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[_ Old Earth _] No more universal common ancestor

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I know that's the popular thing to say these days but seriously? I think He does care. We are to model ourselves after His Son who took his Father's words to heart. Show me the argument from the words recorded and spoken by Jesus, if you don't mind. For my part? We have too many to choose from, "Man lives not from bread alone but from every word the comes from the Mouth of God."

God is indifferent to how you think creation was managed. He cares if you do what He wants you to do.

I would agree with your assessment regarding your teaching and the teaching of others on the subject in that I don't think that our ultimate salvation is predicated on it. But it's not okay to say, "God doesn't care..."

I have no clue where you got that idea, but it didn't come from the Bible.

A lot of people think the parable of the Good Samaritan is about helping others. But the key is that God told us to emulate a heretic (Samaritans were considered heretics) who had compassion for others, in preference to a theologically correct Levite who did not.

That's a pretty strong statement, isn't it?
 
That's a fairly revealing statement you've made, yes.

Did God say, "Be ye heretical but helpful?" I think no. Jesus was saying that the Samaritan was the theological fundamentalist in the arena that mattered most, love. Evaluated on the same scale it was the Pharisees lived their lives in a heretical manner.

I had previously asked for you to show your premise from the words spoken by Jesus, "Show me the argument from the words recorded and spoken by Jesus, if you don't mind." Does your statement about heresy fit in there somewhere? How it could support your allegations continues to elude me. I don't follow your reasoning here. Pardon me for that but know that I'm not trying to be dense on purpose. It just doesn't add up (to me). Would you care to say more to clarify the thought?
 
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That's a fairly revealing statement you've made, yes.

Did God say, "Be ye heretical but helpful?" I think no.

He merely pointed out that being right in all points of theology was less pleasing to him than being right with the basis of the law. Love Me and love your neighbor. And the Samaritan was a better neighbor than a non-heretic.

Jesus was saying that the Samaritan was the theological fundamentalist in the arena that mattered most, love. Evaluated on the same scale it was the Pharisees lived their lives in a heretical manner.

So we're saying the same things, aren't we?

I had previously asked for you to show your premise from the words spoken by Jesus, "Show me the argument from the words recorded and spoken by Jesus, if you don't mind." Does your statement about heresy fit in there somewhere?

Yep. And keep in mind, The Church is deeply opposed to heresy. And yet, we have Jesus' word on this.

How it could support your allegations continues to elude me. I don't follow your reasoning here. Pardon me for that but know that I'm not trying to be dense on purpose. It just doesn't add up (to me). Would you care to say more to clarify the thought?

The Samaritan had a lot of things wrong about God. They rejected much of what Judaism teaches. And yet, this Samaritan had it right, where it mattered to God. Theology won't save you; emulating the Samaritan will.

Which is why Jesus said to emulate a heretic. And it caused just as much consternation then, as it does now.
 
In the end eval Jesus said that we should not emulate heretics like the Pharisees who would hear without hearing and teach others utterly false methods.
 
What I gather is that you are trying to support your position about evolution by saying that Jesus chose to honor a heretic? That whole point is less than obvious to me. I still don't see the connection except that you are either excusing yourself for your heresy or me for mine? Could that be the point?

As long as we love and care for each other it's okay? I could support that position but it would be a stretch. For instance, we know that knowledge shall some day pass away. That's a far cry from our position today where every word of the Pure Word of Truth is profitable for reproof (I like that one), for correction and for instruction in righteousness.

2 Timothy 3:16 (KJV) | In Context
All Scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
 
What I gather is that you are trying to support your position about evolution by saying that Jesus chose to honor a heretic?

I'm pointing out that theology is not what will save you. So fine points of theology aren't really as important as we sometimes assume.

That whole point is less than obvious to me. I still don't see the connection except that you are either excusing yourself for your heresy or me for mine? Could that be the point?

In high school, the priest running my CCD class referred to me as "the heretic." He was joking. (I think)

As long as we love and care for each other it's okay? I could support that position but it would be a stretch.

First love God. Then love each other. If you have that, you have all of it.

For instance, we know that knowledge shall some day pass away. That's a far cry from our position today where every word of the Pure Word of Truth is profitable for reproof (I like that one), for correction and for instruction in righteousness.

Unless you're a Samaritan, I guess.
 
Okay, thanks! It's always fun to run down a side-track with you, Barbarian. I never know where we're going but do enjoy the trip.

"And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel."

Heb 12:24
 
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As always. Digressions can be useful, in their place. And yes, fun. Want to talk about the evidence for a common ancestor?
 
I doubt that we can agree. Would your version include the understanding that Adam was a man who existed historically? He is our "common ancestor". For those who hear what was said to Nicodemus, and are also born of Spirit, Jesus is our common ancestor too.

I like to take the clear teaching from God as given in the Word of Truth into consideration for all things including my examination of bones or stones.
 
Yep. Adam was a real person, as was Eve. Last common human ancestors. There's nothing in the evidence to rule that out. And of course the Church teaches that they are the ancestors of all humans today.
 
I was half-joking about the mice/pig/chimp thing. I say half because a pig-chimp hybrid theory for the origin of humans is a real thing:
http://phys.org/news/2013-07-chimp-pig-hybrid-humans.html
http://www.macroevolution.net/human-origins-2.html#.Un4AfuLflGk
Your links here also mention that the book was halted after more research was done. So, it's not a real thing.

Under that scenario, would the common ancestor be a chimp or pig?
Neither since neither chimps or pigs have ever been in the human evolutionary line.

Networks are going to replace a tree of life, it just might take 20 years. Not just for bacteria but multicellular life as well.
No it won't considering all mammals, birds, reptiles, etc reproduce by sexual selection.

"But given what we now know about prokaryote genome evolution and the contribution of endosymbiosis to eukaryote evolution, it seems rather unlikely that biologists in 20 years will still be using the language of strictly bifurcating trees to describe the relatedness of prokaryotes, and to develop models of microbial evolution."
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2761302/
This is why I'm asking you if you understand what these terms mean. You are saying that this quote supports what you are saying, but it actually says quite the opposite. The quote is talking about lower level eukaryotes and prokaryotes. This will not effect most plants and animals.

"Having uprooted the tree of unicellular life biologists are now taking their axes to the remaining branches. Dr Bapteste said: 'If you don't have a tree of life what does it mean for evolutionary biology. At first it's very scary – but in the past couple of years people have begun to free their minds'."
Charles Darwin's tree of life is 'wrong and misleading', claim scientists - Telegraph
Considering most of that is journalism speak to make the story more interesting. I'll take the actual evidence over speculation.
 
The evidence seems to indicate the "hybridization theory" was a troll for creationists, another of a long line of mean-spirited internet hoaxes mocking ignorance. Not only is it unkind, these things get into the culture, and many people continue to take them seriously. Last year, I read a blog that insisted Neandertals played bagpipes, (in all fairness the original story was not intended to mislead creationists, but it still had that effect)
 
Having uprooted the tree of unicellular life biologists are now taking their axes to the remaining branches. Dr Bapteste said: 'If you don't have a tree of life what does it mean for evolutionary biology. At first it's very scary – but in the past couple of years people have begun to free their minds'."
Charles Darwin's tree of life is 'wrong and misleading', claim scientists - Telegraph
Considering most of that is journalism speak to make the story more interesting. I'll take the actual evidence over speculation.

It wasn't just journalism speak, it was a quote from Dr Bapteste. Dr Dupre said "There are problems even in that little corner" referring to animals and plants.
I don't buy any of the beliefs or theories they are selling, I was just pointing out where things are heading.

This is why I'm asking you if you understand what these terms mean. You are saying that this quote supports what you are saying, but it actually says quite the opposite. The quote is talking about lower level eukaryotes and prokaryotes. This will not effect most plants and animals.

If the quote said the opposite, it would be in support of UCA, which it doesn't. Networks cloud the issue, which is exactly what I'm pointing out.

Also, where this is headed does effect plants and animals since it re-evaluates the concept of species and trees.
 
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If the quote said the opposite, it would be in support of UCA, which it doesn't. Networks cloud the issue, which is exactly what I'm pointing out.

The problem for that outlook, which Bapteste does not support, is that lateral gene transfer (necessary for networks) is quite rare in eukaryotes, which means a phylogenetic tree within the prokaryotes is more of a network, but it is not like that in eukaryotes, as Bapteste points out.

Also, where this is headed does effect plants and animals since it re-evaluates the concept of species and trees.

Nope. In fact, it pretty much solidifies the current understanding, particularly when one of the people most strongly pushing the network idea agrees that it isn't applicable to eukaryotes.

Bapteste, E., Brinkmann, H., Lee, J., Moore, D., Sensen, C., Gordon, P., Durufle, L., Gaasterland, T., Lopez, P., Muller, M. and Philippe, H. (2002) The analysis of 100 genes supports the grouping of three highly divergent amoebae: Dictyostellium, Entamoeba, and Mastigamoeba. Proc. Natl. Acad. Sci. U S A, 99, 1414-1419.

and...

Much of the initial concern over TOL was provoked by biologists studying the complex relationships among prokaryotes, the most primitive life forms that include bacteria and archaea. Prokaryotes have a much simpler DNA structure than eukaryotes (all other life forms). Because of this, prokaryotes often transfer their DNA via processes such as lateral gene transfer as opposed to vertical gene transfer (direct transmission form parent to progeny) which is the basis for the “phylogenetic” (evolutionary relatedness) TOL scheme.


“Surely a tree is the right model for most multi-cellular animals and plants,” Doolittle explained to PhysOrg.com. “Thus the TOL is great for fossils and museums and dinosaurs and most of visible life, over the last billion years. But unicellular eukaryotes and prokaryotes represent the bulk of the biomass and diversity of life on earth, as well as the first two-thirds of its history.”



In their paper, Doolittle and Bapteste highlight research that shows other causes of genetic modification, suggesting that evolutionary history is more complex than described by the TOL. For example, recombination, gene loss, duplication, and gene creation are a few of the processes whereby genes can be transferred within and between species, causing variation that’s not due to vertical transfer. These transfer methods give results that don’t fit on the TOL, including species that cannot be traced to a common ancestor.

http://phys.org/news92912140.html#jCp

It should be noted that Stephen Gould, in Wonderful Life, suggested that perhaps the wide diversity of arthropods in the Cambrian was the result of variations in the genetic toolbox of a primitive arthropod-like ancestor, while there was still a great deal of interchangeability in their genomes. The thought is that later arthropods could share much less, for the same reason that versions of the same bank accounting program in COBOL become increasingly incompatible as people continue to make ad-hoc changes in the code.

Maybe so. But the evidence is incontrovertible . Oh, and my copy of Bergey's Manual of Determinative Bacteriology, seventh edition, 1969, is of mostly historical interest; the classification of bacteria has changed greatly. I have a degree in bacteriology, and I never saw a "tree" of common descent for them. Even then, it was clear that a great deal of gene-sharing had gone on. So nearly a half-century later, the breathless announcement by the popular press about prokaryotic networking, really doesn't impress anyone familiar with the literature.

Which is why those DNA analyses so precisely confirm the tree of life proposed by Linnaeus, the anatomical data, and the evidence from paleontology; they really are indicators of common descent. The fact that prokaryotes pass genes around laterally, doesn't affect eukaryotes.

Just saying...
 

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