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My Father is Greater than I/John 14:28.

jeff77 said:
What is the problem with believing that Jesus is God, worshipping, praying that Jesus is the one true God?
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The problem, as I see it, is twofold:

1. Rationalism -- Attempting to understand the Mystery of God and the Mystery of Godliness with limited human "reasoning", rather than grasping these great truths by faith. To the rationalist God cannot be fully God and fully Man at one and the same time. To the rationalist God cannot be one God, yet three Divine Persons at the same time

2. Deception -- A willingness to listen to Satan's lies rather than the Holy Spirit's testimony regarding Christ. We should never forget that Satan brazenly walked up to Christ and challenged Him twice with "If thou be the Son of God..." (Mt 4:1-11). To the Jews, a claim to be the Son of God was a claim to be equal with God in all respects (Jn 5:18). So Satan was challenging Christ's Deity.

The rationalists keep harping that Jesus said "My Father is greater than I". This is the Jehovah's Witness proof text that Christ is not God. But they forget that "the Head of Christ is God" (1 Cor 11:3) which speaks of authority within the Godhead, not inequality. They also conveniently forget that Jesus said that He was in the Father, and the Father was in Him, and that God the Father called God the Son "GOD" (Theos) in Heb 1:8,9. That speaks of equality within the Godhead.
 
jeff77 said:
What is the problem with believing that Jesus is God, worshipping, praying that Jesus is the one true God?
Click to expand...

As I see it , one problem is that Jesus said the Father is the one true God. Also, when Jesus told the disciples how to pray He told the to say, "our Father how art in Heaven," He told them to pray to the Father. I don't think there's anywhere in Scripture where believers are told to pray to Jesus. If Jesus calls the Father the one true God, I think that ends the discussion, it does at least as far as I'm concerned. No man knows God better than Jesus and if He says it, I believe it. I posted in another thread what Paul said, 'to us there is one God, the Father. There's nothing in Scripture that says, to us there is one God, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
 
Men sware by the greater, and God swore by himself (Heb 6:13-16)

Jesus said the Father is greater then I, even as the one that is sent is not greater than he that sends him,

and the Father sent the son

For example, he took on the form of a servant

John 13:16 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him.

The Father sent the Son

1John 4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.

And likewise they called him master and Lord, (even as he is greater to us) obviously so. And even as the Father sends the Son, so send I you

John 20:21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.

As we too are blessed by the greater, as Abraham was by Melchizedek (John 8:53 & Heb 7:4)

Heb 6:13 For when God made promise to Abraham, because he could swear by no greater, he sware by himself,

Heb 6:16 For men verily swear by the greater: and an oath for confirmation is to them an end of all strife.

The head of Christ is God, the Father is excepted in being subject
 
Php 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
Php 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
Php 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

It really doesn't take a lot of investigation to see that because Jesus left the union with His Father, and became a Servant, Jesus was in need of His Fathers authority. He even said that his words were His Fathers.
 
Yes Jesus is God, and no He wasn't created ever. As the Word who became Flesh, He is the Only Begotten of the Father, John 1:1-18, that is Jesus the Man, had a time He was Begotten/Born in the Flesh, but as the Word of God He has always been with the Father, John 1:1-18
1) The LORD reigneth, He is clothed with majesty; the LORD is clothed with strength, with which he hath girded Himself, the world also is established, that it cannot be moved.
2) Thy throne is established of old: Thou art from everlasting.
Psalms 93:1-2
 
Butch5 said:
As I see it , one problem is that Jesus said the Father is the one true God. Also, when Jesus told the disciples how to pray He told the to say, "our Father how art in Heaven," He told them to pray to the Father. I don't think there's anywhere in Scripture where believers are told to pray to Jesus. If Jesus calls the Father the one true God, I think that ends the discussion, it does at least as far as I'm concerned. No man knows God better than Jesus and if He says it, I believe it. I posted in another thread what Paul said, 'to us there is one God, the Father. There's nothing in Scripture that says, to us there is one God, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
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Jesus never said that.

John 10:30
I and my Father are one.
 
To preach Jesus is not God is a violation of our SoF.
Reminder from our SoF.
We believe that there is only one God, who is eternal and immutable, and manifests Himself in three distinct Persons; Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

Because this is the Apologetics forum and in the interest of digging for truth, I will allow the discussion to continue so long as things remain civil.
 
Fyre said:
The head of Christ is God, the Father is excepted in being subject
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The "head of Christ is God" speaks of authority within the Godhead, as already brought to everyone's attention. That in no way cancels the absolute Deity of Christ.

If people are going to discuss this doctrine, then all the Scriptures pertaining to the eternal Word of God must be brought to bear, not just those which selectively show that while Jesus of Nazareth was on earth, He willingly and voluntarily submitted to the Father's will. While "He took upon Him the form of a Servant" (Phil 2:7), "He thought it not robbery to be EQUAL WITH GOD" (Phil 2:6). That's the Scriptural balance.

At the same time all Christians agree that Isaiah 9:6,7 speaks of Christ, and in this verse He is called (1) Wonderful, (2) Counsellor, (3) THE MIGHTY GOD, (4) THE EVERLASTING FATHER, (5) The Prince of Peace. This is the child that was born in Bethlehem. So how is it that this Scripture, and Psalm 45:6,7, 1 Timothy 3:16, and Hebrews 1:8,9 are not brought forward to balance the picture?

It would appear that those who make Christ out to be less than God handle the Scriptures dishonestly. The Jehovah's Witnesses even changed John 1:1 in their New World Translation to read "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god." That is dishonest translation and heresy.
 
I would it together in some kind of scrambled eggs deal that makes sense to the each of you, Jesus just said the Father was greater then him, that doesnt negate equal to him on the right hand of the throne as even they understood it, and it doesnt negate lower then the angels (in taking on the seed of Abraham) for the sufferings of death, it also doesnt negate being like him.

Only the reprobate pit those against one another trying to make his words contradict because they approach his words without faith and become a nuisance to others in the faith (not to mention a walking argument).
 
smaller said:
Jesus never said that.

John 10:30
I and my Father are one.
Click to expand...

Yes, He did.

KJV John 17:1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. (Joh 17:1-3 KJV)

If you notice Jesus said, "that they may know thee the only true God", AND Jesus Christ. Jesus Himself makes a clear distinction between Himself and the Father.

John 10:30 speaks of unity, not the same person. Just like Jesus said in John 17.

20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. (Joh 17:20-21 KJV)

Would you argue that Jesus was praying that all believers would become one being? If Jesus being one with the Father makes Him God, then wouldn't that mean believers who are one with Jesus and the Father God?
 
WIP said:
To preach Jesus is not God is a violation of our SoF.
Reminder from our SoF.
We believe that there is only one God, who is eternal and immutable, and manifests Himself in three distinct Persons; Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

Because this is the Apologetics forum and in the interest of digging for truth, I will allow the discussion to continue so long as things remain civil.
Click to expand...

I don't think anyone is denying that Jesus is God, I think it's what that means that is the question.
 
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