Bible Study Me a Christian having a very decent discussion with Jahovah witnesses about doctrine in erith Kent very edifying 20 Sep 24 Part 1 (audio)
- Thread starter faithflower
- Start date
-
Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
-
Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
-
Are you familiar with the reachout trust, a Christian Web site with detailed information on cults/sects etc?
I find talking about doctrine with JWs a waste of time, one goes round and round in circles.
I think it more productive to concentrate on Jesus and his free gift of salvation.
I find talking about doctrine with JWs a waste of time, one goes round and round in circles.
I think it more productive to concentrate on Jesus and his free gift of salvation.
Greetings Who Me,
reachouttrust.org
This gave a reasonable coverage, with a few errors, but I doubt that the average Christadelphian would have much difficulty answering each aspect that the article covers. In many cases one sentence or two is quoted from a booklet, and if these booklets were considered as a whole, then the Christadelphian view would be clearer and in my opinion the correct Scriptural view substantiates the Christadelphian perspective. Some of these booklets are available online.
Kind regards
Trevor
I appreciate the reference to the Reachout Trust site. I was interested in the following article on the Christadelphians:
The Christadelphians - Reachout Trust
The Christadelphians (CDs) were founded in America through the teachings of an Englishman, Dr. John Thomas. Thomas, surviving a shipwreck in 1832, vowed that he...
reachouttrust.org
This gave a reasonable coverage, with a few errors, but I doubt that the average Christadelphian would have much difficulty answering each aspect that the article covers. In many cases one sentence or two is quoted from a booklet, and if these booklets were considered as a whole, then the Christadelphian view would be clearer and in my opinion the correct Scriptural view substantiates the Christadelphian perspective. Some of these booklets are available online.
Kind regards
Trevor
I've only ever met one christadelphians in my life, but have met several JWs and Mormons, so haven't read up on them.
If you've found errors contact them, they may have a reason or may be unaware.
Greetings again Who Me,
For example I consider that the booklet "The Blood of Christ" by Robert Roberts is one of the best on the subject, and he clearly advocates that in the Atonement Jesus is our Representative, not our Substitute. I am not sure if any Evangelical would give much thought to this concept. Similarly with such subjects as Heaven and Hell, Immortal Souls, Trinity and the Kingdom. Evangelicals are so locked up in their conventional view of these subjects, that they would consider the Christadelphian view as strange and erroneous.
Kind regards
Trevor
We may be a bit sparse in the U.S. or Canada, but there are eight meetings in my region in Australia, and we also have a dedicated Bible School for larger gatherings and our own private school in this region.
The article is a reasonably accurate assessment and a better standard than many who attempt to detail our beliefs. The rebuttal of our beliefs is fairly brief and in many instances simply states the conventional Evangelical position. To take two sentences out of a 28-page booklet that deals with a particular subject is by no means adequate, but may satisfy the average Evangelical or casual reader.
For example I consider that the booklet "The Blood of Christ" by Robert Roberts is one of the best on the subject, and he clearly advocates that in the Atonement Jesus is our Representative, not our Substitute. I am not sure if any Evangelical would give much thought to this concept. Similarly with such subjects as Heaven and Hell, Immortal Souls, Trinity and the Kingdom. Evangelicals are so locked up in their conventional view of these subjects, that they would consider the Christadelphian view as strange and erroneous.
Kind regards
Trevor
I do and I spread the gospel and preach on the streets too thing is they need saving too Mark 14:16
Could you clarify what you believe, is this statement accuracy:- 'We reject as unbiblical the idea that Christ could die as a replacement sacrifice for us, thus covering all our sins forever with that one act. Certainly it is through his sacrifice that we may be forgiven, but only if we walk the path of self-denial that he marked out for us.'
I do not u derstand how Jesus's death as a man could obtain forgiveness and how when the bible rejects the idea of earning salvation, one has to walk a path of self-denial?
Greetings again Who Me,
Genesis 3:17–19,22-23 (KJV): 17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life; 18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field; 19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.
22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: 23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
In other words, no immortal souls here. This mortality flowed on to all of Adam's descendants.
Jesus as a descendant of Adam, partook of this mortality and acknowledged God as righteous in submitting all mankind to disease, suffering and death. Jesus in partaking of our nature and its lusts, overcame sin at it's very source, and voluntarily submitted to suffering and death in acknowledgement of God's righteous judgement in the Garden. As a mortal and being open to the avarice of Jew and Gentile he was willing to submit to their cruelty. He suffered at the hand of these sinners, many aspects of the effects of sin and in a representative way, many of our sins. Jesus endured this and asked God for forgiveness for all that were involved. The end result nevertheless was that the very arrangement or law imposed in Eden, now found in Jesus a man that had never sinned, and as such the original sentence needed to be reversed and the grave could not hold him.
Here was a new condition of things, the opening in himself the way to eternal life, and blessing and fellowship for ever with His Father. This laid a foundation for all those that believe in what was accomplished in Jesus. The Scriptures ask us to believe in the righteousness of God thus revealed in Jesus, and our belief motivates us to be identified with Jesus in order to receive salvation and forgiveness. This identification involves water baptism and living the crucified and resurrected life.
Acts 8:5–6,12 (KJV): 5 Then Philip went down to the city of Samaria, and preached Christ unto them. 6 And the people with one accord gave heed unto those things which Philip spake, hearing and seeing the miracles which he did. 12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.
Galatians 2:20 (KJV): I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
Galatians 5:24 (KJV): And they that are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
Kind regards
Trevor
Perhaps this is off-topic with regards to the original title of the thread and I am also possibly not very qualified to give a simple clear answer. Yes, in general I agree with that statement. It would take a fair amount of exposition to consider this in a balanced and reasonably thorough way. The thinking on this subject in my fellowship has been initially forged by two booklets by Robert Roberts "The Blood of Christ" and "The Slain Lamb". As the Librarian of our meeting I have accumulated three different editions of these, issued over many years. Looking at the oldest, "The Blood of Christ" has 28 pages and "The Slain Lamb" has 24 pages. They were produced at different times to counter some extremes within our community, and in a scale of 1-10 each error was say "1" and "10" and in many respects we tolerate people expressing ideas in the range of say "2-9", but the two booklets represent say "4-6". But I would stress that all these views are different to accepted Protestant positions on the Atonement, and one major reason for the difference is that we believe that Jesus was a mortal human inheriting the effects of Adam's transgression, and another essential basis is that we reject the immortality of the soul and heaven going at death.
My particular approach to this may be different to how some would answer, but I prefer to lay a few foundations. Adam sinned, and as a result was sentenced to return to the dust:
Genesis 3:17–19,22-23 (KJV): 17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life; 18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field; 19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.
22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: 23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
In other words, no immortal souls here. This mortality flowed on to all of Adam's descendants.
Jesus as a descendant of Adam, partook of this mortality and acknowledged God as righteous in submitting all mankind to disease, suffering and death. Jesus in partaking of our nature and its lusts, overcame sin at it's very source, and voluntarily submitted to suffering and death in acknowledgement of God's righteous judgement in the Garden. As a mortal and being open to the avarice of Jew and Gentile he was willing to submit to their cruelty. He suffered at the hand of these sinners, many aspects of the effects of sin and in a representative way, many of our sins. Jesus endured this and asked God for forgiveness for all that were involved. The end result nevertheless was that the very arrangement or law imposed in Eden, now found in Jesus a man that had never sinned, and as such the original sentence needed to be reversed and the grave could not hold him.
Here was a new condition of things, the opening in himself the way to eternal life, and blessing and fellowship for ever with His Father. This laid a foundation for all those that believe in what was accomplished in Jesus. The Scriptures ask us to believe in the righteousness of God thus revealed in Jesus, and our belief motivates us to be identified with Jesus in order to receive salvation and forgiveness. This identification involves water baptism and living the crucified and resurrected life.
Acts 8:5–6,12 (KJV): 5 Then Philip went down to the city of Samaria, and preached Christ unto them. 6 And the people with one accord gave heed unto those things which Philip spake, hearing and seeing the miracles which he did. 12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.
Galatians 2:20 (KJV): I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
Galatians 5:24 (KJV): And they that are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
Kind regards
Trevor