NDE and OBE...What Do You Think?

[OzSpen]

I happen to have many, many years of intensive studies in this field. OBEs are problematical. One of the early researchers/experiencers, Robert Crookall, was absolutely convinced of the reality of his OBEs until ... During one of his OBEs, he took careful note of the time and of the shadows of numerous objects. When he later correlated this with reality, nothing matched up. On the other hand, there have been some successes (Ingo Swann) indicating that something out of the body is occurring.

NDEs are absolutely not faked. In plenty of cases, the experiencer was unquestionably at the very point of death (or actually clinically dead) and had knowledge (either of medical procedures or of deceased persons in the afterlife realm) that he or she should not have had.

Where my "fake" antennae go up is with elaborate, content-laden OBEs and NDEs. Robert Monroe, for example, published numerous books detailing his extensive OBE travels in the astral realm; I give them no credence whatsoever. Over the years, as the NDE phenomenon has become well-known, the accounts have become ever-more-elaborate, full of cosmic knowledge, visits to Heaven and Hell, prophecies of future events, etc., etc. I likewise give them no credence whatsoever, even if they are explicitly Christian. I believe many of them are consciously faked (for celebrity and profit) while others have, with good intentions, "interpreted" their experiences into elaborate philosophies.

To me, OBEs and NDEs are valuable as evidence of mind-body dualism (i.e., the brain does not produce consciousness) and of the likely survival of consciousness after death. But that's it.

One of my favorite early NDE accounts was a woman who said, "I was shown the secret of the Universe. It was really, really simple. Unfortunately, I can't remember what it was."

That is beautifully summarised Runner. May you be blessed and encouraged in sharing this information with people.

Oz

 

[Not_Now.Soon]

I'm more prone to be biased towards believing the NDEs. I think I had something close to a NDE, or an actual NDE, when I was much younger. But I was young, it could have just been a dream after the fact, or a dream/NDE while I was in a coma. No real insight of the beyond. Just a scene that I attribute God giving me back to my parents when I was a little one. But sill enough to give me bias and hope towards NDE stories.

 

[smaller]

For anyone who might be interested, I've been working on this Youtube playlist for a couple years now. https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLqu52OZ_chlpi7-TCrAHXehSlbwf1l4UU Entitled "Hell: NDEs, OBEs, Visions, Dreams", it is a collection of people and their various modes of contact with that place of torment. Some of it might be a little disturbing at first; I think that's the point. To keep you from risking going there no matter what. It's in no particular order, save some of my personal favorites tend to float towards the top, so jump in anywhere if you wish. Continually updated.

I tend to discount the "christian" hell NDE accounts as personal bias influenced.

Just as I would discount certain features of Buddhism or Islam or Hinduism from their accounts, which they all have.

There is more of a question of personal relativity, which IS the common denominator. People seem to get met exactly where they are at, deep back in their own minds, as to the things they hold as "true." Doesn't mean what they are engaging in the accounts is 'real.' Communications in that zone is rather strange in ALL cases. Very different from "here."

I read an account a few years back where a woman who had an NDE who happened to be an animal lover saw dogs and cats in their post death state bodies running up an stairwell shaft in the hospital where her own body had floated off and these were being taken up into the infamous light, where she ended up going as well. So, again, relativity seems to be the most common denominator. For the record I do like to believe that animals have some sort of afterlife or retention of themselves in some way. Don't ask me how.

 

[smaller]

I happen to have many, many years of intensive studies in this field. OBEs are problematical. One of the early researchers/experiencers, Robert Crookall, was absolutely convinced of the reality of his OBEs until ... During one of his OBEs, he took careful note of the time and of the shadows of numerous objects. When he later correlated this with reality, nothing matched up. On the other hand, there have been some successes (Ingo Swann) indicating that something out of the body is occurring.

I've had personal discussions with many people who have had OBE's. The common denominator? Excessive drugs. Not in all cases, but most.

There are also NDE's that are not necessarily linked to body trauma, but can be stress induced. Which is what I've had. I actually had a couple NDE's when I was a kid from very high fevers, nearing 105 degrees fahrenheit. This may have made me more prone to the latter one that was stress induced. Don't know. They were all rather strange events. They all changed me in some ways. I did pick up an ability to "connect" and relate to nature and other creatures, which I attribute to my NDE's or OBE's or whatever they were. I really don't know what to term them. I just know it was a "real" phenom of some sort. More real than "here."

NDEs are absolutely not faked. In plenty of cases, the experiencer was unquestionably at the very point of death (or actually clinically dead) and had knowledge (either of medical procedures or of deceased persons in the afterlife realm) that he or she should not have had.

Where my "fake" antennae go up is with elaborate, content-laden OBEs and NDEs. Robert Monroe, for example, published numerous books detailing his extensive OBE travels in the astral realm; I give them no credence whatsoever. Over the years, as the NDE phenomenon has become well-known, the accounts have become ever-more-elaborate, full of cosmic knowledge, visits to Heaven and Hell, prophecies of future events, etc., etc. I likewise give them no credence whatsoever, even if they are explicitly Christian. I believe many of them are consciously faked (for celebrity and profit) while others have, with good intentions, "interpreted" their experiences into elaborate philosophies.

To me, OBEs and NDEs are valuable as evidence of mind-body dualism (i.e., the brain does not produce consciousness) and of the likely survival of consciousness after death. But that's it.

I would have to agree with that assessment.

One of my favorite early NDE accounts was a woman who said, "I was shown the secret of the Universe. It was really, really simple. Unfortunately, I can't remember what it was."

I remember reading that (or a similar) account as well. Funny. And like you I tend to discount a lot of things to personal biases. I do look for common "experience" features though. One of them is detesting having to come back into a body. And I had that all 3 times. Another is the "adjustment" period that comes afterwards, which again is a common feature. And again, this strikes home with me from experience.

 

[Runner]

I remember reading that (or a similar) account as well. Funny. And like you I tend to discount a lot of things to personal biases. I do look for common "experience" features though. One of them is detesting having to come back into a body. And I had that all 3 times. Another is the "adjustment" period that comes afterwards, which again is a common feature. And again, this strikes home with me from experience.

I do think the "core" NDE phenomenon as described by Raymond Moody, in the era before the "NDE culture" (or "The Church of the NDE") had developed, is fully consistent with Christian theology - really amazingly so. This is, of course, not what The Church of the NDE wants to hear. The Being of Light that radiates an all-encompassing Light that cannot be described in earthly terms, the overwhelming feelings of Acceptance and Love that envelop the experiencer, the angelic greeters who guide the experiencer through a life review, the sense that the "other side" is more real and glorious than earthly life, the wish of the experiencer to remain, etc. - all of these to me are 100% consistent with Christian theology. The Church of the NDE tends to focus on the fact that there was no harsh judgment; ergo, Christianity must not be true. Well, of course there was no harsh judgment - these are near-death experiences, not death experiences. Consistent with Christian theology, the life review does make very clear that there is a moral dimension to earthly life, that our actions do have serious consequences, and that there is very definitely a "wrong" path and a "right" path - again, entirely consistent with Christian theology. I used to debate these issues very actively on the now-defunct IANDS board, where my primary nemesis was a woman whose two NDEs had led her - weirdly - to become a militant atheist; I never could figure that out.

 

[smaller]

I do think the "core" NDE phenomenon as described by Raymond Moody, in the era before the "NDE culture" (or "The Church of the NDE") had developed, is fully consistent with Christian theology - really amazingly so. This is, of course, not what The Church of the NDE wants to hear. The Being of Light that radiates an all-encompassing Light that cannot be described in earthly terms, the overwhelming feelings of Acceptance and Love that envelop the experiencer, the angelic greeters who guide the experiencer through a life review, the sense that the "other side" is more real and glorious than earthly life, the wish of the experiencer to remain, etc. - all of these to me are 100% consistent with Christian theology. The Church of the NDE tends to focus on the fact that there was no harsh judgment; ergo, Christianity must not be true.

The difficulty is that people who are not christians do not have christian NDE experiences. They have experiences related to whatever religion or even no religion that they are into.

A woman I know who is a wiccan had an NDE on an operating table. She did the whole classic NDE, the OBE in the operating room, seeing and hearing everything going on, traveling around within the immediate locale, and then going into the classic tunnel and encountering the classic being of Light. Being a bigtime non-Christian and a skeptic when it comes to Christianity she asks "The Being"- "Who are you?" The Being says: "Who do you think I am?" She says "How do I know you aren't the devil?" The Being says: If you think I am, then that's what I am. She gets mad and screams "That's B.S!" Then wham...instantly she's back in her body on the operating table.

I thought that was the funniest exchange I've ever heard in the whole arena of NDE's. Trying to game The Being of Light. Didn't pan out too well.

Well, of course there was no harsh judgment - these are near-death experiences, not death experiences.

IF I am reading most of these 'judgment' episodes they are more akin to "cleansing" experiences. Which I would affirm from experience as well. Nothing to do with hell whatsoever.

It's hard to make a legitimate case that hell for mankind is even in effect currently from the scriptures. And if that's the case who really knows what these people were actually seeing, if anything. In the general NDE a person really isn't hearing and seeing and feeling as we perceive these things here on earth.

Consistent with Christian theology, the life review does make very clear that there is a moral dimension to earthly life, that our actions do have serious consequences, and that there is very definitely a "wrong" path and a "right" path -

I don't doubt that but would suggest that observation from the Perfect World vantage point does have advantages we don't have in this environment. They really are two entirely different worlds/environments. And the later has multiple dimensions to boot, which makes it even more complicated to understand.

again, entirely consistent with Christian theology. I used to debate these issues very actively on the now-defunct IANDS board, where my primary nemesis was a woman whose two NDEs had led her - weirdly - to become a militant atheist; I never could figure that out.

Pretty strange. But the woman I mentioned above is the same way, so having these experiences doesn't necessarily change people. I'd consider I'm still relatively the same person as well, with perhaps some larger periphery observations from the experiences.

 

[JohnDB]

I tend to think that sometimes God will give people a vision in order to make them straighten up and fly right.
Doesn't mean that their vision is for the masses...but just for them. (God has his own reasons)

Dunno why God does what he does...

 

[Pizza]

I tend to think that sometimes God will give people a vision in order to make them straighten up and fly right.
Doesn't mean that their vision is for the masses...but just for them. (God has his own reasons)

I agree. In May of 994, God spoke to me several times over the course of 45 minutes or so. THEN, He woke me late that night and spoke to me again - and I learned what He was trying to tell me. I've only told of this maybe three times in 22 years - while it might bolster someone's faith, for the most part it would mean almost nothing to others - but for me, it was life changing.