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Mathematics and Reality

Classik

Member
"How can it be that mathematics, being after all a product of human thought which is independent of experience, is so admirably appropriate to the objects of reality?"
Einstein



also,
As far as the laws of mathematics refer to reality, they are not certain; and as far as they are certain, they do not refer to reality.


Who can answer his question???
 
"How can it be that mathematics, being after all a product of human thought which is independent of experience, is so admirably appropriate to the objects of reality?"
Einstein



also,
As far as the laws of mathematics refer to reality, they are not certain; and as far as they are certain, they do not refer to reality.


Who can answer his question???

It's this very thought I use to propose there must be an intelligence behind creation. When one object hits into another, for example, momentum is conserved and in effect two inanimate, non-thinking objects did a math problem. Only a "being" can understand what happened. But understanding implies purpose (i.e. reason) and something inanimate has no reason. Thus, it seems that reason is guiding these laws and motions to those objects that have no reason.
 
The issue, as I see it, is more about the rationality of math rather than the reality of math. Rationality implies logic. Logic is necessary for an ordered world to exist, and if logic exists, then God must exist.

The first step towards the proof that God exists is to determine whether you actually believe that laws of logic exist. Logical proof would be irrelevant to someone who denies that laws of logic exist. An example of a law of logic is the law of non-contradiction. This law states, for instance, that it cannot both be true that my car is in the parking lot and that it is not in the parking lot at the same time, and in the same way.

The basic operations of arithmetic are addition, subtraction, multiplication, and division. Laws of mathematics then, are basically descriptions of what happens within these operations (and more complex ones as well) . For example, with the law of addition we know that if you take 4 things and add them to 3 things, you end up with 7 things.

Laws of science are basically descriptions of what matter does based on repeated observations, and are usually expressed in mathematical equations. An example of a law of science is the law of gravity. Using the law of gravity, we can predict how fast a heavier than air object will fall to the ground given all the factors for the equation.

I have seldom heard anyone deny that laws of logic, mathematics, or science exist, but I have often heard people deny the existence of absolute moral laws. Whereas some laws like those that govern science, and mathematics describe reality, and how things do behave, absolute moral laws 'prescribe' how humans ought to, or ought not to behave. Rape and child molestation, for example, are two examples of absolute moral wrongs.

Unless you have disagreed with me to this point, you must believe that the laws of logic, math, science and morality exist. The question then is, are these laws material or immaterial? That's not asking what you might assume. The question is, are these laws made of matter, something you can feel, touch, manipulate? Or are they immaterial, without physical embodiment, abstract in nature? In other words, are they physical or non-physical things? Obviously you have to choose the latter.

The next question is whether you believe they are universal in nature, do they apply to everyone, or are they strictly up to the individual as to whether they apply or not? Does 2 + 2 = 4 only where you are at any given moment, and only because you say it does, or is this a universal law? Of course, it is universal. 2 + 2 = 4 is always true, everywhere in the universe.

You have acknowledged that laws of logic, mathematics, science, and absolute morality exist, that they are not made of matter, and that they are universal. The next question is: Do you believe they are changing or unchanging? Your answers thus far demand that you respond that they are unchanging, otherwise you disavow your previous answers.

Yyou had to acknowledge that immaterial, universal, unchanging laws of logic, mathematics, science, and absolute morality exist. Universal, immaterial, unchanging laws are necessary for rational thinking to be possible. Universal, immaterial, unchanging laws cannot be accounted for if the universe was random or only material in nature.

The Bible teaches us that there are two types of people in this world, those who profess the truth of God's existence and those who suppress the truth of God's existence. The options of "seeking" God, or not believing in God are unavailable. The Bible never attempts to prove the existence of God as it declares that the existence of God is so obvious that we are without excuse for not believing in Him.
Romans 1 NASB
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.
20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.
21 For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
The God of Christianity is the necessary starting point to make sense of universal, abstract, invariant laws by the impossibility of the contrary. These laws are necessary to prove ANYTHING. Therefore, the proof that God exists is that, without Him, we couldn't prove anything.

Note that the proof does not say that professed unbelievers do not prove things. The argument is that you must borrow from the Christian worldview, and a God who makes universal, immaterial, unchanging laws possible in order to prove anything.

This type of logical proof deals with ‘transcendentals’ or ‘necessary starting points,’ and the proof is called a ‘transcendental proof.’ Any contrary view to the God of Christianity being the necessary starting point for rationality is reduced to absurdity. You have to assume God in order to argue against Him. Only the Christian worldview can logically support rationality.
 
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Mathematics is the language of God.
verliebt.gif
 
Can I ask God to tutor me in mathematics, then?

questdriven:

Re. God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirt, in Matthew 28, John 13 thru 17, John's First Epistle, etc.:

One in Three, and Three in One.

Wonderful! :)

Blessings.
 
I am no one to answer a question by Einstein regarding math and reality on an intellectual basis but I do believe that some of Einstein's work has been discovered flawed due to his ignorance of that which had not been discovered, yet and its absence in factoring his equations. He apparently never came out of his ignorance of the existence of God who has a design (mathematical comprehension) and purpose for all creation, hence his flawed assumption and premise that mathematics is "a product of human thought." Consequentially, this flaw negates the validity of his question as stated. One must remove his flawed premise and conditional factor to even appropriately give any answer, as Claudya has above, unless the one giving the answer agrees with his atheistic premise or fails to recognize it as such.

Mathematics is a product of human thought to an extent. We use maths to work out the factors that govern this world that God put in place but we created the equations. To me, maths is a product of human thought in the same way a thermometer is a product of human invention. Having a thermometer does not create heat.
 
Mathematics is used in the production or creation of anything. It is not a product of design, but rather a MAJOR element of the design process; creation, from a creation orientated mindset.

Oh I agree you use maths when creating things but we still came up with equations. God makes maths possible but he didn't create maths, he created an orderly world that that can be described with uniform equations, that's how I view it at the moment anyway.

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That's probably depending on how you define maths.
If maths is defined as a system of abstract structures (equations) that are related to another through certain logical operations then you right, it's human made. Equations are our way of "wording" those structures.
However, mathematics works because it is the human mind's grasp of a logically structured system that is inherent to the world itself.
My post earlier in this thread was a rather subjective emotional faithfull statement of how I see God's fingerprint in that system.
 
It is the same as man ever coming to the point of "creating" life. IF man ever does that it will only be discovering the process by which God used long, long ago. Math and man's attempt to venture into it is only man's attempt to explain the design and truth of the universe created by God in terms understandable by man. God didn't need to know our equations as He is above that as much as we are above our needing to know the scientific data about breathing in order to breathe or make our heart beat.

Precisely

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