Matthew 25:31-46 and the doctrine of atonement

[sk0rpi0n]

First, lets read up on said verses. Pay attention to the underlined...


Matthew 25:31-46
31"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. 32All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

34"Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'

37"Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'

40"The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'

41"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'

44"They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'

45"He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'

46"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."


Now, christian doctrine on atonment teaches that one needs to accept the sacrifice of Jesus in order to be saved. But the verses in Matthew 25:31-46 does not have the righteous being saved on the basis of them accepting the sacrifice of Jesus, but instead on the good works they have done. The entire basis of judgement seems to simply be on how a person treats his fellow man. There is NO mention of Jesus dying for peoples sins and people being forgiven by accepting Jesus' death on the cross ...in spite of it being a core doctrine in christianity.


Why weren't the righteous told they were saved because they accepted the sacrifice of Jesus?
Why weren't the unrighteous told they were damned because they did not accept the sacrifice of Jesus?

Bear in mind, that this is an account of what happens on the day of judgement, which means it comes much, much AFTER the doctrine of atonement was established.



Discuss.

 

[GodspromisesRyes]

Re: Matthew 25:31-46 : contradicts the doctrine of atonement

ok i understand your question and there is an answer,

the sheep and goats are not about all people who have every lived that is the sheep are not christians and the goats the rest of the world

the sheep and goats are all people who have come into the kingdom of God when bidden to come, by faith in Jesus Christ. ( again this is not speaking of the wicked that never believed)

So we are talking about a group of people who all have come to faith in Jesus at one point in their life when called to come.

Now once we are In Christ we are supose to bare the fruit of Christ by abiding in faith until the end, If we abide and are faithful we will bare fruit of Christ and show forth what form of tree we are, If we have come to faith in Christ and do not bare any fruit by His coming, we show that our faith died along the way and did not endure to the obtaining of salvation at the end when he comes.

Those who did not feed cloth visist etc the goats, are those who did not endure in faith to the baring of fruit they did not show forth the love of God, they are the same ones spoken of in other parables such as the ones that hid their talent in the earth instead of producing more from what was given to them, they are the ones who came to the wedding but when he showed up they had no wedding garment on,the fish that were caught in the net of the kingdom of God but are thrown out as unjust when he comes etc...

So their problem is that they came to Christ and then did not endure in living faith to the production of fruit towards God with what He had given them and so they never made their garments white, they never produced for him anything but remained like the world and are thrown out.

We in Christ are judged by our works also, but not the same way as the world. We do not merit ourselves heaven without Christ by good behaviour, but we PROVE our FAITH which is what saves, by what fruit and works that our FAITH PRODUCED. If we say we believe but have no fruit or works towards God then our faith is PROVED dead.

 

[mutzrein]

I think we need to look again at the story of the sheep and goats.

It says the righteous will go to eternal life. How is one made righteous? By the way he treats his fellow man - as you seem to be suggesting? NO!

We are made righteous by faith. We are made sheep by faith - and the sheep here were just doing what sheep do naturally - they listened to their sheperd's voice and followed. Their nature is to care for the needy.

The goats on the other hand THINK that they are made righteous by doing what sheep do, so they do the same. However, they are still goats.

Read again what it says about the goats: "They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?' "He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'

You see the goats are protesting. Hey when did we see those in need of help AND NOT HELP YOU. They are saying, 'of course we did'. And Jesus reply is so telling. They were not helping for the sake of those in need. They were doing it for themselves. They were doing what they believed sheep do, in order to be made righteous.

 

[bleitzel]

I think we need to look again at the story of the sheep and goats.

It says the righteous will go to eternal life. How is one made righteous? By the way he treats his fellow man - as you seem to be suggesting? NO!

We are made righteous by faith. We are made sheep by faith - and the sheep here were just doing what sheep do naturally - they listened to their sheperd's voice and followed. Their nature is to care for the needy.

The goats on the other hand THINK that they are made righteous by doing what sheep do, so they do the same. However, they are still goats.

Read again what it says about the goats: "They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?' "He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'

You see the goats are protesting. Hey when did we see those in need of help AND NOT HELP YOU. They are saying, 'of course we did'. And Jesus reply is so telling. They were not helping for the sake of those in need. They were doing it for themselves. They were doing what they believed sheep do, in order to be made righteous.

Couldn't be more backwards. They are not saying 'of course we did' because they didn't do it at all. They're saying they never saw the Lord. They don’t realize that the Lord is in everyone so that by doing anything for anyone, they are doing it for the Lord. This is an indication of their selfishness and lack of works, not their selfish motivations for all the works they did.

And Jesus’ reply was not about them doing it for themselves, it was about them not doing it at all. How can you read the scriptures and come up with all of this?

It says the righteous will go to eternal life. How is one made righteous? By the way he treats his fellow man - as you seem to be suggesting? NO!

Uh, but that’s just the exact point of the passage. One is made righteous by his faith. And faith has two parts, cognitive assent (humbly accepting Christ as your saviour) and physical obedience (repentance and good works.)

The goats on the other hand THINK that they are made righteous by doing what sheep do, so they do the same. However, they are still goats.

Um, no again. The goats didn’t do anything nice at all. It’s those who are counted as sheep that did the nice things…

 

[bleitzel]

Re: Matthew 25:31-46 : contradicts the doctrine of atonement

ok i understand your question and there is an answer,

Just not a correct one

the sheep and goats are all people who have come into the kingdom of God when bidden to come, by faith in Jesus Christ. (this is not speaking of the wicked that never believed)…Those who did not feed cloth visist etc the goats, are those who did not endure in faith to the baring of fruit they did not show forth the love of God…

No, the sheep and goats represent all people. The sheep are the ones who obeyed God, accepted His word, repented of their sins, and did good works for their fellow man. The goats are the ones who didn’t.

 

[bleitzel]

Why weren't the righteous told they were saved because they accepted the sacrifice of Jesus?
Why weren't the unrighteous told they were damned because they did not accept the sacrifice of Jesus?

Bear in mind, that this is an account of what happens on the day of judgment, which means it comes much, much AFTER the doctrine of atonement was established.



Discuss.

Don’t know where you were going with this thread, skorp, but the passages are all encompassing. The righteous are those who acted in their faith, proving their true faith, their truly humble, repentant hearts. The unrighteous were the ones who did not humble themselves to God, obey His teachings, and show the love of Christ to their fellow man. There isn’t any reason for us to think that there was an outside group of people not counted for in these passages.

And the day of judgment comes well after any doctrine was established, what’s the point? I hope you weren’t going to posit that the sheep and goats only referred to the elect?

 

[GodspromisesRyes]

well we can respectfully disagree then, i believe the context of the whole chapter and the prior parables both which share the exact same message show forth the full meaning of the teaching.

we know well that if those goats are just the wicked then even if they would have fed us clothed us visited us they would still be cast away because it is not by doing these things that salvation is gained. only when these things are done through faith does it matter. paul said even if i give alli ahve to feed the poor and have not love it means nothing.

we further see the example in the passover, the blemishless lamb was slain, but the scapegoat had the sins put on it and it was taken to the wilderness and thrown off a cliff to die in its own sins, so these are goats who bare their own sins because they did not walk holy in what was given to them,

 

[bleitzel]

we know well that if those goats are just the wicked then even if they would have fed us clothed us visited us they would still be cast away because it is not by doing these things that salvation is gained. only when these things are done through faith does it matter. paul said even if i give alli ahve to feed the poor and have not love it means nothing.

Are you serious? You can read into this text that even if the goats were doing the kind acts they would not be doing them out of love and therefore not out of faith and therefore they really could never become sheep at all?!?!?

These passages DO make the connection between inheritance and actions. Sorry if it doesn't fit into your theology. The passages point out that one group had acts and one group didn't. You could says that both groups supposedly had faith, but the group without acts dies. Or you could say that only the sheep had faith, and lived. Either way...

But just so we're clear, faith means belief plus action. These passages are not meant to suggest that actions without belief can get you into heaven. Just the opposite, that belief without actions is dead.

 

[mutzrein]

And Jesus’ reply was not about them doing it for themselves, it was about them not doing it at all. How can you read the scriptures and come up with all of this?

I don't 'come up' with all of this. It's a parable.

If you think it means what virtually every other self-righteous academic interpretation gives it, sobeit.

 

[sk0rpi0n]

Read again what it says about the goats: "They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?' "He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'

You see the goats are protesting. Hey when did we see those in need of help AND NOT HELP YOU. They are saying, 'of course we did'. And Jesus reply is so telling. They were not helping for the sake of those in need. They were doing it for themselves. They were doing what they believed sheep do, in order to be made righteous.

Wrong dude!

They are not saying "of course we did", because they did not do anything at all.
Re-read the reply they recieved...

"whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'"

 

[sk0rpi0n]

Don’t know where you were going with this thread, skorp, but the passages are all encompassing. The righteous are those who acted in their faith, proving their true faith, their truly humble, repentant hearts. The unrighteous were the ones who did not humble themselves to God, obey His teachings, and show the love of Christ to their fellow man. There isn’t any reason for us to think that there was an outside group of people not counted for in these passages.

And the day of judgment comes well after any doctrine was established, what’s the point? I hope you weren’t going to posit that the sheep and goats only referred to the elect?

No, my position was that the sheep and goats referred to all people and that the doctrine of atonement wasnt even an issue at the scene of judgement.

I pointed out how the people were judged solely on the basis of their deeds. The righteous had merit because of their good deeds and the unrighteous ones were sent away because they did not do any good deeds. Nobody was being rewarded or punished for believing that Jesus died for their sins.

 

[mutzrein]

Read again what it says about the goats: "They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?' "He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'

You see the goats are protesting. Hey when did we see those in need of help AND NOT HELP YOU. They are saying, 'of course we did'. And Jesus reply is so telling. They were not helping for the sake of those in need. They were doing it for themselves. They were doing what they believed sheep do, in order to be made righteous.

Wrong dude!

They are not saying "of course we did", because they did not do anything at all.
Re-read the reply they recieved...

"whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'"

Fair enough - you are entitled to your opinion. To me it doesn't say they didn't do it at all but they didn't do it FOR the least of these. Their motive was not FOR others but FOR their own reasons believing that in doing so they could earn righteousness. Pretty much the state of many in Christendom I reckon.

 

[bleitzel]

No, my position was that the sheep and goats referred to all people and that the doctrine of atonement wasnt even an issue at the scene of judgement.

I pointed out how the people were judged solely on the basis of their deeds. The righteous had merit because of their good deeds and the unrighteous ones were sent away because they did not do any good deeds. Nobody was being rewarded or punished for believing that Jesus died for their sins.

Then we're in agreement, keep up the good work!

 

[bleitzel]

To me it doesn't say they didn't do it at all but they didn't do it FOR the least of these. Their motive was not FOR others but FOR their own reasons believing that in doing so they could earn righteousness. Pretty much the state of many in Christendom I reckon.

Then you're showing a lack of reading comprehension combined with a prejudice to read your own theology into the text.

 

[mutzrein]

To me it doesn't say they didn't do it at all but they didn't do it FOR the least of these. Their motive was not FOR others but FOR their own reasons believing that in doing so they could earn righteousness. Pretty much the state of many in Christendom I reckon.

Then you're showing a lack of reading comprehension combined with a prejudice to read your own theology into the text.

Call it what you like. All I know is man is NOT made righteous by good works - the very issue this OP westles with.

 

[GodspromisesRyes]

we know well that if those goats are just the wicked then even if they would have fed us clothed us visited us they would still be cast away because it is not by doing these things that salvation is gained. only when these things are done through faith does it matter. paul said even if i give alli ahve to feed the poor and have not love it means nothing.

Are you serious? You can read into this text that even if the goats were doing the kind acts they would not be doing them out of love and therefore not out of faith and therefore they really could never become sheep at all?!?!?

These passages DO make the connection between inheritance and actions. Sorry if it doesn't fit into your theology. The passages point out that one group had acts and one group didn't. You could says that both groups supposedly had faith, but the group without acts dies. Or you could say that only the sheep had faith, and lived. Either way...

But just so we're clear, faith means belief plus action. These passages are not meant to suggest that actions without belief can get you into heaven. Just the opposite, that belief without actions is dead.

ya know we arent disagreeing with each other lol i am not sure why you think we are?

 

[westtexas]

To me it doesn't say they didn't do it at all but they didn't do it FOR the least of these. Their motive was not FOR others but FOR their own reasons believing that in doing so they could earn righteousness. Pretty much the state of many in Christendom I reckon.

Then you're showing a lack of reading comprehension combined with a prejudice to read your own theology into the text.

Call it what you like. All I know is man is NOT made righteous by good works - the very issue this OP westles with.

Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves:it is the gift of God: Not of works,lest any man should boast. (KJV)

Westtexas

 

[bleitzel]

Call it what you like. All I know is man is NOT made righteous by good works - the very issue this OP westles with.

Mutzrein, when Paul talks about not being saved by works, as in Eph2:8.9 "8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faithâ€â€and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God 9not by works, so that no one can boast." he clearly contrasts that to faith. (Thanks to westtexas for pointing this out!) Living by faith is not a works theology. And living by faith means tow things, cognitive assention and actions that back it up and prove it. The OP is about those actions that back up the faith and prove it true. One can not say that they have faith if they do not also have actions.

The being made righteous by works theology that you are rightly disagreeing with is that where some people think that you can be saved by good deeds without faith! Good works are necessary, but you must have faith.

 

[mutzrein]

Call it what you like. All I know is man is NOT made righteous by good works - the very issue this OP westles with.

Mutzrein, when Paul talks about not being saved by works, as in Eph2:8.9 "8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faithâ€â€and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God 9not by works, so that no one can boast." he clearly contrasts that to faith. (Thanks to westtexas for pointing this out!) Living by faith is not a works theology. And living by faith means tow things, cognitive assention and actions that back it up and prove it. The OP is about those actions that back up the faith and prove it true. One can not say that they have faith if they do not also have actions.

The being made righteous by works theology that you are rightly disagreeing with is that where some people think that you can be saved by good deeds without faith! Good works are necessary, but you must have faith.

Which is what I am saying - the sheep have faith and their works are the fruit. They just do what is natural for sheep to do. The goats do not have faith, believing that they are made righteous by 'doing' what sheep do.

 

[sk0rpi0n]

You foolish man! Do you want proof that faith without good works is useless? Our father Abraham offered his son Isaac on the altar. Wasn't he considered to be right with God because of what he did? So you see that what he believed and what he did were working together. What he did made his faith complete.

That is what Scripture means where it says, "Abraham believed God. God accepted Abraham because he believed. So his faith made him right with God."And that's not all. God called Abraham his friend. So you see that a person is made right with God by what he does. It doesn't happen only because of what he believes.
-James 2:20-24