Mark 2:27 is not a good argument, SDAs, imo...

[wavy]

Mark 2:27 And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:

This is usually the argument that SDA's use to prove sabbath keeping for all believers. However, "men/man/mankind" in the hint levels of Hebraic understanding in the NT are Israelites.

True gentiles (pagans; the word "nations" in the scripture is usually and improperly translated the deragatory term of "gentiles") are called dogs and beasts and swine etc...

Yahshua says to not give what is holy/set-apart to the dogs:

Matthew 7:6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.

(this is also why Paul, or anyone else for that matter, could not have possibly gone out looking specifically for non-Israelite pagans). יהוה said:

Ezekiel 34:31 And ye my flock, the flock of my pasture, are men, and I am your God, saith ha Adon יהוה

Men are Israelites, the sheep of יהוה's pasture (the previous verse, the whole chapter, and other scriptures tell us this). They are men and sheep (a clean, domestic, and gentle animal) as opposed to the nations called "beasts of the field" throughout this chapter (like Ezekiel 34:8).

So the gospel and all blessings and covenants and hopes (and sabbaths) are given to those who are and would be Israel. Not for those who desire to be "gentiles" and yet again create the "middle wall of partition" and become again, despite the scriptures testimony of "one new man" (Ephesians 2:15), "aliens from the commonwealth of Israel" (Ephesians 2:12).

 

[guibox]

Mark 2:27 And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:

This is usually the argument that SDA's use to prove sabbath keeping for all believers. However, "men/man/mankind" in the hint levels of Hebraic understanding in the NT are Israelites

You have two problems:

1) The Seventh Day Sabbath precedes the Jewish nation
2) You have to prove that all instances of the word 'man' means Israelites.

Don't you think that this is a shallow interpretation of 'mankind'? That means that there is much advice that Christians follow that is merely restricted to the Jews.

"Peace on earth, good will to men'. I guess Christ's birth was basically for the Jews, then? Or do you get to pick and choose what 'man' means based on what fits your theological interpretation at the time?

 

[wavy]

You have two problems:

1) The Seventh Day Sabbath precedes the Jewish nation
2) You have to prove that all instances of the word 'man' means Israelites.

#1 is not a problem ("Israelite nation", I assume you mean). From the beginning, יהוה told Adam to be fruitful and multiply. This was to birth the set-apart nation that would fill all the earth (which will finally come pass at the end of the age). This failed when men became sinful, Yahweh destroyed them and renewed "be fruitful and multiple" with him.

Men became pagan again. Yahweh called Abraham out of his pagan father's house and told him he was going to be the father of nations, with his seed filling the earth. Renewed in Isaac and then in Jacob. Yahweh's plan has not changed from the beginning. The earth will be filled with set-apart seed.

At the beginning, there were no "dogs". Men became dogs.

#2 is not a problem, since I never said "man" always means Israelites. But it does most of the time, since Israel is who יהוה chooses to deal with in all nations.

Don't you think that this is a shallow interpretation of 'mankind'?

No.

That means that there is much advice that Christians follow that is merely restricted to the Jews.

Restriction is not the issue here. All believers are Israel. There is no distinction for there to be a "restriction". The first century term "Christian" was lumped upon believers as a deragatory term by man, (not יהוה who differs in Isaiah 44:5).

"Peace on earth, good will to men'. I guess Christ's birth was basically for the Jews, then? Or do you get to pick and choose what 'man' means based on what fits your theological interpretation at the time?

Not just for "Jews", but for all Israel in all nations (becoming the "fullness of the gentiles"; Genesis 48:19). He was also given for a light to the nations and those who are true heathen and who would join Israel. Please see Matthew 15:24.

And again:

Matthew 7:6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.

Tell me who the dogs and the pigs (and the beasts) are.

The Master Yah does clearly distinguishes Israel from the gentiles. Israel has more spiritual, heavenly matters to worry about:

Matthew 6:31 Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed?
Matthew 6:32 For after all these things do the Gentiles seek: for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things.
Matthew 6:33 But seek ye first the kingdom of יהוה, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

 

[Servant_2000]

Jesus was saying that the Sabbath, under the old covenant, was meant to serve human needs, not the other way around, thus the use of the expression that the "Sabbath was made for man." It was made for human need in a certain context, under the old covenant worship system as defined by the Law of Moses, until the Seed, Christ, should come.

Israelites were to rest from their work because they needed a rest from their agricultural toil. Through that rest they could worship God as the provider of all their needs, and as the God who had saved them from slave-like toil in Egypt. The Sabbath regulation was not given to Israel simply because God wanted people to keep religious rituals. It had a purpose for all those human beings to whom it was given. But it was given only to Israel under the old covenant.

Even Jews recognized that the Law of Moses, particularly its observances such as weekly and annual Sabbath observance, applied only to national Israel. Jewish rabbis understood that non-Jews did not need to keep the Law of Moses, including the Sabbath rest. This law was given to Israel alone, and only for as long as the old covenant was in force.

In His conversation with the Pharisees in Mark 2, Jesus added another thought: "The Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath." Why did Jesus say this? Again, the issue was not about who should keep the Sabbath, but about who had authority or lordship in terms of deciding how it should be kept, when it was required. In the context in which the conversation occurs between Jesus and the Pharisees, the question of "who" should keep the Sabbath would never have come up. Everyone understood that the Jews under the old covenant Law were the ones who should keep it. The question was, to repeat, how should those who were required to keep the Sabbath, keep it – and who had the authority to determine how it should be kept.

What had happened is that the Pharisees, the religious leaders, had questioned Jesus’ authority on the matter of his picking grain on the Sabbath. They had set themselves up above him on the issue of Sabbath interpretation. Yet, Jesus was the Word of God made flesh. Therefore, Jesus, who was God incarnate, had more authority than the human Pharisees to decide how the Sabbath should be observed – again, under the circumstances where it was required. He was, after all, the Lord of the law that had commanded Sabbath observance for old covenant Israel.

Jesus’ statement says nothing about who should or should not keep the Sabbath. Of course Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath. He is Lord of every command ever given by God – including all the 613 commands (by rabbinical count) of the Law of Moses. Jesus is also Lord of all time and all days of the week, including Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday and Friday. Jesus is, after all, Lord. But his being Lord of the Sabbath does not mean to say it is commanded for all people. The Lord of Israel was Lord of the law of circumcision, given as a sign to the children of Israel. But the fact that God was Lord of the circumcision law does not of itself imply that all human beings must keep it. In all cases, we have to know which of all the laws God ever gave apply to new covenant Christians.

Let us ask what has been and has not been said about the Sabbath in Mark 2:27. Jesus was addressing the Sabbath issue in the context of speaking to the religious leaders of old covenant Israel and the interpreters of the Law of Moses in His day. He was telling them as old covenant people how they should apply the law of the Sabbath, that is, with mercy and thought to human need. And He was telling them He had the authority to define how they should observe the Sabbath.

What isn’t said here? The issue of whether Gentiles or Christians need to keep the Sabbath is not mentioned. Please note that. Jesus is not commanding Christians to observe the Sabbath as "holy time." Read the passage carefully: Jesus does not issue a command to keep the Sabbath. That is not the question under debate in this verse. Therefore, we should not import this idea into this passage of Scripture. That is, we shouldn’t first assume that Christians must observe the Sabbath, and then claim that this idea is found in Mark 2:27-28, because it isn’t there.

I conclude, Jesus’ comments about the Sabbath being made for humanity reflect the idea that the Pharisees (as representatives of old covenant Israel) should have taught an enlightened Sabbath observance, not missing the reason why God gave the nation this holy time. Jesus’ statement about being the Lord of the Sabbath challenged the Pharisees’ attempt to subvert His authority in the matter and claim it

 

[SputnikBoy]

I refer you to Exodus 20:8-11:

8 "Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your manservant or maidservant, nor your animals, nor the alien within your gates. 11 For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

Who is 'the alien within your gates' who is also required to keep the Sabbath holy?

 

[SputnikBoy]

Israelites were to rest from their work because they needed a rest from their agricultural toil. Through that rest they could worship God as the provider of all their needs, and as the God who had saved them from slave-like toil in Egypt. The Sabbath regulation was not given to Israel simply because God wanted people to keep religious rituals. It had a purpose for all those human beings to whom it was given. But it was given only to Israel under the old covenant.

Today there is no less a need for a break from the weekly cycle. Sunday has become that recognized day. It is also known within mainstream Christianity as ‘the Sabbath Day’. Any English dictionary will tell you this. Sunday IS the recognized 'Christian Sabbath' and no one can legitimately refute that fact.

So, we see that the average Christian has no problem discarding ‘the 7th-day Sabbath’ because they see it as being of the ‘Old Covenant.’ They therefore regard that day as being not applicable or relevant to we present-day Christians. The 7th-day Sabbath was not meant for us today, they say.

BUT …what do they then do? Well, they install their OWN Sabbath Day because they still feel that innate need for ‘a day of rest and worship’. The difference, they say, is that the 7th-day (Saturday) was of the Old Covenant whereas Sunday is the relevant 'Sabbath' of the New Covenant. What they have done in their 'wisdom' is to have merely repaced one day with another and still come up with 'a weekly Sabbath'!

Am I the only one who finds something extremely illogical about this?

 

[Servant_2000]

I refer you to Exodus 20:8-11:

8 "Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your manservant or maidservant, nor your animals, nor the alien within your gates. 11 For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

Who is 'the alien within your gates' who is also required to keep the Sabbath holy?

Question Spuntnik..

You continue to quote the same "Remember the Sabbath day" but you never quote the scriptures just prior to it. The ones that say, "these are the commands I give to Israel"

 

[Servant_2000]

Israelites were to rest from their work because they needed a rest from their agricultural toil. Through that rest they could worship God as the provider of all their needs, and as the God who had saved them from slave-like toil in Egypt. The Sabbath regulation was not given to Israel simply because God wanted people to keep religious rituals. It had a purpose for all those human beings to whom it was given. But it was given only to Israel under the old covenant.

Today there is no less a need for a break from the weekly cycle. Sunday has become that recognized day. It is also known within mainstream Christianity as ‘the Sabbath Day’. Any English dictionary will tell you this. Sunday IS the recognized 'Christian Sabbath' and no one can legitimately refute that fact.

So, we see that the average Christian has no problem discarding ‘the 7th-day Sabbath’ because they see it as being of the ‘Old Covenant.’ They therefore regard that day as being not applicable or relevant to we present-day Christians. The 7th-day Sabbath was not meant for us today, they say.

BUT …what do they then do? Well, they install their OWN Sabbath Day because they still feel that innate need for ‘a day of rest and worship’. The difference, they say, is that the 7th-day (Saturday) was of the Old Covenant whereas Sunday is the relevant 'Sabbath' of the New Covenant. What they have done in their 'wisdom' is to have merely repaced one day with another and still come up with 'a weekly Sabbath'!

Am I the only one who finds something extremely illogical about this?

Have you ever read the texts that identify the 10 Commandments as The Covenant with Israel--the same covenant that is identified as being thrown out in Hebrews 4:21- 5:1?

 

[SputnikBoy]

I refer you to Exodus 20:8-11:

8 "Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your manservant or maidservant, nor your animals, nor the alien within your gates. 11 For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

Who is 'the alien within your gates' who is also required to keep the Sabbath holy?

Question Spuntnik..

You continue to quote the same "Remember the Sabbath day" but you never quote the scriptures just prior to it. The ones that say, "these are the commands I give to Israel"

But my question was simply, Who is 'the alien within your gates' who is also required to keep the Sabbath holy? If you or someone else can answer that question I would appreciate it.

 

[SputnikBoy]

[quote="Servant_2000":6975e]Israelites were to rest from their work because they needed a rest from their agricultural toil. Through that rest they could worship God as the provider of all their needs, and as the God who had saved them from slave-like toil in Egypt. The Sabbath regulation was not given to Israel simply because God wanted people to keep religious rituals. It had a purpose for all those human beings to whom it was given. But it was given only to Israel under the old covenant.

Today there is no less a need for a break from the weekly cycle. Sunday has become that recognized day. It is also known within mainstream Christianity as ‘the Sabbath Day’. Any English dictionary will tell you this. Sunday IS the recognized 'Christian Sabbath' and no one can legitimately refute that fact.

So, we see that the average Christian has no problem discarding ‘the 7th-day Sabbath’ because they see it as being of the ‘Old Covenant.’ They therefore regard that day as being not applicable or relevant to we present-day Christians. The 7th-day Sabbath was not meant for us today, they say.

BUT …what do they then do? Well, they install their OWN Sabbath Day because they still feel that innate need for ‘a day of rest and worship’. The difference, they say, is that the 7th-day (Saturday) was of the Old Covenant whereas Sunday is the relevant 'Sabbath' of the New Covenant. What they have done in their 'wisdom' is to have merely repaced one day with another and still come up with 'a weekly Sabbath'!

Am I the only one who finds something extremely illogical about this?

Have you ever read the texts that identify the 10 Commandments as The Covenant with Israel--the same covenant that is identified as being thrown out in Hebrews 4:21- 5:1?

There is no way that anyone is going to throw out "Thou shalt have no other gods before me." No Christian anyway! To suggest this is foolhardy at best.[/quote:6975e]

 

[wavy]

The sabbath is commanded for both old and new covenants, Servant.

Also, the new covenant was only made with both houses of Israel. Do you exclude yourself from the new covenant because it only says "house of Yahudah" and "house of Israel" in Jeremiah 31:31?

 

[Servant_2000]

Our Sabbatarian friends are always dwelling upon the terrible scenes at Sinai at the giving of the law and pointing others there; but Paul says, No, do not go there; but to Mount Sion, to Jesus and the new covenant.

So Jeremiah predicted the rejection of the covenant in the ark and that instead of it, men would seek to the name of the Lord at Jerusalem
where the gospel went forth.

"In those days, saith the Lord, they shall say no more, the ark of the, covenant of the Lord: neither shall it come to mind; neither shall they remember it; neither shall they visit it; neither shall that be done any more. At that time they shall call Jerusalem the throne of the Lord; and all the nations shall be gathered unto it, to the name of the Lord, to Jerusalem." Jer. 3:16,17.

Our FRIENDS are trying to revive the very thing the Lord said should be forgotten, "the ark of the covenant." All their study and worship is centered around that just as of old with the Jews. But the effort is vain. God has said it. Since the cross Jesus and Jerusalem have been where all eyes have turned while the ark and old covenant are forgotten, just as the Lord said it would be.

Isa. 2:3; "Out of Zion shall go forth the law and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem."

There is where we now go for the law, not to the ark or to Sinai.

There is no salvation in observing a day, any day. There is only salvation in entering into the rest that is only found in Jesus Christ.

Let us therefore strive to enter into His rest that we may not fall because of unbelief.


When God-the-Son rested on the seventh day of creation He was alive. But when God-the-Son rested in the tomb on the seventh day He was dead. And the meaning of this striking contrast is not lost on me. When God-the-Son resurrected on the first day, he rose AS the living Sabbath rest, leaving behind the old one-day-per-week Sabbath rest in the grave forever! Wow!

 

[Servant_2000]

I refer you to Exodus 20:8-11:

8 "Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your manservant or maidservant, nor your animals, nor the alien within your gates. 11 For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

Who is 'the alien within your gates' who is also required to keep the Sabbath holy?

Question Spuntnik..

You continue to quote the same "Remember the Sabbath day" but you never quote the scriptures just prior to it. The ones that say, "these are the commands I give to Israel"

But my question was simply, Who is 'the alien within your gates' who is also required to keep the Sabbath holy? If you or someone else can answer that question I would appreciate it.

When you mention "alian" I assume you mean "stranger" if so I give you this for the very same reason; for God said: "And when a stranger (alian) shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the Passover of the Lord, let all his males be circumcised * * * for no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof" (Exodus 12:48). But what did the "sons of the stranger (alian)," mentioned in Isaiah 56:6, have to do to be eligible for Sabbath keeping and entrance into God's house of prayer? They had to "join themselves to the Lord"; to love the name of the Lord"; to "be his servants"; to "take hold of God's covenant." But in doing this they had to be circumcised, for God said: "No stranger (alian), uncircumcised in heart, nor uncircumcised in flesh, shall enter into my sanctuary, of any stranger that is among the children of Israel" (Ezekiel 44:9). But when Gentiles thus "joined themselves to the Lord" they ceased to be Gentiles and became proselytes to the Jewish religion; when they kept the Sabbath, not as Gentiles, but as Jews. What you need to find is where any Gentile as such was ever commanded to keep the Sabbath. If you can produce such a passage, let us have it. And while you are looking for that, you might also tell us why, if the Sabbath was of universal application, the Gentiles were called "strangers (alians)." Here is a task for you to undertake. And why did Paul, speaking of them during the Jewish age, say they were "strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world"? Ephesians 2:12.

And why did God, when He gave the Sabbath commandment at Sinai, make it binding only on "the stranger that is within thy gates"? Exodus 20:10. Let you, my friend find where it was binding on the stranger without their gates. All this shows the Sabbath was not of universal application; if it had been, there would have been no "strangers (alians).

 

[wavy]

Our Sabbatarian friends are always dwelling upon the terrible scenes at Sinai at the giving of the law and pointing others there;

What? "Terrible scenes"???

So Jeremiah predicted the rejection of the covenant in the ark and that instead of it, men would seek to the name of the Lord at Jerusalem
where the gospel went forth.

"In those days, saith the Lord, they shall say no more, the ark of the, covenant of the Lord: neither shall it come to mind; neither shall
they remember it; neither shall they visit it; neither shall that be done any more. At that time they shall call Jerusalem the throne of the Lord;
and all the nations shall be gathered unto it, to the name of the Lord, to Jerusalem." Jer. 3:16,17.

Please keep this in context. Firstly, men are not going to seek the name of "the lord". Secondly, this has to do with the ARK, not the contents within it, or the covenant aspect of it. You're turning this into another "anti-law" passage when this has nothing to do with that at all...

What he's saying is that all men will not be troubled about the ark: some one taking it, it being lost, or have to worry about a Yom Kippur sacrifice (since the blood had to be sprinkled on the ark).

Our FRIENDS are trying to revive the very thing the Lord said should be forgotten, "the ark of the covenant."

This isn't true. You are just saying this because SDA's promote the sabbath. Surely "you shall not kill" is not something to be "rejected". The only thing you are fearful of and using this passage out of context against is the sabbath.

All their study and worship is centered around that just as of old with the Jews. But the effort is vain. God has said it. Since the cross Jesus and Jerusalem have been where all eyes have turned while the ark and old covenant are forgotten, just as the Lord said it would be.

This makes no sense. And again, you took Jeremiah out of context because you are directing all forms of rejection into "do not keep the sabbath". And as far as "old", Yahweh says:

Jeremiah 6:16 Thus saith יהוה, Stand ye in the ways, and see, and ask for the old paths, where is the good way, and walk therein, and ye shall find rest for your souls. But they said, We will not walk therein.

Anyway, again, you are just against the sabbath and are trying to find scripture to justify this in very vague and abstract ways.

Isa. 2:3; "Out of Zion shall go forth the law and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem."

There is where we now go for the law, not to the ark or to Sinai.

One of the only true things you've said so far.

There is no salvation in observing a day, any day.

No one said this (not me at least).

There is only salvation in entering into the rest that is only found in Jesus Christ.

Let us therefore strive to enter into His rest that we may not fall because of unbelief.

Has nothing to do with the sabbath, and this "rest" spoken of here has not come yet...

When God-the-Son rested on the seventh day of creation He was alive. But when God-the-Son rested in the tomb on the seventh day He was dead. And the meaning of this striking contrast is not lost on me. When
God-the-Son resurrected on the first day, he rose AS the living Sabbath rest, leaving behind the old one-day-per-week Sabbath rest in the grave forever! Wow!

This is vague and pure speculation. This makes no sense in light of scripture whatsoever and is the product of a wandering and already anti-sabbatarian and antinomian mind. And btw, no one was resurrected on the "first day".

Please translate this into "first day": mia ton sabbaton.

 

[wavy]

But when Gentiles thus "joined themselves to the Lord" they ceased to be Gentiles and became proselytes to the Jewish religion; when they kept the Sabbath, not as Gentiles, but as Jews.

This is not true. There is no such thing as a "Jewish religion" that is put in place by the bible. The "Jewish religion" that is mentioned in the bible is one of perversion: a time when manmade doctrines and falsehoods had infiltrated true worship and doctrine of Yahweh.

Isaiah 56 applied then and now. The "house of prayer" mentioned is Yahshua's house of prayer, as he makes it clear in the gospels.

What you need to find is where any Gentile as such was ever commanded to keep the Sabbath.

Of course not. They were looked upon as pagan dogs and swine. We aren't to give anything to them.

The "stranger" is not a pagan gentile, but some one considered just as much an Israelite as a native.

The same holds true for today. This is why those of the nations and Jews are "one new man" (Ephesians 2:15). You want to promote division and continue to be a "gentile". Gentiles get the tail end of things in the end, however...

And while you are looking for that, you might also tell us why, if the Sabbath was of universal application, the Gentiles were called "strangers (alians)."

Because you look at "gentile" as an individual person, while the true word is "nation" in Hebrew and Greek. A nation is not an individual. One from the nations is a "stranger", not a "nation".

And why did Paul, speaking of them during the Jewish age, say they were "strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world"? Ephesians2:12.

Speaking of Ephraim Israel who was named Lo-Ami in Hosea 1 as opposed to Judah.

Also, no such thing as a "Jewish age". Not only do you sound anti-sabbatarian and antinomian, but antisemtic as well. And anyway, this scripture defeats your whole point.

And why did God, when He gave the Sabbath commandment at Sinai, make it binding only on "the stranger that is within thy gates"? Exodus 20:10.

Because the ones from the nations realized that Yahweh was with this people and thus, they became a part of them. Within the gates is within the gates of those considered Israelites. The same holds true for today.

Believers are considered Israel, not "gentiles". But again, you choose (wrongly) to be considered one.

Let you, my friend find where it was binding on the stranger without their gates.

It's not. Because it was given to all those who were Israel, esteemed above other nations. So instead of staying a gentile, we join ourselves to YHWH and become Israel through Messiah, who is also Israel and we are fellow-heirs with him.

All this shows the Sabbath was not of universal application; if it had been, there would have been no "strangers (alians).

No, it isn't of universal application. You are correct. However, YHWH considers those who worship him as part of Israel, even though they may be from the nations.