Muslims & Catholics, "adore the one, merciful God?&

[JM]

Can someone explain what this means?

839 "Those who have not yet received the Gospel are related to the People of God in various ways."[325] The relationship of the Church with the Jewish People. When she delves into her own mystery, the Church, the People of God in the New Covenant, discovers her link with the Jewish People,[326] "the first to hear the Word of God."[327] The Jewish faith, unlike other non-Christian religions, is already a response to God's revelation in the Old Covenant. To the Jews "belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ",[328] "for the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable."[329]

840 And when one considers the future, God's People of the Old Covenant and the new People of God tend towards similar goals: expectation of the coming (or the return) of the Messiah. But one awaits the return of the Messiah who died and rose from the dead and is recognized as Lord and Son of God; the other awaits the coming of a Messiah, whose features remain hidden till the end of time; and the latter waiting is accompanied by the drama of not knowing or of misunderstanding Christ Jesus.

841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day." [330]

842 The Church's bond with non-Christian religions is in the first place the common origin and end of the human race: All nations form but one community. This is so because all stem from the one stock which God created to people the entire earth, and also because all share a common destiny, namely God. His providence, evident goodness, and saving designs extend to all against the day when the elect are gathered together in the holy city. . .[331]

843 "The Catholic Church recognizes in other religions that search, among shadows and images, for the God who is unknown yet near since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved. Thus, the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as 'a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life.'

Catechism of the Catholic Church

 

[stray bullet]

What about it? The plan includes Muslims- that doesn't mean Muslims will be saved.

They do worship the God of Abraham.

 

[JM]

What about it? The plan includes Muslims- that doesn't mean Muslims will be saved.

They do worship the God of Abraham.

Ok, thanks.

 

[francisdesales]

The Church has always considered that "non-Christians" could potentially be saved by the Spirit who blows where He will. Consider this:

"God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him." 1 John 4:16

And

"He that hath the Son hath life; [and] he that hath not the Son of God hath not life". 1 John 5:12

Since a person cannot love without God, a person who displays REAL love towards another, sacrificial love, MUST have the Spirit residing within them.

Regards

 

[thessalonian]

It's a good and legitimate question and not an easy one to understand. On the one hand the Church says "no salvation outside the Church". Then on the other there are these paragraphs. Even for Catholics reconciling these two theologies is difficult and hard to understand admittedly. But why should the things of God all be easy to understand. Peter tells us of Paul that some things are in fact hard to understand and are distorted by those who wish to malign the true faith. I think these paragraphs are particulary hard for Protestants because many see salvatoin as a one or a zero. Totally depraved or not. In some sense that is true. I.e. at that particular momement a person may go to hell if they died. But God and his servants may be laying a seedbed that germinates later.

I like to site Cornelius as the best bibilcal example of what the Church means here. (there are others, good Samaritan, three wise men, Jews). Does one have to have a completely correct theologically correct opinion of God to worship the one true God? Well Cornelius was not a Jew or Christian. I have little doudt that he did not know whether there was a trinity or if Jesus had one will or two, whether he was divine or human or both before Peter came to him. The scriptures don't even tell us that Peter explained the trinity to him while he was there, though he may have. Now the question is did Corenlius worship the one true God when he offered his daily sacrifices and prayers? We are not told whether Cornelius was or was not "saved" prior to Peter's preaching. God heard his prayer. He was a "God fearing and righteous man". Yet it also says that Peter brought salvation to him. Now for us Catholics this may be a life of grace through the sacraments in which Cornelius would persevere in his righteousness and grow in holiness, that he may not fall from grace. This does not make sense in the Once Saved Always Saved context. In that mindset Cornelius must have been among the damned. But it doesn't fit. See Acts 10 and 11 for scripture.

Now for the Moslems. Romans 2:14-16 tells us that all men have the laws written on their hearts. One part of the law is the desire to worship the one true God. To have no other God's before him. Men have a natural desire to seek God and nature cries out to his glory.

ACts 17

24: The God who made the world and everything in it, being Lord of heaven and earth, does not live in shrines made by man,
25: nor is he served by human hands, as though he needed anything, since he himself gives to all men life and breath and everything.
26: And he made from one every nation of men to live on all the face of the earth, having determined allotted periods and the boundaries of their habitation,
27: that they should seek God, in the hope that they might feel after him and find him. Yet he is not far from each one of us, 28: for `In him we live and move and have our being'; as even some of your poets have said, `For we are indeed his offspring.'
29: Being then God's offspring, we ought not to think that the Deity is like gold, or silver, or stone, a representation by the art and imagination of man.

Now Paul is stating this to pagan Athenians in context. That men seek after God and that they might find him. It is quite clear that some men were intened to find God. Though it does not seem likely that they would know him in the trinitarian form that we know him, as he has been revealed to us in the fullness of time. The true nature of God is a revealed thing. Most certainly as well their concept of God will have errors, that have been brought about by influences of their societies. Just as the Koran and the thinking of the Moselm world injects false ideas in to the God that the average moselm desires in his heart to know and worship. This corruption is why false teaches are so damnable in Peter's and Pauls writings. But the question is are there some Cornelius's who God desires to save and who are in that limbo state of Cornelius that we cannot make a definitive statement on. Those who are doing their best to follow God according to the laws written on their hearts and who desire to known and worship and adore the one true God. Most certainly in my mind their are. I do not judge them but try to lead them down the path that Peter and Paul led them. To a full knowledge of who that God is that they so desire to know. Let's forcus more time on that and less on condemning them for what they may be in ignorance of.

Blessings

 

[JM]

Those who don't believe are condemned already...is what the Bible teaches on this subject. Thess, I find this teaching most troubling, that people can be saved without belief in Christ. The law on their hearts is there to condemn them for their unbelief, no one is saved by their own works.

Peace,

jm

 

[stray bullet]

Those who don't believe are condemned already...is what the Bible teaches on this subject. Thess, I find this teaching most troubling, that people can be saved without belief in Christ. The law on their hearts is there to condemn them for their unbelief, no one is saved by their own works.

Peace,

jm

I don't think anyone teaches that you are saved by your own works.

You say people can't be saved without belief in Christ. Do you believe that? If so, you must believe that the mentally ill will go to hell. That babies and children will go to hell.

If they can be saved without belief in Christ, then who else can? We don't know, only God does.

 

[JM]

First thing I thought of was Gen. 18:19 For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him.

Outside of the Covenant no one is saved, so what hope does the heathen have? The Bible doesn't tell us they have a hope at all.


"Most Calvinistic theologians have held that those who die in infancy are saved. The Scriptures seem to teach plainly enough that the children of believers are saved; but they are silent or practically so in regard to those of the heathens. The Westminster Confession does not pass judgment on the children of heathens who die before coming to years of accountability. Where the Scriptures are silent, the Confession, too, preserves silence. Our outstanding theologians, however, mindful of the fact that God's "tender mercies are over all His works," and depending on His mercy widened as broadly as possible, have entertained a charitable hope that since these infants have never committed any actual sin themselves, their inherited sin would be pardoned and they would be saved on wholly evangelical principles." The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination, by Loraine Boettner, Eleventh Printing, The Presbyterian and Reformed Publishing Company, Philadelphia, PA 1963 435 pages.

http://www.reformed.org/calvinism/in..._boettner.html

How wide do you think is the narrow road is? Does the Muslim and Buddhist lack the ability to believe? Yes. They are dead in sin until regenerated. Has everyone heard the Gospel? No. This is God's providence...unless you're saying people can be saved without the saving work of Christ?

 

[Lewis]

Those who don't believe are condemned already...is what the Bible teaches on this subject. Thess, I find this teaching most troubling, that people can be saved without belief in Christ. The law on their hearts is there to condemn them for their unbelief, no one is saved by their own works.

Peace,

jm

I don't think anyone teaches that you are saved by your own works.

You say people can't be saved without belief in Christ. Do you believe that? If so, you must believe that the mentally ill will go to hell. That babies and children will go to hell.

If they can be saved without belief in Christ, then who else can? We don't know, only God does.

First of all God would not send retarded people and babies to hell, if it is beyond them to learn of Christ. We have a just and righteous God.

 

[stray bullet]

So what about a man that died in North America before the 11th Century?

 

[JM]

[quote="stray bullet":de7e4]

Those who don't believe are condemned already...is what the Bible teaches on this subject. Thess, I find this teaching most troubling, that people can be saved without belief in Christ. The law on their hearts is there to condemn them for their unbelief, no one is saved by their own works.

Peace,

jm

I don't think anyone teaches that you are saved by your own works.

You say people can't be saved without belief in Christ. Do you believe that? If so, you must believe that the mentally ill will go to hell. That babies and children will go to hell.

If they can be saved without belief in Christ, then who else can? We don't know, only God does.

First of all God would not send retarded people and babies to hell, if it is beyond them to learn of Christ. We have a just and righteous God.[/quote:de7e4]

Prove that from Scripture. The only hope we have is for the retarded and infants that die IF they are children of believers, the Scripture are silent about the heathen.

 

[JM]

So what about a man that died in North America before the 11th Century?

If that man didn't know Christ, then that man died in his sin.

"Now when they had gone through Phrygia and the region of Galatia, they were forbidden by the Holy Spirit to preach the word in Asia" (Acts 16:6)

What about the man that died in Asia where the word was forbidden to be preacher? I believe it's God's will, you believe what? That they are saved by some other means?

:wink:

 

[francisdesales]

the Scripture are silent about the heathen

Well, it depends what you mean by "heathen". Romans 2 clearly tells us that a doer of the law will be justified, even that man who was not given the written Law of Moses, but rather, the Law written on one's heart. We Catholics call this "natural" law, as everyone has a very general idea of what is right and what is wrong. God will not hold everyone to the same standards, as to those given much, more will be expected.

As I said to you in the post regarding the Sovereign Will of God on Semi-Pelagianism, God desires men to seek Him out. Man has been created with a deep inner desire to seek God. The Psalms have many such verses. This does NOT just apply to Jews! We ALL seek out our higher calling and purpose in life. We ALL ask those pivotal questions about life - and we only find the answers in God.

"without faith [it is] impossible to please [him]: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and [that] he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him." Heb 11:6



Christ is not bound by the visible confines of the Catholic Church. The Spirit blows where He will. The Spirit gives "knowledge" of God. And what is important to note is what this knowledge consists of... It is not intellectual knowledge of the life and times of Jesus of Nazareth. It is experiential knowledge of the God, who IS love. Since we will know someone by their fruits, when we see the Spirit working through a person to enable him to love, really love, we know that Jesus abides in that person. He said without Him, we can do nothing good.

This is the formula for salvation:

"He that hath the Son hath life; [and] he that hath not the Son of God hath not life." John 5:12

While not normative, we would say that God can and does go to "non-Christians" and abide in a diligent seeker of the God of Love.

If that man didn't know Christ, then that man died in his sin.

I agree, but our definition of "knowledge" is probably different. When a person loves, a love that gives totally of one's self, HE KNOWS JESUS CHRIST.

Regards

 

[thessalonian]

Those who don't believe are condemned already...is what the Bible teaches on this subject. Thess, I find this teaching most troubling, that people can be saved without belief in Christ. The law on their hearts is there to condemn them for their unbelief, no one is saved by their own works.

Peace,

jm

Where did I say any of their works save them. Rereads his post and checks his brain. Nope, it's not in their anywhere. Anyone who makes it to heaven makes it there by the grace of God. You need to read ALL of Romans 2:14-16.

[13] For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified.
[14] When Gentiles who have not the law do by nature what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law.
[15] They show that what the law requires is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or perhaps excuse them


Got that. They do what the law requires. And what is that. Care for the widow and the orphan. (see Is 1) They do this not of themselves but by the grace of God working in them. Their works do not save them except that they show the grace of God working in their lives. Now grace that is not acted upon does not save. So their works are a sign of God's grace working in them.

It is interesting that IF Law means what you think it does (i.e. sacrfices of goats and rams, sabaath's etc), then what this verse is saying is that the pagans paul is speaking of did worship the one true God as I see it. They sacrificed. No the heart of the law is charity which is love. That is the law that God does in fact require us to follow.

Luke 10
[25] And behold, a lawyer stood up to put him to the test, saying, "Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?"
[26] He said to him, "What is written in the law? How do you read?"
[27] And he answered, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your strength, and with all your mind; and your neighbor as yourself."
[28] And he said to him, "You have answered right; do this, and you will live."

 

[Lewis]

I will say it one more time God is not a cruel God, that he would send to hell a little baby, does that make any sense to any of you ?

 

[thessalonian]

So what about a man that died in North America before the 11th Century?

If that man didn't know Christ, then that man died in his sin.

"Now when they had gone through Phrygia and the region of Galatia, they were forbidden by the Holy Spirit to preach the word in Asia" (Acts 16:6)

What about the man that died in Asia where the word was forbidden to be preacher? I believe it's God's will, you believe what? That they are saved by some other means?

:wink:

There is no other means but Christ. All men in fact recieve grace. All creation cries out to the glory of God. That is grace and all men are expected to see it. The laws of God are implanted on men's hearts. That is grace and all men are expected to respond to that grace by loving their neighbor as best they can. As Stfrances said "the spirit moves where it will". Accountability is on a grace given basis as can be clearly demonstrated in Luke 12 with the faithful servant who became unfaithful and the man who did not know. The first was treated as an unbeliever while the second was given a light beating.

Do you believe that only certain men recieve grace? What is grace for you? Is it God moving the world or is it just him being nice and overlooking sin?

 

[thessalonian]

So what about a man that died in North America before the 11th Century?

If that man didn't know Christ, then that man died in his sin.

"Now when they had gone through Phrygia and the region of Galatia, they were forbidden by the Holy Spirit to preach the word in Asia" (Acts 16:6)

What about the man that died in Asia where the word was forbidden to be preacher? I believe it's God's will, you believe what? That they are saved by some other means?

:wink:

There is no other means but Christ. All men in fact recieve grace. All creation cries out to the glory of God. That is grace and all men are expected to see it. The laws of God are implanted on men's hearts. That is grace and all men are expected to respond to that grace by loving their neighbor as best they can. As Stfrances said "the spirit moves where it will". Accountability is on a grace given basis as can be clearly demonstrated in Luke 12 with the faithful servant who became unfaithful and the man who did not know. The first was treated as an unbeliever while the second was given a light beating.

 

[JM]

I started another thread in Apologetics on this topic so we can leave this one for the Catholics only.

Peace,

jm