used to break down material and get it ready for disposal. All of these enzymes work best at a low pH, reducing the risk that these enzymes will digest the very cell they are contained in should they somehow escape from the lysosome. Keep in mind that the pH of water, from which all life spring from (according to evolution) has a pH of 7. The cell could not house these enzymes without the membrane.

And yet, they do. Both prokaryotes and eukaryotes (RBCs). The OP is demonstrably wrong.

So since WE were discussing Prokaryotes...if a gradual evolution produced them,
Which came first, the Hydolases or the Cell membrane that contains them?

The claim is that the hydrases will digest the cell, if not contained in a lysosome:
these enzymes will digest the very cell they are contained in should they somehow escape from the lysosome.

This is false, both in prokaryotes and eukaryotes. Observably so. If you've changed your claim to "the phospolipid bilayered membrane appeared before acid hydrases, that's very likely. It is the simplest structure in a cell, and the one absolutely essential feature for a cell. But that wasn't the claim in the OP, which is as you know, false.