Missing link to Abraham?

[BenJasher]

Ben
Are you giving us the evil eye :wink:

Nah! I was winkin' at ya. Sorta kin to flirting, but not quite the same. It's a friendly geature, whatever it means. :wink:

 

[unred typo]

No, no references. I only know through my studies that the Hebrews were great storytellers and were sticklers for detail and accuracy. I also understand that much of what they taught was passed on through oral tradition.

Hmm, modern theologians? I guess the key word there is modern. ;-) I assume modern is an arcronym for liberal. 8-)

I don’t think the ones who believe that Abram was chosen by God without any merit on Abram’s part would consider themselves liberal. Calvinist or Reformed maybe, but hardly liberal. How about you, Vic? Do you believe that Abram was chosen because of any worth of his own life that pleased God? :smt102

 

[Vic C.]

I don’t think the ones who believe that Abram was chosen by God without any merit on Abram’s part would consider themselves liberal. Calvinist or Reformed maybe, but hardly liberal. How about you, Vic? Do you believe that Abram was chosen because of any worth of his own life that pleased God? :smt102

LOL, I went of on a tangent. The first thing that came to mind were the modern scholars who insist on dating the first five books at a date way, way later than most do.

As for your latest question, you know by now what I believe, or don't believe, so I will leave it at that... for now. ;-)

 

[BenJasher]

Well, being a Baptist, and therefore at least partially Calvinist, you will most likely agree that God probably did choose Abram for no other reason aside from His own sovereignty. Correct? It certainly had nothing to do with what Abram had or had not done, or knew. Right?

Unred, what makes you think Abram had anything to do with his being chosen by God? That would reduce sovereign election to the level of a reward; to that of wages earned for services rendered.

No. His sovereign election is a gift. The scriptures say that "Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him as righteousness." But that was after the fact of Abraham walking in his election, and after the fact of his calling out of the land of Ur of the Chaldees. Not before. The scriptures also tell us that "The gift of God is age-abiding life." Please note that it is a gift. It isn't wages nor is it a reward. It is a gift.

Abraham was God's friend. But that was stated of him as he walked out his life in the election and foreknowledge of God, not beforehand.

I would interested in reviewing any evidence indicating that Abraham had done or not done anything that placed him in a favorable position to receive a calling from God.

 

[Gabbylittleangel]

There is nothing that says prophets travel into the future......
.... Have you ever read Jasher, Gabby?

No, unred, I have never read Jasher. I have had visions, as well as many other experiences with the Lord that many would not believe.

 

[Oscar3]

No, unred, I have never read Jasher. I have had visions, as well as many other experiences with the Lord that many would not believe.

Like what Gabby? What type and kind of visions?

 

[unred typo]

Unred, what makes you think Abram had anything to do with his being chosen by God? That would reduce sovereign election to the level of a reward; to that of wages earned for services rendered.

No. His sovereign election is a gift. The scriptures say that "Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him as righteousness." But that was after the fact of Abraham walking in his election, and after the fact of his calling out of the land of Ur of the Chaldees. Not before. The scriptures also tell us that "The gift of God is age-abiding life." Please note that it is a gift. It isn't wages nor is it a reward. It is a gift.

Abraham was God's friend. But that was stated of him as he walked out his life in the election and foreknowledge of God, not beforehand.

I would interested in reviewing any evidence indicating that Abraham had done or not done anything that placed him in a favorable position to receive a calling from God.

Where does it say that the reward given to Abram was a gift? Abraham believed God and as a reward, God imputed to him righteousness. The gift of eternal life is through the blood of Christ. It is not given except by repentance. It is a gift because God is not in any way required to give the blood of his Son to enable anyone to receive eternal life, no matter how good and obedient they are. It is not the eternal life that is the real gift, anyway. It is the blood that cleanses our sin that is the gift.

If you wanted to build a house, and I freely give you all the plans, all the materials and all the tools, would the house be a free gift? Yes, you did not pay for the house materials/tools/plans. The house materials/tools/plans is the gift. Building the house is not, but if you take the materials/tools/plans and build the house, you could say that the house is a gift from me through the materials/tools/plans I gave. When you finish building the house, can you boast that you bought the house yourself? No, you didn’t pay a cent. Did you earn the materials by your building of the house? No, you were given the materials before you built it, but if you didn’t build it, it would be your own fault that you didn‘t have a house.

We have the materials/tools/plans for eternal life. The teaching of Christ, the blood of Christ, and leading of the Holy Spirit are the materials/tools/plans we have been given, freely and without cost.

When God gave David the victory, did he still have to fight the battle? God gives us the victory over sin, but we must wage the war ourselves and he will reward us with the winning results.
:smt006

 

[Gabbylittleangel]

Like what Gabby? What type and kind of visions?

Nothing that I feel I can share here, oscar. Mostly things concerning people that I 'associate' with. Often the visions that the Lord has given were an invitation to pray. He would show me things that would come to pass, but could be changed through prayer. Now and then I seem to walk in and out of visions (for lack of a better description).

 

[mutzrein]

Oscar - the Lord uses many different means to speak to His children. Dreams, visions, scripture, direct conversation, prayer, personal visitation and so on. And I have found, depending on the gifts God has given us, that some are personal and some are for (or relate to) others in the body of Christ.

 

[Oscar3]

Nothing that I feel I can share here, oscar. Mostly things concerning people that I 'associate' with. Often the visions that the Lord has given were an invitation to pray. He would show me things that would come to pass, but could be changed through prayer. Now and then I seem to walk in and out of visions (for lack of a better description).

Fair enough. For the record I very much believe in these types of gifts as these are also sighns of being filled with the Holy Spirit.

 

[mutzrein]

Fair enough. For the record I very much believe in these types of gifts as these are also signs of being filled with the Holy Spirit.

Ah, well there we differ. I don't see these things as signs (in themselves) of being filled with the Holy Spirit. It is the fruit of the Spirit that determines whether one has the Holy Spirit.

 

[BenJasher]

Where does it say that the reward given to Abram was a gift? Abraham believed God and as a reward, God imputed to him righteousness. The gift of eternal life is through the blood of Christ. It is not given except by repentance. {BenJasher says If it is a gift, and if it can only be given to someone who repents, that means that Jesus died for only a few people. Do I understand you rightly?}It is a gift because God is not in any way required to give the blood of his Son to enable anyone to receive eternal life, no matter how good and obedient they are. It is not the eternal life that is the real gift, anyway. It is the blood that cleanses our sin that is the gift.{Benjasher asks: Yes. But is that what the scriptures say? It plainly says that the blood of Jesus cleanses us from sin. It also unequivocally states that without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin. None of that is being questioned. BUT the scriptures also clearly indicate that the gift of God is age-abiding life.}

If you wanted to build a house, and I freely give you all the plans, all the materials and all the tools, would the house be a free gift? Yes, you did not pay for the house materials/tools/plans. The house materials/tools/plans is the gift. Building the house is not, but if you take the materials/tools/plans and build the house, you could say that the house is a gift from me through the materials/tools/plans I gave. When you finish building the house, can you boast that you bought the house yourself? No, you didn’t pay a cent. Did you earn the materials by your building of the house? No, you were given the materials before you built it, but if you didn’t build it, it would be your own fault that you didn‘t have a house.{BenJasher says: Two things wrong here: 1) What you describe here is a works based salvation. I can quote several scripture off the top of my head that counters that thought. 2)The same argument can be used in favor of what you are arguing against. As a matter of fact, there are instances in the scripture where God did all the work and then let man freely enjoy the benefits of what He had done. The Battle of Jehoshaphat is but one example. There are others. In the life, death, crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus, God did all the work. Man had nothing to do with it. Afterwards, the gifts that came about as a result of what was done were given freely to man. Not just a few men, but all men. It had nothing to do with what we have or have not done.}

We have the materials/tools/plans for eternal life.{BenJasher says:NO. We have the gift of age-abiding life} The teaching of Christ, the blood of Christ, and leading of the Holy Spirit are the materials/tools/plans we have been given, freely and without cost.{BenJasher says: Yes. And that means they are a gift.}

When God gave David the victory, did he still have to fight the battle? God gives us the victory over sin, but we must wage the war ourselves and he will reward us with the winning results.

 

[unred typo]

{BenJasher says If it is a gift, and if it can only be given to someone who repents, that means that Jesus died for only a few people. Do I understand you rightly?}

The blood is a gift. It is available for all. It only effectively used by those who repent and confess. Do you think those who don’t repent are washed of their sins and forgiven?


.{Benjasher asks: Yes. But is that what the scriptures say? It plainly says that the blood of Jesus cleanses us from sin. It also unequivocally states that without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin. None of that is being questioned. BUT the scriptures also clearly indicate that the gift of God is age-abiding life.}

That is exactly what I am trying to show is that God offers the forgiveness through the blood by repentance and that blood is your salvation, your gift of eternal life. It is eternal life through the blood and your repentance of sins is how the blood becomes applied. Without the blood, there could be no forgiveness or eternal life even if you repented and did good deeds all your days, it would do no good without the blood having been shed for sins. The blood is the gift. It is free and nothing needs to be added to it to reverse the curse of our sin.

The blood is applied to the sins that we confess and forsake. We must walk in the way of eternal life and eternal life is the reward for obedience to Christ. That’s what it means when it says the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. If we haven’t made him our Lord, he isn’t our Savior.

Repentance of sin is obedience to Christ. When we repent of lying, we are not going to ever willingly choose to lie. If we say we have repented of lying, and then continue to lie, we haven’t really repented, have we? Once I over indulged in sushi and it made me ill. I repented of sushi and I don’t ever want to eat that again. I don’t even want to see it. Blech. The same is true of sin. When you repent of sin it is distasteful to you, and you are repulsed by it. If you still are tempted by it, you need to pray that God will reveal it’s nasty ugliness so you will resist it as if it would make you deathly sick. He can do that. There are times that he will intervene and carry you, but we are commanded to resist the devil, and to follow Christ. Yes, there are works involved, but they are works of faith in the blood and in the way Jesus taught us to live. There still will not be any way we could boast that we saved ourselves without the blood.

 

[BenJasher]

You still seem to be slightly confused.
The blood wasn't the gift, it was a sacrifice. Age-abiding life is the gift. Otherwise the scriptures don't know what they are talking about.

The wages (payment received for services rendered) of sin is death. But the gift of God is eternal (actually, and literally age-abiding) life

Age abiding life is the gift that was purchased with the blood that was shed.

Repentance of sin is changing your lifestyle. The word actually means changing your mind. Obedience is another thing. It is a very good thing. But obedience and repentance are two very different very good things.

For the sake of clarity, let's not confuse things by overlooking the tiny details. We can be overzealous to be devout, and get really confused in the process, and not even be aware of it. And it has the subtle trap of becoming a thing of pride. We get to the point of being proud of how devout we are. I have seen it become a self-feeding cycle where the zeal to be devout results in a subtle pride, and that pride feeds a need to be zealously devout. But when this is happening, you don't think of things in these terms. If you aren't careful, you will crash land when God finally brings you back to earth.

There still will not be any way we could boast that we saved ourselves without the blood.

Not quite:

You are saved by grace through faith. And that doesn't even come from yourself. It is a gift from God so that no man can boast.

God has sealed us us up in unbelief, that He may have mercy upon us all.

You are either confused, or you don't read the same Bible I do.

 

[BenJasher]

Let's stop kicking a dead horse. All that is accomplished by kicking a dead horse is that you get your shoes dirty.

Our God is a gift Giving God. He gives gifts liberally wherever He may choose to do so. Sometimes there are strings attached. And sometimes there are no strings attached. But tha has served to only take us off topic.

I too have read the Upright Record. I have also read the Book of Enoch (Burton) and several other extra-canonicals. Also the Apocrypha, but not as much. But so what? I also am convinced that the "original language" wasn't Hebrew and Greek, but Aramaic.

There is plenty of good circumstantial evidence for the Aramaic Bible. But once again; So what?

I did have a linear chart that I had done on the Patriarchs like I mentioned at the beginning of this thread. I can't find it for some reason. But if my memory serves me rightly, Abraham was 100 years old when Noah passed away. But I could be wrong there. But Abraham and Noah very easily could have known each other. Jasher claims that Abram lived with Noah and Shem for 40 years. If this is true, this is very likely the place where he learned the ways of God and the genealogy of his people. Abram then passed this information down to his sons for them to pass down to theirs.

 

[unred typo]

You still seem to be slightly confused.
The blood wasn't the gift, it was a sacrifice. Age-abiding life is the gift. Otherwise the scriptures don't know what they are talking about.

The wages (payment received for services rendered) of sin is death. But the gift of God is eternal (actually, and literally age-abiding) life

You left off the end of Romans 6:23. The gift is through Jesus Christ, our Lord. You can’t just drop the most important part of the verse. The gift technically was his Son, if you want to be exact according to the Bible. John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave everlasting life? No, he gave his only begotten son, that whosoever believes in him (literally, in his message from God) should not perish but have everlasting life.†I think we can agree that the blood of his only begotten Son is the true gift. As you yourself quoted, without the blood there is no remission of sins. Now if you want to be coy, you can say, he gave his life, his body, or that his sacrifice is the gift, but ‘the blood’ is an acceptable biblical expression for all those. Eternal life is the hopeful outcome, the ‘blessed hope.’

Hebrews 5:1-8
“1For every high priest taken from among men is ordained for men in things pertaining to God, that he may offer both gifts and sacrifices for sins: (what is the gift that the priest offers? The blood is the gift) ….8Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him; Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec.†What was the offering that Jesus, as our high priest, gave for our sin?

If you want to be really specific, I guess you could say God gave his Son who gave his body, so that his life’s blood could be payment for our sin, not of works lest any man should boast, but that all may come to repentance and by obedience to Christ inherit eternal life. A careful reading of the Bible will show that to be the case.

Your tweaked version of Ephesians 2:8-9 needs correction. The “You are saved by grace through faith. And that doesn't even come from yourself. It is a gift from God so that no man can boast.†should be that “this salvation is not coming from yourselves, it is a gift of God so that no man can boast.†God didn’t have to save any one of us. To give us a chance to be perfect in his sight is a gift. Think about it. If someone GIVES you a chance to be saved, isn’t that a gift? You’re looking a gift horse in the mouth. Your horse may be dead but mine is still alive and kicking back, so don't even think of abusing it.

The topic was put out to explore the idea that Abraham was chosen, not randomly, for no reason, but specifically because he had been taught about God, understood what he heard and eventually embraced and worshipped the creator as the one true God. Jasher shows this plainly but Genesis doesn’t fill in the particulars of how he came to know God. One could deduce (as you, I and others have done,) that since he was contemporary with Noah and Shem, he could have learned from them. This puts our discussion of what are works of faith and what is the gift of pure grace right on target. Not to worry…the OP is mine. :wink:

:-D

 

[BenJasher]

You still don't get it do you? I prefer to try as much as is practicable to stay within the confines of what is said in the scriptures without taking the liberty of interpreting for myself what that may mean.

For God so loved the world that he gave everlasting life? No, he gave his only begotten son, that whosoever believes in him (literally, in his message from God) should not perish but have everlasting life.†I think we can agree that the blood of his only begotten Son is the true gift.

Why say things that aren't there to say? Why put words into someone's mouth? That is the beginning of error. The only thing we can be sure of in this discussion is that Age-abiding life is what is referred to as a gift. His Blood is nowhere referred to as a gift. Jesus Himself, in that God gave Him could be possibly construed as a gift. But the only item in this litany of confusion that is specifically referred to as a gift is Age-abiding life.

Your tweaked version of Ephesians 2:8-9 needs correction. The “You are saved by grace through faith. And that doesn't even come from yourself. It is a gift from God so that no man can boast.†should be that “this salvation is not coming from yourselves, it is a gift of God so that no man can boast.†God didn’t have to save any one of us.

That is true. He didn't have to save any of us. As a matter of fact, there is implication in at least one scripture I know of that He actually considered destroying the whole thing, rather than tying to straighten it out.

To give us a chance to be perfect in his sight is a gift. Think about it. If someone GIVES you a chance to be saved, isn’t that a gift?

Yes, the chance would be a gift in that light. But God didn't base the Plan of the Ages on chance. He knows the end from the beginning. He knew how it would turn out before He started. He doesn't rely on chance. And neither does your salvation. Your salvation is firmly anchored in the solid rock of the finished work of the Cross, and the goodness of God. Chance had nothing to do with it.

You’re looking a gift horse in the mouth. Your horse may be dead but mine is still alive and kicking back, so don't even think of abusing it.

The abuse has not yet begun. :-D

 

[unred typo]

You still don't get it do you? I prefer to try as much as is practicable to stay within the confines of what is said in the scriptures without taking the liberty of interpreting for myself what that may mean.

How in the world can you read without taking the liberty of interpreting for yourself what that may mean? Your brain isn’t operating in a sealed vacuum, is it? You will either interpret it by your own understanding or someone else’s. You think I’m just making up stuff without trying to stay within what is written? The problem comes when you try to reconcile what is written here with what is written there in the same Bible. I feel the way I read it does that and if you do, great. Don’t think you’re the only one.

Why say things that aren't there to say? Why put words into someone's mouth? That is the beginning of error. The only thing we can be sure of in this discussion is that Age-abiding life is what is referred to as a gift. His Blood is nowhere referred to as a gift. Jesus Himself, in that God gave Him could be possibly construed as a gift. But the only item in this litany of confusion that is specifically referred to as a gift is Age-abiding life.

Litany of confusion? I quoted John 3:16! I thought you would be able to see from it that the gift of God is his only begotten Son. God gave his Son. That is the gift, and he gave his blood. By this blood we can have eternal life. The verse says that those who believe in him should have everlasting life. Do you think belief means something other than believing? What does it mean when it says that Abraham believed God? Isn’t that the example of the faith that we are supposed to have? How is that different from believing in Christ? You think we should believe in Christ but not in what he says to do in order to be saved?

Yes, the chance would be a gift in that light. But God didn't base the Plan of the Ages on chance. He knows the end from the beginning. He knew how it would turn out before He started. He doesn't rely on chance. And neither does your salvation. Your salvation is firmly anchored in the solid rock of the finished work of the Cross, and the goodness of God. Chance had nothing to do with it.

OK, let’s change that inappropriate word from ‘chance’ to ‘opportunity’. Behold opportunity stands at the door and knocks. You have the opportunity given to you to be saved. It is a gift. If I give you a scholarship to a great rock solid college, have I given you a gift? Have I given you an education? Have I given you a career? The college is rock solid, the learning is available, the books are finished, but you still must apply your mind, body and soul to gain what was freely given you or throw it away.

The abuse has not yet begun. :-D

Bring it on! If my theology doesn’t hold up under pressure, I don’t want it. Give me something that works.
:-D

 

[BenJasher]

I tell ya what!

You just go on injecting your own meaning into what you read. That is a natural human tendency. It comes about because we learn to read so close to the time we learn to speak. (well, most of us learn to read, anyway)

Did you know that in most people, both reading speed and comprehension go up significantly when they learn to do two things as they read:
1) Stop pronouncing those words in their head as they read something.
2) Stop interpreting things as they read something.

That last part may confuse you. I'll take a portion of John 3:16 as an example to demonstrate. Here is how most people read:

"For God [{in their mind they pronounce the words For God}and at the same instance, unconsciously they interpret God to mean the Supreme Being, seated on a cloud high up in the heavens looking down on Creation] so loved the world[{they say the words in their mind} and think of the planet earth wrapped in warm fuzzy thoughts].

All of this process that we are taught as children is unnecessary, and it drastically slows down the reading and absorption of information. Your mind is a miracle of creation. It is capable of much more than we give it credit for. You will notice a remarkable increase in reading speed when you quit pronouncing the words in your mind as you read. Your comprehension of what you read will jump when you quit interpreting everything as you read. Your mind is completely capable of absorbing and comprehending what we read if we just turn it loose and quit trying to help it do its job.

It takes practice to get used to. The results are immediate.

And that, class, is the sum total of everything you would learn in a good speed reading course. Trust me, I am a graduate of the course.

I am not going to argue with you past this point. Argue with someone else. We had agreement as long as we were talking about the book of Jasher.

 

[unred typo]

Well, Benjasher, I see what you mean by “The abuse has not yet begun.†:-D I didn’t expect a speed reading commercial. Sorry, old school here. I like to engage my brain and think through what I read. I would rather read ten words I understand than ten pages that I mentally mass stockpiled. I find that John 3:16 says what it says just fine. You didn’t say what you think it means, if you even do think about what you read. I notice that you don’t answer questions.

I didn’t consider our discussion an argument. Just because I don’t agree with your point of view doesn’t mean I’m arguing with you about it. You haven’t really had a chance to explain yourself so most of my last post was exploring your storehouse of biblical knowledge but if you don’t wish to, that’s fine.

How did you like Jasher?