Objections to Grace, Examined Carefully, Answered ,and Rejected

[Iconoclast]

To start the new year, let's take a look back at some of the objections that are offered against the grace of God which is known by the label Calvinism. Feel free to list your" strongman arguments". You will receive biblical answers, you might not like them, but they will come one after another. Feel free to express yourself!

 

[Hopeful 2]

To start the new year, let's take a look back at some of the objections that are offered against the grace of God which is known by the label Calvinism. Feel free to list your" strongman arguments". You will receive biblical answers, you might not like them, but they will come one after another. Feel free to express yourself!

The grace of God is known by the label Calvinism ?
What was the grace of God known by before Calvin came along ?

 

[journeyman]

Personally I have no objection to Jesus continuing to offer to offer forgivness to people who hated Him, instead of annihilating them. That's grace every day.

Here's what Jesus said,

“If you love only those who love you, why should you get credit for that? Even sinners love those who love them! Mt.5:46 NLT

Of course our example is God, who loves not only His Son, but His enemies also.

See, that's what our Lords' cross showed. Our Creator having terrible things done to Him by sinners without destroying them,

Yet he was merciful and forgave their sins
and did not destroy them all. Many times he held back his anger and did not unleash his fury! Psa78.38 NLT

Thank you Father Son and Spirit!

 

[Iconoclast]

The grace of God is known by the label Calvinism ?
What was the grace of God known by before Calvin came along ?

Hello Hopeful. Although many people use the label Calvinism in an attempted derogatory manner, One thing the label does stand for is the GRACE of God. It should be sufficient to just say, the grace of God, However those with a works gospel, or a man centered theology obscure the truth so it has developed into a situation where many clarifying terms are used to show distinctions.
Saving grace
Efficacious grace
Persevering grace
Sanctifying grace

At this point in time there is a need to discuss Calvinism separate from the Person of John Calvin himself.

 

[Iconoclast]

Personally I have no objection to Jesus continuing to offer to offer forgivness to people who hated Him, instead of annihilating them. That's grace every day.

That would fall under the long suffering of God. Those sinners will indeed be judged, by God extends the time for them to hear the gospel of the kingdom.

Here's what Jesus said,

“If you love only those who love you, why should you get credit for that? Even sinners love those who love them! Mt.5:46 NLT

Yes, he taught that as far as personal ethics and conduct extend,

Of course our example is God, who loves not only His Son, but His enemies also.

God sends His Son in love to a fallen world. The love is offered In Christ. That offer has an expiration date, Heb (9:27]

See, that's what our Lords' cross showed. Our Creator having terrible things done to Him by sinners without destroying them,

He came to die as the Divine substitute

Yet he was merciful and forgave their sins
and did not destroy them all. Many times he held back his anger and did not unleash his fury! Psa78.38 NLT

Again, the full wrath will be revealed on the last day.

Thank you Father Son and Spirit!

Yes, Indeed!

 

[Hopeful 2]

Hello Hopeful. Although many people use the label Calvinism in an attempted derogatory manner, One thing the label does stand for is the GRACE of God. It should be sufficient to just say, the grace of God, However those with a works gospel, or a man centered theology obscure the truth so it has developed into a situation where many clarifying terms are used to show distinctions.
Saving grace
Efficacious grace
Persevering grace
Sanctifying grace

At this point in time there is a need to discuss Calvinism separate from the Person of John Calvin himself.

Not being familiar with his teachings, I must ask...does he write that man can be perfectly obedient to God ?
Or is it his view that God makes men commit sin, and we have no control over ourselves ?

 

[Iconoclast]

On the other thread, the poster
Sola scriptura has offered these comments

Click to expand...

John 3.16 to 18 destroys the TULI in TULIP!
Lets look

Because it is UNBIBLICAL HERESY

let's look;

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

How does this destroy Total Depravity?
Unconditional election?
Limited atonement?
Irresistible grace?

Those who believe in tulip agree and enjoy Jn 3:16-18. On what basis do you claim anything is destroyed.The verses are true and do not change these teaching at all.

You will not be able to show from the passage in John that God's Saving Love is not for the entire human race, every single human.

 

[Iconoclast]

Exactly right! As a "substitute" or "in place of" or "in stead of" The Divine,

He is a substitute for believing sinners, not for "The Divine"

The Lord is not slow concerning his promise, as some regard slowness, but is being patient toward you, because he does not wish for any to perish but for all to come to repentance. 2Pet.3:9 NET

Not one of those Peter is speaking of will perish, he is speaking of the elect.

 

[Iconoclast]

No. He's the reason not only Jews, but gentiles should repent of sinning against God.

This is not the issue

Do you understand "the sacrifice" is God, right?

God does not die on the cross. God is Spirit He does not have a body.
Whatever you are trying to say, you are not wording it correctly.

I just posted scripture showing you what Jesus said about Himself and His Father and you say no.

The trinity is not the focus here.

I have also posted many passages plainly showing that God forbids substitutionary sacrifice,

Wrong...The whole Ot. sacrificial system is about substitionary sacrifice.
What do you think the day of atonement was about?

simply because He is The Just Judge. He holds the guilty responsible,

ok

not the Innocent (Himself, His Son)

you miss a central part of the gospel as you miss this;2 cor5
21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Iconoclast,
Do you know what "stead" means?

2Cor.5 just showed it.... For he hath made him to be sin for us,

And the elect are people who choose to believe the gospel,

ALL THOSE ELECTED TO SALVATION BELIEVE...they are called to it.

they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham. Gal.3:9 KJV

yes

And just so everyone knows,

he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God and keep it. Lk.11:28 KJV

okay

 

[Iconoclast]

Many who resist grace do so by explaining it away and make it man centered rather than
God centered. The idol of free will is turned to rather than what scripture declares about mans sinful condition

 

[Iconoclast]

The bible teaches what is known as Limited Atonement.
Does that mean only a few people are saved?
No, because scripture is clear that a great Multitude that no man can number will be saved.
Everyone limits the atonement.

 

[Iconoclast]

From are article from Pastor Josh Buice
3. Charles Spurgeon
“There is a prevalent opinion that says that Calvinism should be, if it is discussed at all, reserved for more mature Christians, not taught to new converts, and certainly never ever preached to the unbelievers in an evangelistic message. This is one result of the idea that Calvinism is somehow incompatible with evangelism. From the several sermons quoted, it is obvious that Spurgeon did not believe that Calvinism should be hidden from the unconverted nor the new believer. Why? Because Calvinism is the Gospel:

There is no such thing as preaching Christ and Him crucified, unless we preach what nowadays is called Calvinism. It is a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else. I do not believe we can preach the gospel, if we do not preach justification by faith, without works; nor unless we preach the sovereignty of God in His dispensation of grace; nor unless we exalt the electing, unchangeable, eternal, immutable, conquering love of Jehovah; nor do I think we can preach the gospel, unless we base it upon the special and particular redemption of His elect and chosen people which Christ wrought out upon the cross; nor can I comprehend a gospel which lets saints fall away after they are called . . . , after having once believed in Jesus. Such a gospel I abhor.

 

[Iconoclast]

The bible teaches what is known as Limited Atonement.
Does that mean only a few people are saved?
No, because scripture is clear that a great Multitude that no man can number will be saved.
Everyone limits the atonement.

Do you have any support for these ideas?
Yes, let's take a look at what scripture declares on who Jesus died for.

Jn10;11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.
eph5;
25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
Acts20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
Mt.25:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

Mt.13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers,
Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them:
but gather the wheat into my barn.

If Jesus died for all men, there would be no reason to distinguish the SHEEP, CHURCH, WHEAT... because they would be included automatically.
Why would Paul have to write-
the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

If the death was equal for all, he would have no need to repeat it.

 

[Iconoclast]

Recently a discussion took place concerning Jn 6:37-44.
The poster Wondering stated she agreed with the points made, until she did'nt
She could not face the reality of the discussion of the text, so she tried to squirm out of the text and redefine the words that she had agreed toIt does not make her a bad person, but clearly it was less than an honest attempt to work through the verses here;
here is our text;
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

41 The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven.

42 And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?

43 Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

This is the Covenant of Redemption planned in eternity past, and unfolding in Jesus ministry.

 

[journeyman]

If Jesus died for all men, there would be no reason to distinguish the SHEEP, CHURCH, WHEAT... because they would be included automatically.
Why would Paul have to write-
the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

If the death was equal for all, he would have no need to repeat it.

That's the point. It never was repeated because it was Gods' blood,

this he did once, when he offered up himself. Heb.7:27 KJV

For the life of the flesh is in the blood Lev.17:11 KJV

Poured His.....life out!

Hey, our High Priest sprinkled His life on Gods' Throne and then sat on the Throne.
That's not what Aaron did,

He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment suppose ye shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
Heb.10:28-29

Btw Iconoclast,
I have resoonded to your prior posts, but my replies have all been deleted. I hope you have an opportunity to read this one, because it sounds like stomping on Jesus and counting Gods' life unholy are the same thing.

 

[Iconoclast]

That's the point. It never was repeated because it was Gods' blood,

this he did once, when he offered up himself. Heb.7:27 KJV

For the life of the flesh is in the blood Lev.17:11 KJV

Poured His.....life out!

Hey, our High Priest sprinkled His life on Gods' Throne and then sat on the Throne.
That's not what Aaron did,

He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment suppose ye shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
Heb.10:28-29

Btw Iconoclast,
I have resoonded to your prior posts, but my replies have all been deleted. I hope you have an opportunity to read this one, because it sounds like stomping on Jesus and counting Gods' life unholy are the same thing.

Who is deleting, or censoring your posts? I hate censorship.
I have my own web site, because I hate what moderators do by editing and deleting posts.

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[Iconoclast]

That's the point. It never was repeated because it was Gods' blood,

That is not what I was getting at. let me clarify. If the bible taught that Jesus died for every single person, it would be redundant to say...he died for the Church. The Church would be included under"every single person"

I would not have to say...he died for the Sheep....or he died for journeyman

this he did once, when he offered up himself. Heb.7:27 KJV

For the life of the flesh is in the blood Lev.17:11 KJV

Poured His.....life out!

These things are not in dispute

Btw Iconoclast,
I have resoonded to your prior posts, but my replies have all been deleted.

Did you call me a name or something? why were they deleted? You can call me names if you need to, I am not a snowflake who needs protection by some TOS. rule that someone uses to their own advantage

I hope you have an opportunity to read this one, because it sounds like stomping on Jesus and counting Gods' life unholy are the same thing.

That verse was speaking about Apostates

 

[journeyman]

Who is deleting, or censoring your posts?

I don't know but I don't think I broke any rules. Maybe I did.

I hate censorship.

Me too, unless it's a comment we all can't laugh at ourselves about.

I have my own web site, because I hate what moderators do by editing and deleting posts.

Home | Bibleinteraction

Visit our forum at: bibleinteraction.freeforums.net

bibleinteraction.freeforums.net

I have collected much source material, sermons and videos. Some are my own , but most are links copied and pasted. The idea is if you find a topic of interst from one of the links...copy it, then paste it in the general discussion page near the bottom, you need to scroll all the way down. Then interaction can take place there.
Most do not participate, as the links are long and require reading time, nore than a sentence or two.

Discussions of previously posted topics...you will not be censored here, no bogus TOS rules​

	Board	Threads	Posts	Last Post
	Open Forum Discussions Pick out a sentence or paragraph for discussion

General Discussion You can talk about anything here. Moderator: Admin

Thank you for posting that. I'm not big on reading or listening to long commentaries, but I would like to check it out.

 

[journeyman]

That is not what I was getting at. let me clarify. If the bible taught that Jesus died for every single person, it would be redundant to say...he died for the Church. The Church would be included under"every single person"

We don't forget where we came from bro.

ye were without Christ Eph.2:12 KJV
we ourselves also were sometimes foolish Tit.3:3 KJV

I would not have to say...he died for the Sheep....or he died for journeyman

So when I see the Shepherd looking for me and calling to me, I better follow Him cause sheep who don't follow Him aren't sheep,

These things are not in dispute

They are when it says what hsppened to Jesus is no different than despising His Father. Honestly examining all the scriptures through that lens is like placing each oiece of a jigsaw puzzle perfectly the first time.

Did you call me a name or something? why were they deleted? You can call me names if you need to, I am not a snowflake who needs protection by some TOS. rule that someone uses to their own advantage

I'm sure I didn't but I'm not above it. I have no idea.

That verse was speaking about Apostates

Absolutely along with idol worshipping gentiles. That's another big key to understanding Paul and how his knowledge of the law before and after knowing Jesus changed.

 

[journeyman]

Iconoclast,
I visited your website. I think you did a good job on it. It's informative and easy to follow. It's also very impressive from a reformers point of view, but that isn't my cup of tea, because I'm really no longer interested in what this giy said or that guy. Same goes for Paul who wrote a good portion of scripture because Paul himself said,
For while one saith, Iam of Paul; and another, I am ofApollos; are ye not carnal? 1Cor.3:4 KJV

He said Look at what Jesus said first.
I would join and talk to you there, but I know the reformed position, 5 solas, rite of baptism, sacraments, etc. It's dry reading for me. Not because I'm a know-it-all, but because I belonged to a Reformed Baptist Church for many years. That was the only "Christian teaching" I knew.

It's like I was looking at Jesus the way humanity sees things. The way we as humans perceive good and evil, justice and injustice, mercy and cruelty, versus how our Heavenly Father sees them.