Muslims Love Virigin Mary (pbuh)!

[Love25]

Jesus Christ is the only begotten Son of God.

Amen to that. Scripture in itself shares that with us in the New Testament.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His ONLY begotten Son. That whosever believeth in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life.

Begotten were Omitted in:

RSV Bible
NIV Bible

Becuase it is not mentioned in Original scriptures!

And Son is used for Rightous people in the bible!

and begotten is used also:

for David begotten son:

Psalms 2:7

"I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee."

Peace

 

[Caroline H]

Love25, that passage in Psalms is a messianic psalm, and is referring to the Messiah (Jesus) who came from the line of David. It is not referring to David.

 

[LostSoul]

Begotten were Omitted in:

RSV Bible
NIV Bible

Becuase it is not mentioned in Original scriptures!

And Son is used for Rightous people in the bible!

and begotten is used also:

for David begotten son:

Psalms 2:7

"I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee."

Peace

Love,

I am sorry but I am inclined to disagree with you. For there is not another I have seen refered to in scripture, even as far back as the Old Testament that is refered to as a Begotten Son of God, or anything close to Holy or Perfect outside of God Himself...or Christ Jesus the Lord.

It is understandable that being of two different religions or religious views that we are bound to see things differently. So at this point in time, I am going to have to say that though I cannot agree with you, I can respect...but NOT share your views.

May God Bless You

Danielle

 

[Love25]

Love,

I am sorry but I am inclined to disagree with you. For there is not another I have seen refered to in scripture, even as far back as the Old Testament that is refered to as a Begotten Son of God, or anything close to Holy or Perfect outside of God Himself...or Christ Jesus the Lord.

It is understandable that being of two different religions or religious views that we are bound to see things differently. So at this point in time, I am going to have to say that though I cannot agree with you, I can respect...but NOT share your views.

May God Bless You

Danielle[/quote]

I respect your opinion, but please notice that I didnt say my opinion but it is christian scholars who translated and wrote RSV and NIV bible which is considered best revised translations!!

May Allah (swt) guide us all!

b. regards

Peace

 

[LostSoul]

I respect your opinion, but please notice that I didnt say my opinion but it is christian scholars who translated and wrote RSV and NIV bible which is considered best revised translations!!

May Allah (swt) guide us all!

b. regards

Peace

Love,

Basically what I am saying here is I do not agree with your interpretation that Son or Begotten Son was used for righteous people. For even as early as the book of Psalms in the Old Testament, Jesus was spoken of. There was prophecy of Jesus in scripture written long before Jesus came to walk this earth. That is all I was saying.

Not that certain words were not changed, or perhaps omitted in different Bible translations. For that in itself shows on its own based off of the different wording and context when compared to other Bible translations.

That is all.

May God Bless You

Danielle

 

[Love25]

turnorburn are you a Jew!?

Peace

 

[kenan]

turnorburn are you a Jew!?

Peace

If you are referring to the Flag of Israel in his signature, I can only hypothesize that he is either a Citizen of Israel, a Messianic Jew or, like many Christians, feels a certain connection to the nation of Israel, as we are God's people (but, I'll let turnorburn speak for himself).

I must say that I respect your modus operandi: instead of pointing out contradictions in the Bible (which can be cleared up by taking the verse in context) or preaching hell (which is very real but is not the message Christianity teaches, which is one of love), you instead call people peacefully to your faith by showing the similarities between some sects of Christianity and Islam - after all, your faith says that Islam was the religion of the prophets of the Bible, so your method of preaching is, essentially, the only correct way of calling people to Islam.

However, I will take the side of my brothers in Christ and say that some of your knowledge of Christianity is in error. For a start, many if not all Christians believe that Mary was a model woman, and that she mothered our Lord, but only some sects of Christianity believe that she should be worshiped or venerated in any way. Also, Christians believe that we are all Sons of God, but Jesus Christ is the only Son "firstborn over all creation" (Col. 1:15).

Finally, although the NIV and RSV Bible have certain benefits (e.g. they are easier to read than the KJV, which contains archaic language and grammar), they are described as being "Dynamically Equivalent", i.e. they are interpretations based on the translator's beliefs. While this makes passages easier to read, it also omits and adds various, and sometimes crucial, words or phrases to the Word. This is most probably not done with intent to confuse readers, but simply to give readers who, for their own personal reasons, cannot, won't or don't read more accurate translations, such as the KJV or the NASB. In any case, most translations still let readers get the 'gist' of the Word. But, when discussing minute differences between translations and theological issues, the unwritten rule is that the more accurate the translation, the better.

God bless you Love25. It's a pleasure to talk with you ;)

Kenan

 

[Love25]

Sure let him/her answer for himself/herself but it is intresting by the way that some christians very conceted to Jews who dont consider Jesus (pbuh) as Prophet only, but they went far then that and made insults to him and his mother in their holy book Talmud which is considered second holy teachings after Torah and for some sects it is same like Torah!!

Anyway back to what we were talking about:

the word Begotten is the only reason that make SON when used to Jesus (pbuh) differ then any other person, meet any chrsitian in any sect or even cult and he will tell you begotten, begotten......

So How can translators of the bible make such confusion and Omitt such very Important KYE word from the bible, if it is not in Original!?

Take for example RSV bible:

THIS BIBLE (RSV), IS THE PRODUCT OF THIRTY-TWO SCHOLARS, ASSISTED BY AN ADVISORY COMMITTEE REPRESENTING FIFTY CO-OPERATING DENOMINATIONS.

do you know what those 32 scholars said about KJV bible!?

YET THE KING JAMES VERSION HAS GRAVE DEFECTS." And, "THAT THESE DEFECTS ARE SO MANY AND SO SERIOUS AS TO CALL FOR REVISION . . ."

You should understand that I just watch what you christians say, so who I should beleive the Best Revised Bible RSV scholars ASSISTED BY AN ADVISORY COMMITTEE REPRESENTING FIFTY CO-OPERATING DENOMINATIONS, or what you say!?

For me I can understand translation Mistakes or problems, but could any christian make mistake in word begotten!!!!!!??????????

Peace

 

[LostSoul]

turnorburn are you a Jew!?

Peace

Love,

Does it really matter if he is Jewish?

 

[kenan]

I should point out that I have not read the Holy Bible from cover to cover, and I won't pretend that I myself found all of the following verses to argue my case. That said, I will always try to take the verse in context and I cross check the verse with my own Bible (a KJV) to make sure that there isn't some sort of mistake or bad translation. Also, if I make any mistakes here, please don't hesitate to correct them (this is directed to Love25 and all the Christians on the board).

the word Begotten is the only reason that make SON when used to Jesus (pbuh) differ then any other person, meet any chrsitian in any sect or even cult and he will tell you begotten, begotten......

Consider this verse: "For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?" (Heb. 1:5). This verse is not saying that angels, or indeed man, cannot be sons of God, but that Christ is unique and unlike any other son of God because he was begotten of God.

So How can translators of the bible make such confusion and Omitt such very Important KYE word from the bible, if it is not in Original!?

As I said, the RSV is not a bad translation, but it isn't as accurate as the KJV, because it borderlines dynamic equivalence.

Take for example RSV bible:

THIS BIBLE (RSV), IS THE PRODUCT OF THIRTY-TWO SCHOLARS, ASSISTED BY AN ADVISORY COMMITTEE REPRESENTING FIFTY CO-OPERATING DENOMINATIONS.

do you know what those 32 scholars said about KJV bible!?

YET THE KING JAMES VERSION HAS GRAVE DEFECTS." And, "THAT THESE DEFECTS ARE SO MANY AND SO SERIOUS AS TO CALL FOR REVISION . . ."

You should understand that I just watch what you christians say, so who I should beleive the Best Revised Bible RSV scholars ASSISTED BY AN ADVISORY COMMITTEE REPRESENTING FIFTY CO-OPERATING DENOMINATIONS, or what you say!?

I looked around for a bit and can't find where these scholars said such things, nor can I find anywhere that states that the translation of the RSV was assisted by a committee representing 50 denominations. Can you point me to a reference? I

t also may interest you to know if you don't already that the KJV was translated by 47 translators, and that the RSV also contains various errors (mainly from the dynamic equivalence translation style), one of which that very close to traditional beliefs in Islam that I'd like to point out to you: Isaiah 7:14: "Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel". I believe I'm correct in saying that, despite their believe that Jesus Christ was a prophet and the Messiah, but that He is not the mediator between man and God, Muslims believe that Jesus Christ was born of a virgin, i.e. the Virgin Mary.

For me I can understand translation Mistakes or problems, but could any christian make mistake in word begotten!!!!!!??????????

A summary of Christianity can be given by John 3:16 (I'm sure you're familiar with it, so I won't quote it here). The basis upon which Christianity stands is summed up in that verse, and were it possible to disprove it, Christianity as we know it would all but crumble. The use of 'begotten' is quite vital in that verse, and for a good reason: all of mans efforts to please God are destined to falter because we are born full of sin (see Romans 3:23). All creation are sons of God, but only Christ is God's begotten son.

 

[Love25]

I should point out that I have not read the Holy Bible from cover to cover, and I won't pretend that I myself found all of the following verses to argue my case. That said, I will always try to take the verse in context and I cross check the verse with my own Bible (a KJV) to make sure that there isn't some sort of mistake or bad translation. Also, if I make any mistakes here, please don't hesitate to correct them (this is directed to Love25 and all the Christians on the board).

No problem we are not here experts so we can make mistakes and corect them and we can have different opinions which is something normal, but Truth can be only one becuase GOD is One and in this I think we agree!

Your way of thinking or invetigating things is very good but I think there is two points as comment to what you wrote;

1- we should always return to people of knwolegde to ask them, yes we can read translations but there will always things that we can miss or dont understand in right way if we dont know the whole picture!

2- That you cross check different translation is not bad but should we cross check with Original, which of course is problem becuase of the Lnaguage and becuase the source of those originals are Unknown, I know this opens another subject but it is important opinion that I think you should consider!

--------------------------

Consider this verse: "For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?" (Heb. 1:5). This verse is not saying that angels, or indeed man, cannot be sons of God, but that Christ is unique and unlike any other son of God because he was begotten of God.

Again we can see some Bibles Omitt this word, becuase it is not in the original:

International Standard Version (©2008)
For to which of the angels did God ever say, "You are my Son. Today I have become your Father"? Or again, "I will be his Father, and he will be my Son"?

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
God never said to any of his angels, "You are my Son. Today I have become your Father." And God never said to any of his angels, "I will be his Father, and he will be my Son."

Darby Bible Translation
For to which of the angels said he ever, Thou art my Son: this day have I begotten thee? and again, I will be to him for father, and he shall be to me for son?

Weymouth New Testament
For to which of the angels did God ever say, "My Son art Thou: I have this day become Thy Father;" and again, "I will be a Father to Him, and He shall be My Son"?

World English Bible
For to which of the angels did he say at any time, "You are my Son. Today have I become your father?" and again, "I will be to him a Father, and he will be to me a Son?"

There is another problem with the word beggoten and this is becuase it is not respectable way to use it with God!!

----------------------------------

As I said, the RSV is not a bad translation, but it isn't as accurate as the KJV, because it borderlines dynamic equivalence.

And i dont defend any bible and I can understand translation problems, but when it comes to such Important word which is KYE word I think we need to stop on such notice and investgate why many bible translations Omitted such Important word!?

See in original scripts the word is UNIQUE which I totaly agree with becuase Jesus (pbuh) were UNIQUE as he is the only one who were Born from Mother without Father as Sign to all Man Kind!

-----------------------------------

I looked around for a bit and can't find where these scholars said such things, nor can I find anywhere that states that the translation of the RSV was assisted by a committee representing 50 denominations. Can you point me to a reference?

I made google and found a lot of links Chrictians and non christians that talk about what RSV scgolars say about KJV bible google:

Grave defects in KJV bible

------------------------------------

it also may interest you to know if you don't already that the KJV was translated by 47 translators, and that the RSV also contains various errors (mainly from the dynamic equivalence translation style), one of which that very close to traditional beliefs in Islam that I'd like to point out to you: Isaiah 7:14: "Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel". I believe I'm correct in saying that, despite their believe that Jesus Christ was a prophet and the Messiah, but that He is not the mediator between man and God, Muslims believe that Jesus Christ was born of a virgin, i.e. the Virgin Mary.

47 Translators bible scholars made KJV which were revised many times and still RSV bible scholars find what they described as grave defects, doesnt this stop us to think about what is going on!?

Where is Inspiration!?

----------------------------------

A summary of Christianity can be given by John 3:16 (I'm sure you're familiar with it, so I won't quote it here). The basis upon which Christianity stands is summed up in that verse, and were it possible to disprove it, Christianity as we know it would all but crumble. The use of 'begotten' is quite vital in that verse, and for a good reason: all of mans efforts to please God are destined to falter because we are born full of sin (see Romans 3:23). All creation are sons of God, but only Christ is God's begotten son.

I have a Question for you, Romans 3:23 says we are born full of Sins and of course Jesus (pbuh) came to die for us and for our Sins, which means that me as Muslim or Athiests or Jew who dont accept Jesus as God will also go to paradise right!?

If not right and I have to become christian to be saved then Jesus (pbuh) came to die for christians only, right!?

Peace

 

[kenan]

Again we can see some Bibles Omitt this word, becuase it is not in the original:

International Standard Version (©2008)
For to which of the angels did God ever say, "You are my Son. Today I have become your Father"? Or again, "I will be his Father, and he will be my Son"?

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
God never said to any of his angels, "You are my Son. Today I have become your Father." And God never said to any of his angels, "I will be his Father, and he will be my Son."

Darby Bible Translation
For to which of the angels said he ever, Thou art my Son: this day have I begotten thee? and again, I will be to him for father, and he shall be to me for son?

Weymouth New Testament
For to which of the angels did God ever say, "My Son art Thou: I have this day become Thy Father;" and again, "I will be a Father to Him, and He shall be My Son"?

World English Bible
For to which of the angels did he say at any time, "You are my Son. Today have I become your father?" and again, "I will be to him a Father, and he will be to me a Son?"

With an exception to the Darby Bible (which still states that Jesus Christ is God's begotten son), all of these verse still point to the fact that Jesus Christ shares a unique relationship with His Father, that no other created being shares with Him. I won't pretend that I completely understand this mystical bond between them, but we can see that their relationship is unique and unlike that of any other being, and surely that counts for something. And to me (and this is just me talking), the use of begotten or the lack thereof doesn't change the context of the verse: Jesus Christ, in these verses, is still described as the Father's unique son.

There is another problem with the word beggoten and this is becuase it is not respectable way to use it with God!!

I'm not sure what you mean, please elaborate.

And i dont defend any bible and I can understand translation problems, but when it comes to such Important word which is KYE word I think we need to stop on such notice and investgate why many bible translations Omitted such Important word!?

I don't know what you mean by KYE word (do you mean keyword?). Please don't take this as an ad hom. attack, I just think that there should be as little communication error as possible.

As for the fact that they omitted the word "begotten", you can see from my short explanation above that the use of begotten or lack thereof in Heb. 1:5 doesn't change the context of the passage in my eyes, and it still points to the fact that Jesus Christ and the Father share a bond which is unique.

See in original scripts the word is UNIQUE which I totaly agree with becuase Jesus (pbuh) were UNIQUE as he is the only one who were Born from Mother without Father as Sign to all Man Kind!

As I have said, the use of unique or begotten to me doesn't change the meaning of the passage: begotten simply means that he is unlike any of God's other sons, as does unique.

I made google and found a lot of links Chrictians and non christians that talk about what RSV scgolars say about KJV bible google:

Grave defects in KJV bible

Sanitarium sent me the link from which you got your evidence from (or at least a site which contains evidence similar to yours, using the same sources). Here it is if anyone else wants to read it: http://www.jamaat.net/bible/Bible1-3.html

I've discussed above how the use of begotten, unique or the like doesn't change the context of the passage, so I won't discuss it again here.

47 Translators bible scholars made KJV which were revised many times and still RSV bible scholars find what they described as grave defects, doesnt this stop us to think about what is going on!?

Where is Inspiration!?

I won't comment on this because I'm not a theologian, nor do I have a masters in Greek, Hebrew, Latin, Aramaic or any of the other languages the Bible has been written in, but I will say that I don't think that there are any significant defects in the KJV: as a matter of fact, the verses in the KJV all affirm the beliefs of Christians from the time and from hundreds of years before. But, again, this is only my opinion and I won't pretend to understand the entire situation.

I have a Question for you, Romans 3:23 says we are born full of Sins and of course Jesus (pbuh) came to die for us and for our Sins, which means that me as Muslim or Athiests or Jew who dont accept Jesus as God will also go to paradise right!?

If not right and I have to become christian to be saved then Jesus (pbuh) came to die for christians only, right!?

Regardless of the use of begotten, unique or any other adjective to describe the relationship between the Father and Jesus Christ, these verse clearly answers your question. John 14:6: "Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me". This verse shows that Jesus Christ is the one and only way to the Father. Also, see this verse: Romans 10:9 "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved." In answer to your question, Jesus Christ died for our sins and gave us the free gift of Grace, but to receive it, you must confess the Lord Jesus (in other translations, that "Jesus is Lord"), and believe that God raised him from the dead (which is, I might add, in direct contrast to the believe of Muslims that Jesus was not even crucified at all).

Questions similar to yours have been asked before, and to paraphrase them: "What about all the people who lived before Jesus or didn't know about Him?". The answer to that, I cannot say. There are two sides to it: there is the Biblically supported side which is summed up in Rom. 3:23, and the logically supported side which says that it isn't fair that only some people have the opportunity to receive faith, while others don't and are destined to abide in Hell. Some answers to this logical side include that the people may be literally born again into this world (i.e. reincarnation), and have the chance to receive grace in this world , or that their works may be judged in the afterlife and if they were pious, good people who believed in their God/gods and did their God/gods commandments, and they never had the chance to accept Jesus Christ into their hearts, then our God will take this into account (I think that this is similar to the Muslim belief of unbelievers who never had the chance to believe in the one true God).

But, for those who had their chance to accept Jesus Christ, the answer is clear: "I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me", and "If thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved."

Peace

And you you too

Kenan

 

[Gabe]

There is another problem with the word beggoten and this is becuase it is not respectable way to use it with God!!

I'm not sure what you mean, please elaborate...

To Muslims, begotten = Mary conceived through sex (regardless of what our Scripture says)

 

[kenan]

There is another problem with the word beggoten and this is becuase it is not respectable way to use it with God!!

I'm not sure what you mean, please elaborate...

To Muslims, begotten = Mary conceived through sex (regardless of what our Scripture says)

Thanks.

 

[Love25]

As I have said, the use of unique or begotten to me doesn't change the meaning of the passage: begotten simply means that he is unlike any of God's other sons, as does unique.

Sure Begotten means simply unlike any of God's other sons/servents/slaves but in the origninal scriptures it is not begotten it is UNIQUE and same like Adam may peace be upon him were Unique as he were created without Father same Jesus may peace be upon him were uniques as he were born from Mother without father by God's permission!

saying that begotten is same like word unique this is something that I dont agree with you, as you assume that it means what you beleive while it can mean anything else like how I explain it which is more accurate!

Bible says God dont make confusion while we can see Jesus (pbuh) never said anything clear about christian main beleives and he were very clear that he is man and prophet and he himself cannot do anything, but the problem is in human nature that always twisted truth thats why we needed ecery period to Prophet or messanger to REMIND us!

----------------------------------

Regardless of the use of begotten, unique or any other adjective to describe the relationship between the Father and Jesus Christ, these verse clearly answers your question. John 14:6: "Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me".

Same can be said about any other Prophet for example when people lived in times of Moses (pbuh) if they wanted to be saved what they should do!?

They should follow Moses (pbuh) which simply means he is the way to GOD!

And actualy this verse shows that Jesus (pbuh) is not God but a prophet who calls us to God!!!

---------------------------------

Questions similar to yours have been asked before, and to paraphrase them: "What about all the people who lived before Jesus or didn't know about Him?". The answer to that, I cannot say. There are two sides to it: there is the Biblically supported side which is summed up in Rom. 3:23, and the logically supported side which says that it isn't fair that only some people have the opportunity to receive faith, while others don't and are destined to abide in Hell. Some answers to this logical side include that the people may be literally born again into this world (i.e. reincarnation), and have the chance to receive grace in this world , or that their works may be judged in the afterlife and if they were pious, good people who believed in their God/gods and did their God/gods commandments, and they never had the chance to accept Jesus Christ into their hearts, then our God will take this into account (I think that this is similar to the Muslim belief of unbelievers who never had the chance to believe in the one true God).

You should understand that me and you as people who beleive in God should follow God's words, we can give our opinions and they can be different but only depending on God's words as source, so to say there is opinion not supported by bible for me I dont even want to read it, becuase we follow God's words and not Humans words!

In Islam each nation were send for it Propeht or massanger there is Hadith as far as I know that says there were about 144000 messangers that were send to man kind to all nation, and by time due to human nature they begin to twist truth and make sharers to God etc....

God is ALL KNOWER, HE is JUSTICE, HE is MOST WISE and for sure HE knows what HE created and HE knows what is inside US, our Knowledge and our capabilties and intentions and all this is taken in Consideration in Judgment day each Atom of good or bad deeds, other with this will contradict that HE is JUSTICE!!

So for people who live in present times for example and they never heard about Islam all their life they will be Judged due to their knwolegde and intentions and deeds!!

So as you see in Islam we are Judged due to what we KNOW and what we DO etc....

But we are told from you christians that in order to be saved I should accept Jesus as God who came and died for me on the Cross, which means he died only for those who are christian Only, so I can beleive he died for me and I will garnatyee Paradise even if I am criminal!

Peace