My experience with Orthodoxy

[Runner]

This appears to be a not-very-lively forum, so I'll throw in my $0.02 worth.

My wife spent her first 53 years in the USSR and Republic of Belarus. Nevertheless, she was not Russian Orthodox. She was a devout Baptist and pretty much despised the Orthodox. In her experience, they were blind sheep who knew nothing about the Bible. She also pointed out that when the USSR collapsed, approximately 1/3 of the atheistic Soviet hierarchy was seamlessly integrated into the hierarchy of the Russian Orthodox Church.

I knew and cared essentially nothing about the Orthodox. My wife's views piqued my interest. I began reading vast swaths of Orthodox theology and discovered that not only was it very deep but that I agreed with most of it. I encouraged my wife to forget about her experiences with the Russian Orthodox and focus more widely on the Eastern Orthodox as a whole. She was quite surprised to discover that she agreed with most of the theology too.

She became an absolute devotee of Russian Orthodox theologian Alexei Osipov, reading and watching him almost every day. Alas, when the war with Ukraine erupted, Osipov proved himself to be just another Kremlin shill and everything my wife had believed about the Russian Orthodox Church was confirmed in spades.

I still have high regard for and considerable interest in Orthodox theology. The Orthodox insist, with considerable legitimacy, that they are the one true church with an unbroken lineage from the Apostles. Their authorities are the Bible, the Apostolic and Early Church Fathers, and their long history and tradition.

They point out that the supposed "sola Scriptura" of Protestantism is mostly an illusion, resulting in tens of thousands of interpretations and denominations all insisting they are operating on the basis of sola Scriptura. (There is also a branch of Protestantism called "paleo-orthodoxy" that is very similar to Orthodoxy but isn't affiliated. The late Thomas Oden was a leading exponent, and his systematic theology is well worth reading.)

All modern Orthodox theology is measured against the Bible and the Apostolic and Early Church Fathers, so startling changes are pretty much unheard-of. Some parts of Orthodoxy would seem a bit "Catholic" for many Protestants' tastes, but Orthodoxy and Catholicism are definitely not the "same thing" as many mistakenly believe and the antagonism is very evident in the Orthodox literature.

One problem for Westerners is the unique Orthodox "phronema." This refers to a particular Orthodox mindset that many Orthodox theologians insist is a matter of birth and long immersion in the faith and can never really be fully acquired by a convert. There have been some Americans who have achieved prominence within Orthodoxy, such as Father Seraphim Rose (a Russian Orthodox saint who had been an atheist, wrote his master's thesis on Taoism and experimented with homosexuality!), but my guess would be that Orthodox churches in America would be quite different from those in Russia, Greece and the rest of the East as a matter of culture and phronema.

All that being said, I've never been in an Orthodox Church except to take photos in several in Belarus. There isn't an Orthodox church within 200 miles of my home, and I'd be disinclined to join both because there is a fairly lengthy catechism and I do suspect the "phronema thing" has considerable validity.

That's my $0.02 worth on Orthodoxy. I'm no expert, but I did sleep in a Holiday Inn Express last night and thus am authorized to speak with authority on any subject.

 

[Hidden In Him]

This appears to be a not-very-lively forum, so I'll throw in my $0.02 worth.

My wife spent her first 53 years in the USSR and Republic of Belarus. Nevertheless, she was not Russian Orthodox. She was a devout Baptist and pretty much despised the Orthodox. In her experience, they were blind sheep who knew nothing about the Bible. She also pointed out that when the USSR collapsed, approximately 1/3 of the atheistic Soviet hierarchy was seamlessly integrated into the hierarchy of the Russian Orthodox Church.

I knew and cared essentially nothing about the Orthodox. My wife's views piqued my interest. I began reading vast swaths of Orthodox theology and discovered that not only was it very deep but that I agreed with most of it. I encouraged my wife to forget about her experiences with the Russian Orthodox and focus more widely on the Eastern Orthodox as a whole. She was quite surprised to discover that she agreed with most of the theology too.

She became an absolute devotee of Russian Orthodox theologian Alexei Osipov, reading and watching him almost every day. Alas, when the war with Ukraine erupted, Osipov proved himself to be just another Kremlin shill and everything my wife had believed about the Russian Orthodox Church was confirmed in spades.

I still have high regard for and considerable interest in Orthodox theology. The Orthodox insist, with considerable legitimacy, that they are the one true church with an unbroken lineage from the Apostles. Their authorities are the Bible, the Apostolic and Early Church Fathers, and their long history and tradition.

They point out that the supposed "sola Scriptura" of Protestantism is mostly an illusion, resulting in tens of thousands of interpretations and denominations all insisting they are operating on the basis of sola Scriptura. (There is also a branch of Protestantism called "paleo-orthodoxy" that is very similar to Orthodoxy but isn't affiliated. The late Thomas Oden was a leading exponent, and his systematic theology is well worth reading.)

All modern Orthodox theology is measured against the Bible and the Apostolic and Early Church Fathers, so startling changes are pretty much unheard-of. Some parts of Orthodoxy would seem a bit "Catholic" for many Protestants' tastes, but Orthodoxy and Catholicism are definitely not the "same thing" as many mistakenly believe and the antagonism is very evident in the Orthodox literature.

One problem for Westerners is the unique Orthodox "phronema." This refers to a particular Orthodox mindset that many Orthodox theologians insist is a matter of birth and long immersion in the faith and can never really be fully acquired by a convert. There have been some Americans who have achieved prominence within Orthodoxy, such as Father Seraphim Rose (a Russian Orthodox saint who had been an atheist, wrote his master's thesis on Taoism and experimented with homosexuality!), but my guess would be that Orthodox churches in America would be quite different from those in Russia, Greece and the rest of the East as a matter of culture and phronema.

All that being said, I've never been in an Orthodox Church except to take photos in several in Belarus. There isn't an Orthodox church within 200 miles of my home, and I'd be disinclined to join both because there is a fairly lengthy catechism and I do suspect the "phronema thing" has considerable validity.

That's my $0.02 worth on Orthodoxy. I'm no expert, but I did sleep in a Holiday Inn Express last night and thus am authorized to speak with authority on any subject.

Good post.

I would likely find their ritualism a bit too staid for me as well, but doctrinally I've never had tremendous problems with them. I find them interesting, if anything. I certainly wouldn't favor a number of the more commercialistic and superficial forms of Christianity we have in the States over it, because I actually find great value in tradition, so long as it's what was passed on through the early church. It's the modern church's departure from tradition that has actually led to so much heresy and ignorance concerning the word of God.

 

[Dyonisius the Areopagite]

Good post.

I would likely find their ritualism a bit too staid for me as well, but doctrinally I've never had tremendous problems with them. I find them interesting, if anything. I certainly wouldn't favor a number of the more commercialistic and superficial forms of Christianity we have in the States over it, because I actually find great value in tradition, so long as it's what was passed on through the early church. It's the modern church's departure from tradition that has actually led to so much heresy and ignorance concerning the word of God.

Greetings in the Name of Christ,
I was born into Protestantism as an American. I met the Lord when I was six years old by answering the altar call of my mother's church. And I have been His ever since. I had a period of rebellion against Him in my youth and young adulthood, but He wooed me back to Himself. After that I heavily studied theology and apologetics and over the course of two decades, I ended up studying Church History and this eventually led me to the Orthodox Church. I "came home" to the Church fifteen years ago when I was forty and was Baptized into the Romanian Episcopate. I have not regretted it.
What prompted me to answer your post above is your comment about ritualism. I have yet to be able to accustom myself to the lifestyle of an Orthodox Christian in the aspect of fasting and prayer and all of the ins and outs of that. I try my best but because of my Protestant upbringing and heritage I am simply very spiritually undisciplined and chaotic. I am a work in progress on that.
That said though I have found immense comfort in Holy Liturgy. I have found immense comfort in the Holy Icons and the construction plan of a basic Orthodox Temple. The fact that the Iconostasis represents the Veil of the Temple and that the door to the Altar represents Jesus and that the Holy Eucharist is brought out through that door to the people in the "Nave" which is the bosom of the Lord. Just so many things. And, as Orthodox we do not believe any of this to be simple symbolism, but to be spiritual, mystical reality. When the Choir sings, and the people join in, we are mystically one with the Cherubim singing before the Throne in Heaven. That is just one example of just hundreds.
I also found that I actually NEEDED the ritualistic aspect of the Faith. That, once I began to participate that it filled within me a need that I had not even really known was there. And it is not a replacement for the Lord. It was actually the Lord Who showed me that this is how He designed us. We ALL need this ritualistic aspect in our lives. It is not a replacement for true spirituality in the Lord, but rather and OUTGROWTH of that spirituality, and I found that it was a very liberating experience for me, because it banished what I came to realize was Protestant superstition about things like ritual and tradition. The Orthodox say that the Protestant Reformers threw out the baby with the bathwater and I fully understand why. I highly recommend that you attend an Orthodox Liturgy in your local area.
As a last example, concerning ritual and tradition, I will point you to Friday Akathist. This is a service that is performed on Friday night as a continuation within the Church of the beginning of the OT Sabbath. Typically, it is a service which honors a Saint, and that Saint honored goes according to the Liturgical calendar of the year. In any case, when this ritual is performed a square table is brought out into the Nave in front of the Iconostasis and implements of the ritual laid out on the table and the Priest begins the prayers. On the opposite side of the table from him a member of the Parish stands with a lit candle. At one point during the service the Priest moves from one side of the table to another and goes around the whole table while swinging inscence and praying. As he moves from one side to another the candle-holder opposite him moves with him so he is always opposite the Priest. I was curious as to the reason for this and asked my Priest one day about it.
He told me that according to Sacred Oral Tradition, when the Archangel Gabriel gave the Annunciation to Mary, there was a table in between them and he moved around it to get closer to her. The Holy Church remembers this through the action of that ritual. I was blown away by that.
May the Lord be with you.
Christ is amongst us. Now and ever and unto ages of ages, amen.

 

[Hidden In Him]

What prompted me to answer your post above is your comment about ritualism. I have yet to be able to accustom myself to the lifestyle of an Orthodox Christian in the aspect of fasting and prayer and all of the ins and outs of that. I try my best but because of my Protestant upbringing and heritage I am simply very spiritually undisciplined and chaotic. I am a work in progress on that.

Greetings!

This is actually one of the traditions I would embrace strongly, and one I wish early Protestantism had retained. It's all over the Bible if one knows what they are looking for. But I do understand that rigidity would be a problem, because it would be for me as well. I think it has to be according to the leading of the Holy Spirit, which is why no hard and fast rules were ever written down in the NT to give us instruction. They just did it as each was able and as they were each led I believe. Paul fasted and prayed often, and it's likely no accident that his writings would go on to make up a larger segment of the Bible than almost anyone's.

That said though I have found immense comfort in Holy Liturgy. I have found immense comfort in the Holy Icons and the construction plan of a basic Orthodox Temple. The fact that the Iconostasis represents the Veil of the Temple and that the door to the Altar represents Jesus and that the Holy Eucharist is brought out through that door to the people in the "Nave" which is the bosom of the Lord. Just so many things. And, as Orthodox we do not believe any of this to be simple symbolism, but to be spiritual, mystical reality. When the Choir sings, and the people join in, we are mystically one with the Cherubim singing before the Throne in Heaven. That is just one example of just hundreds.
I also found that I actually NEEDED the ritualistic aspect of the Faith. That, once I began to participate that it filled within me a need that I had not even really known was there. And it is not a replacement for the Lord. It was actually the Lord Who showed me that this is how He designed us. We ALL need this ritualistic aspect in our lives. It is not a replacement for true spirituality in the Lord, but rather and OUTGROWTH of that spirituality, and I found that it was a very liberating experience for me, because it banished what I came to realize was Protestant superstition about things like ritual and tradition. The Orthodox say that the Protestant Reformers threw out the baby with the bathwater and I fully understand why. I highly recommend that you attend an Orthodox Liturgy in your local area.

Interesting perspective. I was actually about to pin the tail directly on the Reformers as well, I just stopped short of it.

I appreciate the recommendation. My life is so busy that I don't think I could enjoy liturgy at this time in my life. But in later years I might take your advice under consideration.

Blessings in Christ, and welcome to our community once again : )
Hidden

 

[Dyonisius the Areopagite]

Greetings!

This is actually one of the traditions I would embrace strongly, and one I wish early Protestantism had retained. It's all over the Bible if one knows what they are looking for. But I do understand that rigidity would be a problem, because it would be for me as well. I think it has to be according to the leading of the Holy Spirit, which is why no hard and fast rules were ever written down in the NT to give us instruction. They just did it as each was able and as they were each led I believe. Paul fasted and prayed often, and it's likely no accident that his writings would go on to make up a larger segment of the Bible than almost anyone's.


Interesting perspective. I was actually about to pin the tail directly on the Reformers as well, I just stopped short of it.

I appreciate the recommendation. My life is so busy that I don't think I could enjoy liturgy at this time in my life. But in later years I might take your advice under consideration.

Blessings in Christ, and welcome to our community once again : )
Hidden

Thank you for your welcome and I appreciate your correspondence. Holy Liturgy, btw, is given by any local parish, as a Sunday service. It lasts about an hour and a half unless you arrive early for Matins. Matins, btw, comes down to us directly from the Apostles, who worshipped daily in the Temple in Jerusalem, in the very early stages of the Church. Now, the Holy Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom (The Golden Tonged) is a compilation of all of the ancient liturgies of the various local Churches of his time coming down from Apostolic times. They had all had various difference and so Chrysostom had put them together as one so that the whole of the Church could sing the exact same Liturgy every Lord's Day the same all over the Christian world. If it is performed in its entirety it lasts for seven hours. In the Monasteries it is performed in its entirety every day, but I believe that they split it up into 3 parts for 3 parts of the day.
I do hope you come home to the Church for it seems that the Lord is drawing you in that direction.
I wish to point out to you that the Church contains everything that various Protestant sects have complained about. For example, Sabbatarians and Seventh Day Adventists. These complain that the "Sabbath was changed". It was not. As I pointed out to you, the Church still observes the Sabbath, both on Friday at sundown with Akathist, and on Saturday memorial services are traditionally given for the departed, for it was on the Sabbath in which the Lord Rested in the tomb, and descended into Hades to free its captives. Also, on Saturday, Orthodox women traditionally cease cleaning their homes in honor of the OT Sabbath. Sunday is the Lord's Day and day that we celebrate the Resurrection of the Lord which is the rest of the Church. The Church is the continuation of Judaism, rather than its end. Everything in Judaism became transformed in Christ, the OT becoming explained and illuminated by the New Covenant.