[__ Science __ ] Man was in Pangaea

[daddd]

It is very probable that the ark landed when the continents were still together. It is also likely that the tower of Babel happened ((over a century after the flood year) on the supercontinent. That would make it easy for man and animals and plants to migrate to the various areas and what are now separate continents. Something changed quickly and the continents separated, carrying all the people and life on them. This seems to have happened at the same time as the lifespans of men dropping suddenly and drastically. (the best plotting of when lifespans changed points not to the flood but the time of Peleg) It was also in the days of Peleg that the bible says that the world was split or divided. That includes nations and languages, but many also believe it includes the physical division of the land masses.
This thread is to discuss the scientific or historical aspects of this.

 

[Barbarian]

The evidence shows that the breakup of Pangea started to break up about 195 million years ago, and slowed about 175 million years ago. This is why we don't see any evidence of man in the Western Hemisphere until maybe 20,000 years ago, and why there is no evidence of man in Antarctica at all. The motion of continents continues. North America continues to move away from Europe and Africa at about the same rate (a few centimeters per year) that it was moving at the beginning. Dating of rock along the Mid-Atlantic ridge confirms this finding.

As one ancient Christian source put it:
"In the days of Phalek (Peleg), the earth was divided a second time among the three sons of Noah; Shem, Ham and Japheth"

Peleg - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[daddd]

The evidence shows that the breakup of Pangea started to break up about 195 million years ago, and slowed about 175 million years ago.

Not true. Only belief imposed on to evidence suggests that age.

This is why we don't see any evidence of man in the Western Hemisphere until maybe 20,000 years ago, and why there is no evidence of man in Antarctica at all.

Since that is under ice for the most part, no big surprise there. Probably man decayed away too fast in that former time to be able to leave remains such as fossils or bones. Therefore what evidence would you like? As for your imaginary faith based dates, you might as well learn to lose them, because they are worthless guesses based on beliefs only.

The motion of continents continues. North America continues to move away from Europe and Africa at about the same rate (a few centimeters per year) that it was moving at the beginning.

Residual little movements do happen now. Irrelevant.

Dating of rock along the Mid-Atlantic ridge confirms this finding.

More belief based so called dating...ho hum

As one ancient Christian source put it:
"In the days of Phalek (Peleg), the earth was divided a second time among the three sons of Noah; Shem, Ham and Japheth"

Peleg - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

They can say what they like. Let's see the evidence (not faith based impositions upon evidence)
We do know that plants and animals got around the world somehow. It makes sense that the world was together and then broke up.

 

[Barbarian]

Not true. Only belief imposed on to evidence suggests that age.

Sorry, that's wrong. We have multiple sources of evidence showing those ages. It's not just verified radioisotope data (which has been directly verified by things like dating the flow that buried Pompeii on a known date). It's also the rate of movement of the continents. It's the geological column in places like the Grand Canyon, which could only form over many millions of years, from very old meandering rivers that were then uplifted and trapped in their banks.

Since that is under ice for the most part, no big surprise there. Probably man decayed away too fast in that former time to be able to leave remains such as fossils or bones.

No, that's wrong. There have been many, many fossils found in Antarctica. But humans were never there until very recent times.

Therefore what evidence would you like? As for your imaginary faith based dates, you might as well learn to lose them, because they are worthless guesses based on beliefs only.

No, that's wrong, too. As you now see, the evidence clearly show that the breakup of Pangea took many millions of years.

The Peleg story referred to human dispersal, not geologic time.

 

[Barbarian]

They can say what they like. Let's see the evidence (not faith based impositions upon evidence)

Just pointing out what ancient Christians knew; the Peleg story was about human dispersal, not Pangea. I showed you evidence that they knew this, even then.

Probably man decayed away too fast in that former time to be able to leave remains such as fossils or bones.

But they did everywhere else. So those fossils everywhere else shows that if they had been there, we'd find evidence of it.

As for your imaginary faith based dates,

Notice, that they are evidence-based.
Your faith-based ideas have no basis in scripture,. nor is there any evidence for them.

 

[daddd]

Sorry, that's wrong. We have multiple sources of evidence showing those ages.

No it is very right.

It's not just verified radioisotope data (which has been directly verified by things like dating the flow that buried Pompeii on a known date). It's also the rate of movement of the continents.

The slow residual movements today tell us nothing at all about the timing. They just tell you that you like to believe that such a small movement was how it always was. That is blind faith.

It's the geological column in places like the Grand Canyon, which could only form over many millions of years, from very old meandering rivers that were then uplifted and trapped in their banks.

Nonsense. That is probably why you just stated it as a supposed fact rather than any details.

No, that's wrong. There have been many, many fossils found in Antarctica. But humans were never there until very recent times.

If humans ans most animals could not leave remains in the different world that was long ago, why would you expect human remains there exactly?

No, that's wrong, too. As you now see, the evidence clearly show that the breakup of Pangea took many millions of years.

Except it doesn't. Saying something does not make it true.

The Peleg story referred to human dispersal, not geologic time.

Who mentioned imaginary (geologic) time?? The record of Peleg in the bible does give us the approximate time though. Many scholars place Peleg as being born some 101 years or some such after the flood. In Jewish tradition they say Abraham was a contemporary with Noah and that they spent some time together. They also say Peleg was about 6 years old when the tower of Babel happened. Nothing to do with 'geologic time'.

 

[daddd]

Just pointing out what ancient Christians knew; the Peleg story was about human dispersal, not Pangea. I showed you evidence that they knew this, even then.

Christians are not that ancient. Only a few thousand years since we started. I do not recall Paul or other apostles or Jesus stating anything about Peleg?

But they did everywhere else. So those fossils everywhere else shows that if they had been there, we'd find evidence of it.

You assume we could leave remains in Noah's day. Why? Proof? Why would we assume that nature worked the same then? Why would we assume that there may not have been a plethora of little worms or bacteria or trillobites etc etc etc that specialized in certain types of corpse disposal? There is a worm even today in the sea that specializes in disposing of a certain type of whale remains for example (snotworm). You are in no position to claim Adam would have slowly decayed away rather than returning to dust!

Notice, that they are evidence-based.
Your faith-based ideas have no basis in scripture,. nor is there any evidence for them.

What is evidence based exactly, or do you just like to say things for no reason?

 

[Barbarian]

Christians are not that ancient. Only a few thousand years since we started. I do not recall Paul or other apostles or Jesus stating anything about Peleg?

I'm just pointing out that Christians have always known that the comment about Peleg was about the dispersal of humans. Only after science discovered the breakup of Pangea did some Christians revise the Peleg verse to mean something else.

Before that, it was always accepted as written.

 

[Barbarian]

You assume we could leave remains in Noah's day. Why? Proof?

Other animals did. If you assume that it was somehow different and then changed after the flood, you'll need some evidence showing that. Otherwise, we'll have to accept the evidence as it is. The continents had separated long before man, which explains why there are no human fossils in the Americas or Antarctica.

Why would we assume that there may not have been a plethora of little worms or bacteria or trillobites etc etc etc that specialized in certain types of corpse disposal?

You'd also have to assume that they would only do that to humans. So now you have two more claims to show evidence for. What do you have? Why not just accept the evidence as it is?

You are in no position to claim Adam would have slowly decayed away rather than returning to dust!

You're in no position to claim that he didn't. It's just another non-scriptural miracle you ginned up to cover up the evidence.

What is evidence based exactly

It means the ideas that actually have real evidence supporting them, as opposed to your imagination.

 

[Barbarian]

No it is very right.

I see your denial, but the evidence is more persuasive.

The slow residual movements today tell us nothing at all about the timing.

Actually, they left a record of that movement. The age of the rocks in the Mid-Atlantic Ridge are precisely right, if the continents moved centimeters per year. Physics also shows this. If the continents moved even dozens of miles in a year, the energy released as heat would be sufficient to boil the seas. Would you like me to show you the numbers?

Saying something does not make it true.

As you now see, the actual process has all sorts of evidence for it. And all you have is you saying so. Not much of a choice is it?

In Jewish tradition they say Abraham was a contemporary with Noah and that they spent some time together.

In Jewish tradition, the Peleg verse was about human dispersal in the world. But you don't accept that. Because it doesn't fit your new interpretations of scripture.

(Barbarian notes Grand Canyon is millions of years old)

Nonsense. That is probably why you just stated it as a supposed fact rather than any details.

Entrenched meanders form very slowly in old uplifted rivers. No way to get this kind of formation in a sudden rush of water:

Old rivers meander like this. Usually, they move around, leading to new channels and oxbow lakes. But if the land is uplifted, they are "rejuvenated", and can only cut deeper and deeper into the existing channel. Over millions of years, this is the result.

Entrenched river - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

No point in denial. If you need to invent new doctrines, at least make them consistent with reality.

 

[daddd]

I'm just pointing out that Christians have always known that the comment about Peleg was about the dispersal of humans. Only after science discovered the breakup of Pangea did some Christians revise the Peleg verse to mean something else.

Before that, it was always accepted as written.

Which Christians? You seem to be suggesting that there was one opinion on the days of Noah and Peleg? If greater light on some passages in the bible happens as time goes by, that is a great thing. If people realize that there was deeper meaning to how the world was split or divided long ago, that is not a bad thing.

 

[daddd]

Other animals did.

So what, man is not other animals! Having some creatures being able to more slowly decomppose for whatever reason does not mean one size fits all. It simply means that some creatures, for whatever reasons in that former world that was could and did leave fossilized remains. Science has taken that to mean that the fossil record represents some sort of picture of all life on earth in the various layers and ages.

If you assume that it was somehow different and then changed after the flood, you'll need some evidence showing that.

If you assume that it was somehow the same and never changed after the flood, you'll need some evidence showing that. Meanwhile I will accept the record in the bible as evidence of what it was actually like!

Otherwise, we'll have to accept the evidence as it is.

No such thing. Unless you have evidence that the world was always the same laws and nature, then you have no evidence. You have beliefs that you paint on to various evidence.

The continents had separated long before man, which explains why there are no human fossils in the Americas or Antarctica.

No. The continents divided before man and most animals could leave remains. Big difference. Thinking that there should be remains for Adam and Noah and the fathers (and most other created kinds) is only a mistaken belief that science has used in modeling the past. Nothing more.

You'd also have to assume that they would only do that to humans.

No. We know that mankind and all other kinds were created the same few days. No one said that all were to return to dust rather than slowly decay away. The fact that some creatures for whatever reasons did and could decay away slowly does not mean all creatures did!
Some examples of creatures that dispose of bones in the modern world are given below
“Basically, wherever we put bones, we find [the worms],” says Greg Rouse from Scripps Institution of Oceanography, San Diego, and one of the team who found and described Osedax.

More than 30 species from around the world have so far been found. There’s the bone-eating snot flower, Osedax mucofloris, first found off Sweden. Osedax fenrisi was discovered near a hydrothermal vent at a depth of more than 2,000 metres in the Arctic, and named in 2020 after the Norse god Loki’s son, Fenris the wolf.

The bone-eating worm ranges in size from the length of a little finger to smaller than an eyelash. Those visible to the naked eye are usually females. Males are mostly tiny and don’t eat bones. They live in “harems” of tens or hundreds inside a female’s mucous tube, and wait for her eggs to emerge so they can immediately fertilise them.
--
Palaeontologists, in a quest to discover when Osedax worms evolved, have found telltale holes punched in the fossilised bones of a 100-million-year-old plesiosaur, one of the giant marine reptiles that once roamed the ocean.

Genetic studies back up the theory that Osedax have been around since at least the Cretaceous period, long before there were whale skeletons around to feast on."

Discovered in the deep: the worm that eats bones

Thought to have existed since the Cretaceous, more than 30 species of Osedax – ‘bone devourers’ or zombie worms – feast on whale skeletons

www.theguardian.com

These particular creatures do not deal in all bones of every creature on earth. Who knows what these and maybe many other creatures used to do in a different past world? Perhaps they helped dispose of many other creatures. In other words, it seems likely that the recycling of the original created nature was far more efficient that what we have today!

You're in no position to claim that he didn't. It's just another non-scriptural miracle you ginned up to cover up the evidence.

How about God Almighty, is He is a position?
Genesis 3:19



You will eat bread by the sweat of your brow until you return to the ground, since you were taken from it. For you are dust, and you will return to dust."

I was taught as a young Catholic that probably this meant that we return to dust 'eventually' and over a very long time. But that was based on science, and knowing how long it takes human remains today to totally decay away, not the bible itself.

 

[daddd]

I see your denial, but the evidence is more persuasive.

Then post some rather than pretending some exists!

Actually, they left a record of that movement. The age of the rocks in the Mid-Atlantic Ridge are precisely right, if the continents moved centimeters per year.

No one questions the movement. Strawman. Your dates are what is questioned!

Physics also shows this. If the continents moved even dozens of miles in a year, the energy released as heat would be sufficient to boil the seas. Would you like me to show you the numbers?

That amounts to a claim that physics was the same. Proof? Face it, science doesn't even know what forces are, let alone whether they existed the same! Prove thermo dynamic laws on earth were identical? Gravity? Etc

In Jewish tradition, the Peleg verse was about human dispersal in the world.

Source?

(Barbarian notes Grand Canyon is millions of years old)

I note he is making stuff up.

Old rivers meander like this.

So what? That does not mean all water flowing in a meandering pattern took zillions of years! It means that some land or stuff in the path of the water was basically easier to get through than other areas!

Usually, they move around, leading to new channels and oxbow lakes. But if the land is uplifted, they are "rejuvenated", and can only cut deeper and deeper into the existing channel. Over millions of years, this is the result.

If if if. What if there was a lot of sudden pushing up (uplifting in the time of the rapid continental separation? What if the Himalayas and other high ranges got pushed up at that time? Etc. You are not the only one that can what if. Two can play at that game. Maybe as declared believers people should stop thinking God and Hiis word are somehow not consistent with reality. Particularly the reality of the past and future.

 

[Barbarian]

Actually, they left a record of that movement. The age of the rocks in the Mid-Atlantic Ridge are precisely right, if the continents moved centimeters per year.

No one questions the movement.

And as you now realize, the data from the Mid-Atlantic Ridge shows that it took many millions of years.
Physics also shows this. If the continents moved even dozens of miles in a year, the energy released as heat would be sufficient to boil the seas. Would you like me to show you the numbers?

That amounts to a claim that physics was the same.

The evidence shows that it was. But If you want to imagine that it was different, Show us your evidence. What do you have?

In Jewish tradition, the Peleg verse was about human dispersal in the world.

Source?

I cited one ancient source. What do you have to show otherwise?

(Barbarian notes Grand Canyon is millions of years old)

I note he is making stuff up.

As you just learned, the entrenched meanders of the Grand Canyon could only have formed over millions of years. Would you like me to show you that, again?

So what?

It shows that the Grand Canyon took millions of years to form those meanders. As you learned, a sudden rush of water could not make them.

If if if. What if there was a lot of sudden pushing up (uplifting in the time of the rapid continental separation? What if the Himalayas and other high ranges got pushed up at that time?

We can still measure the rate of the Himalayas rising. It's still happening. A few centimeters per year. That's how it works. Maybe as a declared believer you should stop thinking God and Hiis word are somehow not consistent with reality.

 

[Barbarian]

So what, man is not other animals! Having some creatures being able to more slowly decomppose for whatever reason does not mean one size fits all. It simply means that some creatures, for whatever reasons in that former world that was could and did leave fossilized remains. Science has taken that to mean that the fossil record represents some sort of picture of all life on earth in the various layers and ages.

As you learned, there is no reason that humans can't form fossils. The record shows that they did, in places where they actually existed. This is your problem.

 

[Barbarian]

Which Christians? You seem to be suggesting that there was one opinion on the days of Noah and Peleg? If greater light on some passages in the bible happens as time goes by, that is a great thing. If people realize that there was deeper meaning to how the world was split or divided long ago, that is not a bad thing.

You'll need more than your imagination to change the meaning of scripture. What do you have?

 

[daddd]

You'll need more than your imagination to change the meaning of scripture. What do you have?

Why would I change how the bible says there was a flood and later a tower of Babel and Peleg etc? Try to debate honestly

 

[daddd]

As you learned, there is no reason that humans can't form fossils. The record shows that they did, in places where they actually existed. This is your problem.

No one asked if humans could form fossils. The issue is whether humans long ago could leave remains. Claiming they could without evidence is your problem, not mine.

 

[daddd]

Actually, they left a record of that movement. The age of the rocks in the Mid-Atlantic Ridge are precisely right, if the continents moved centimeters per year.


And as you now realize, the data from the Mid-Atlantic Ridge shows that it took many millions of years.
Physics also shows this. If the continents moved even dozens of miles in a year, the energy released as heat would be sufficient to boil the seas. Would you like me to show you the numbers?


The evidence shows that it was. But If you want to imagine that it was different, Show us your evidence. What do you have?

No evidence shows anything of the sort. Having a windy river does not show nature was the same. I kid you not.

In Jewish tradition, the Peleg verse was about human dispersal in the world.

Source?

I cited one ancient source. What do you have to show otherwise?

I must have missed it. Link?

(Barbarian notes Grand Canyon is millions of years old)
False. Prove it. (remember that faith based impositions onto evidences don't count at all)

As you just learned, the entrenched meanders of the Grand Canyon could only have formed over millions of years. Would you like me to show you that, again?

Show? What a picture? Tell us why it must have taken so long?

It shows that the Grand Canyon took millions of years to form those meanders. As you learned, a sudden rush of water could not make them.

I learned nothing of the sort. Why pretend your speculations are something other poster learned?

We can still measure the rate of the Himalayas rising. It's still happening.

Meaningless. Some small lifting up after the fact does not mean the range formed that way!

Oh and by the way, looking at your wiki link I see this
As observed above, an entrenched river can be caused by either tectonic uplift in the area or when the lowering of the sea level occurs. It can also be caused by increased level of downcutting or a collapse of moraine-dammed lake downstream

 

[Barbarian]

No evidence shows anything of the sort. Having a windy river does not show nature was the same. I kid you not.

All meandering rivers are old rivers. Deep meandering canyons are always the result of old, uplifted rivers.

Meaningless. Some small lifting up after the fact does not mean the range formed that way!

Actually, it does. As you learned, if it happened rapidly, the heat would have been sufficient to boil the seas. You merely assumed that it went faster in the past because reality won't support your new doctrines. So to deal with the heat problem, you invented a new miracle to cover your error.

But if one can invent a non-scriptural miracle to cover every problem, then all stories are equally plausible.