Melchizidek

[Alabaster]

Alabaster,

An appearance (which is only an image in human form) doesn't wash feet nor eat. Correct? If they were only appearances, Abraham would have never offered to give them food to eat, nor water to wash their feet.

Offering water to wash their feet and food is an indication that they had been on a long journey on foot. That was a way to show hospitality in ancient times.

It is, therefore, clear that those men were physical, real people, and not simply appearances.

Also, if one would say they were angels sent from Heaven, then what necessity would they have to wash their feet or eat, since they had come from Heaven?

Yes, real angels in human form, with dirty feet and empty stomachs. Why would they not eat? Are you assigning some other-worldly characteristic to them that is baseld in religious thinking?

Since we know that Melchizedek was a High Priest, and we also know that Abraham paid tithes to him, then it stands to reason that there was a Church of God organized in Salem which was presided by Melchizedek, the High Priest of God.

That being true then, the best explanation is that God may well have chosen some righteous men from the church in Salem to deliver the message to Abraham. That is a much more credible and logical explanation then those of appearances. If we insist in saying that those men were only images, then we will need to explain why is it that those images had to wash their feet and eat food, appearances don't get tired or hungry.

Appearances of angels in human form with human attributes like hunger and fatigue and dirty feet is completely right. They came and were ministered to, which is often the case in scripture, and Hebrews helps that idea along in:

Hebrews 13:2 NKJV
Do not forget to entertain strangers, for by so doing some have unwittingly entertained angels.

In view of the above. None of those men were Jehova, because Jehova was only a Spirit which had not yet been born on the earth.

No one has said they were Jehovah. But some say, and it is worth accepting, that Melchizedek could easily have been the pre-incarnate Jesus, stepping into ancient history for God's specific purposes.

 

[mamre]

Yes, real angels in human form, with dirty feet and empty stomachs. Why would they not eat? Are you assigning some other-worldly characteristic to them that is baseld in religious thinking?

Appearances of angels in human form with human attributes like hunger and fatigue and dirty feet is completely right. They came and were ministered to, which is often the case in scripture, and Hebrews helps that idea along in:

Hebrews 13:2 NKJV
Do not forget to entertain strangers, for by so doing some have unwittingly entertained angels.



No one has said they were Jehovah. But some say, and it is worth accepting, that Melchizedek could easily have been the pre-incarnate Jesus, stepping into ancient history for God's specific purposes.

Alabaster,
You said:

Are you assigning some other-worldly characteristic to them that is baseld in religious thinking?

Not sure what you mean by the above. But, I am using only what I read in the Bible to base my comments on. As you can well see in a previous post, I gave the basis for eliminating the possibility of those men be only spirits or simply images, using a quote from Jesus. I mentioned that Jesus Himself said that a spirit has no flesh and bone. Since those men washed their feet and ate, no matter where they came from, by necessity, they had to be physical beings.

Your words:

In Genesis 18, three men appear to Abraham. It is apparent that one of them is Jehovah (the other two are probably angels), since the text actually says so (v. 13)."

Since Jehovah was not of flesh and bones at the time, (I cite the scriptures: Genesis says that in the beginning the "Spirit" of God was over the face of the abyss) He could not have been one of the three men.


So, these men could have come from of either of two places, or a combination of them:
1. They could have been physical angels, with glorified bodies of flesh and bones coming directly from Heaven, somehow disguised as normal mortal men.
or
2. They could have been normal mortal saints sent from Salem where the Church of God was established with Melchizedek being its High Priest and King, in a special mission to visit Abraham.
or
3. A combination of both of the above.

The other thing we need to consider also is that the word "Angel" is widely used in the scriptures to mean "Messenger." As a matter of fact, the vast majority of angels that appear in the scriptures are in connection with some sort of a message. I ask the same question to you: "Are you assigning some other-worldly characteristics to the messengers that visited Abraham, which are not founded on the scriptures?

mamre

 

[Alabaster]

Alabaster,
You said:

Not sure what you mean by the above. But, I am using only what I read in the Bible to base my comments on. As you can well see in a previous post, I gave the basis for eliminating the possibility of those men be only spirits or simply images, using a quote from Jesus. I mentioned that Jesus Himself said that a spirit has no flesh and bone. Since those men washed their feet and ate, no matter where they came from, by necessity, they had to be physical beings.

Your words:


Since Jehovah was not of flesh and bones at the time, (I cite the scriptures: Genesis says that in the beginning the "Spirit" of God was over the face of the abyss) He could not have been one of the three men.


So, these men could have come from of either of two places, or a combination of them:
1. They could have been physical angels, with glorified bodies of flesh and bones coming directly from Heaven, somehow disguised as normal mortal men.
or
2. They could have been normal mortal saints sent from Salem where the Church of God was established with Melchizedek being its High Priest and King, in a special mission to visit Abraham.
or
3. A combination of both of the above.

The other thing we need to consider also is that the word "Angel" is widely used in the scriptures to mean "Messenger." As a matter of fact, the vast majority of angels that appear in the scriptures are in connection with some sort of a message. I ask the same question to you: "Are you assigning some other-worldly characteristics to the messengers that visited Abraham, which are not founded on the scriptures?

mamre

These men were flesh and blood and angels at the same time. Angels do that, you know.

 

[mamre]

These men were flesh and blood and angels at the same time. Angels do that, you know.

Therefore, they were not Jehovah, nor only images (appearances).
Like I said before, Angels are messengers. So, any messenger with a true message from God is an Angel. It could be some members of the church in Salem, or it could be some messengers sent from Heaven, but they were not only image.

mamre

 

[Alabaster]

Therefore, they were not Jehovah, nor only images (appearances).
Like I said before, Angels are messengers. So, any messenger with a true message from God is an Angel. It could be some members of the church in Salem, or it could be some messengers sent from Heaven, but they were not only image.

mamre

Not images. Real, physical forms.

 

[cyberjosh]

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year!

With all due respect. That Melchizedek is the "pre-incarnate Jesus" is not found in the scriptures. That is not a Christian doctrine. That has never been taught by God.

Besides, what does that mean, to be pre-incarnate? We are born upon this earth ONCE. Jesus is the prime example of a perfect man. Therefore being an example to the rest of us precludes the idea of being born more than once. Nevertheless, He, nor His Father have never taught anything about pre-incarnation.

mamre

Early Church Fathers believed Melchizedek to be pre-incarnate Jesus, I'm fairly certain that's where the idea came from in the first place. I'm not sure exactly which ones wrote about that topic though, you would have to do a little research to figure out who the first one to write about the idea was and see what their reasons were for believing so. The Church Fathers obviously are not infallible but not all their ideas of figures, types, and actual pre-incarnate appearances of Jesus in the OT were bogus either.

 

[cyberjosh]

Alabaster,

An appearance (which is only an image in human form) doesn't wash feet nor eat. Correct? If they were only appearances, Abraham would have never offered to give them food to eat, nor water to wash their feet.

Offering water to wash their feet and food is an indication that they had been on a long journey on foot. That was a way to show hospitality in ancient times.

Mamre,

You of all people, due to your screen name, should remember that it was at the Oak of Mamre where YHWH and two angels appeared before Abraham and Abraham had Sarah prepare a meal which they all ate. Neither God nor angels are mortal yet they ate:

"6 So Abraham hurried into the tent to Sarah. “Quick,” he said, “get three seahsof the finest flour and knead it and bake some bread.”
7 Then he ran to the herd and selected a choice, tender calf and gave it to a servant, who hurried to prepare it. 8 He then brought some curds and milk and the calf that had been prepared, and set these before them. While they ate, he stood near them under a tree." (Genesis 18:6-8)

Just pointing that out. Jesus in pre-incarnate appearances would not be an appiration but in actual corporeal form. I'm not sure if that was the point you were making or not.

God Bless,

~Josh

 

[cyberjosh]

In that case, according to Gen 18:4-8, none of the three men that washed their feet and ate what Abraham prepared to them were Jehova. A pre-flesh (pre-incarnate) person, that is, a spirit doesn't eat or drink and has no need to wash his feet. See Luke 24:39 where Jesus states that a spirit has no flesh and bones. Therefore, it was not Jehova (or Jesus) who visited Abraham personally, because, as you have said yourself Jesus was still a Spirit (in your word, pre-incarnate).

Ah, I see your argument now. This is perhaps a semantics game though. By pre-incarnate we generally refer to Jesus coming in the flesh when He was born of a virgin. The cosmic event of the Logos becoming flesh is something profound and unique, not simply refering to Jesus taking on corporeal form (which God - generally refering to the Father in most cases - had done several times already in the OT), which some Gnostic sects would hold to (corporeal in form only but not actually/truly of the flesh), but a very unique process of becoming one with mankind to partake of our very nature - of which the virgin birth was not an insignificant part.

Food for thought.