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Of Miracles

S

SyntaxVorlon

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What exactly is a miracle? I'm curious to find out what the common view is in this day and age, and I came across an interesting passage in Spinoza:

Baruch de Espinoza said:
For the common people suppose that God's power and providence are most clearly displayed when some unusual event occurs in Nature contrary to their habitual beliefs concerning Nature, particularly if such an event is to their profit or advantage. They consider that the clearest possible evidence of God's existence is provided when Nature deviates-- as they think-- from her proper order. Therefore they believe that all those who explain phenomena and miracles through natural causes, or who strive to understand them so, are doing away with God, or at least God's providence. They consider that God is inactive all the while that Nature pursues her normal course, and, conversely, that Nature's power and natural causes are suspended as long as God is acting. Thus they imagine that there are two powers quite distinct from each other, the power of God and the power of Nature, though the latter is determined in a definite way by God, or as is the prevailing opinion nowadays, created by God. What they mean by the two powers, and what by God and Nature, they have no idea, except that they imagine God's power to to be like that of some royal potentate, and Nature's power to be a kind of force and energy.

I find this passage interesting in that it speaks very clearly to sola scriptura religion yet is at the same time attempting to bring a sort of pantheism into the mix by combining God and Nature.
 
THE BIBLE IS VERY CLEAR..

It says that God is always active - "God never sleeps or slumbers" says Psalms - search the words @ http://www.BibleGateway.org - prob Isaiah 5

Hebrews says that He sustains the world He created

But you asked what is a miracle, yes?

A Wed lunchtime Bible study @ KIngsway Christiian Centre, Waterloo, LIverpool - signposted at the "5 Lamps" - covered this very thoroughly, just @ 5/6 weeks ago

Sadly, auto;logout looms, so I just have time to encourage readers to search @ signs, wonders & miracles on that site I gave

John's Gospel famously uses the Greek word, seimion, translated usually as "sign", to indicate that God has purposes in doing extraordinary things

Jesus said, "If you don't believe My words, believe the signs/wonders/miracles that I do"

They were to confirm that He is God in human form

For astounding examples of modern healing miracles, done on E European TV & all medically attested, see http://www.propheticvision.org & click "healings"

Must go

God bless!

Ian
 
Yes, but if god makes it so that his believers can heal peole how is it a miracle? It's perfectly natural since God decreed it to be so, and thus is a part of nature.

Being part of the natural way of things how is it any different from any other decree that god gives, any other law of nature?
 
This may help clarify some things.

"Providence is God’s faithful, moment-by-moment control over everything He has made to ensure that everything He has created achieves the end He has chosen. I’ll read that again, Providence is God’s faithful, moment-by-moment control over everything He has made to ensure that it achieves the end He has chosen."

"Now, what is a miracle? Another definition: In a Biblical sense “a miracle is an extraordinary work of God that involves His immediate and unmistakable intervention in the physical realm in a way that contravenes natural processes.†"

These are both quotes from Phil Johnson from this link. He goes into more detail if you want to read it.

http://www.biblebb.com/files/combating_ ... eology.htm

Dave
 
Dave... said:
This may help clarify some things.

"Providence is God’s faithful, moment-by-moment control over everything He has made to ensure that everything He has created achieves the end He has chosen. I’ll read that again, Providence is God’s faithful, moment-by-moment control over everything He has made to ensure that it achieves the end He has chosen."

"Now, what is a miracle? Another definition: In a Biblical sense “a miracle is an extraordinary work of God that involves His immediate and unmistakable intervention in the physical realm in a way that contravenes natural processes.†"

These are both quotes from Phil Johnson from this link. He goes into more detail if you want to read it.

http://www.biblebb.com/files/combating_ ... eology.htm

Dave
How does the mysterious healing of an illness or the earth standing still for a day show the intervention of an infinite power has occured. There is a limit to the amount of control on causality employed in any miracle, it only takes so much power to to heal someone. Why should an act of limited intervention show that an infinite agent exists?
 
SyntaxVorlon said:
... or the earth standing still for a day ... Why should an act of limited intervention show that an infinite agent exists?


Well, miracles are usually defined by the masses as an "act of God" aside from another extraordinary occurance or something viewed as next to impossible. Me winning the lottery may not be viewed as a miracle by spiritual definition but simply as chance since somebody has to win anyway. But something like extending the length of a day or Christ feeding the multitudes isn't so easily defined by chance.

Since "Act of God" is the focus of a believer's definition of "miracle" then it follows that one must believe God exists in the first place for a miracle to occur. And I suppose a non-believer will invariably define "miracle" another way excluding God so it's like comparing apples to oranges.

One dictionary defines "miracle" as:

1: any amazing or wonderful occurrence
2: a marvellous event manifesting a supernatural act of God

So depending whether you believe God exists or not dictates which definition one accepts.
 
Re: THE BIBLE IS VERY CLEAR..

MrVersatile48 said:
Jesus said, "If you don't believe My words, believe the signs/wonders/miracles that I do"

Matthew 11:20-24 (KJV)

(20) Then began he to upbraid the cities wherein most of his mighty works were done, because they repented not: (21) Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. (22) But I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the day of judgment, than for you. (23) And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day. (24) But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee.


In fact, Jesus threatens cities, if they are not sufficiently impressed with his "mighty works".
 
Re: THE BIBLE IS VERY CLEAR..

MrVersatile48 said:
Jesus said, "If you don't believe My words, believe the signs/wonders/miracles that I do"


Jesus was obviously unaware of what the Old Testament says-


Deuteronomy 13:1-6 (Judaica Press)

(1) Everything I command you that you shall be careful to do it. You shall neither add to it, nor subtract from it. (2) If there will arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of a dream, and he gives you a sign or a wonder, (3) and the sign or the wonder of which he spoke to you happens, [and he] says, "Let us go after other gods which you have not known, and let us worship them," (4) you shall not heed the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of a dream; for the Lord, your God, is testing you, to know whether you really love the Lord, your God, with all your heart and with all your soul. (5) You shall follow the Lord, your God, fear Him, keep His commandments, heed His voice, worship Him, and cleave to Him. (6) And that prophet, or that dreamer of a dream shall be put to death; because he spoke falsehood about the Lord...
 
I don't recall any part of the Bible in which Jesus advocated worshipping other gods as that passage warns. Perhaps you could enlighten me? :-?
 
Muad'Dib said:
I don't recall any part of the Bible in which Jesus advocated worshipping other gods as that passage warns. Perhaps you could enlighten me? :-?


(a) Jesus wasn't God?
(b) Jesus being God would be acceptable to Judaism?


There are instances in the New Testament where Jesus is worshipped, and he does nothing to stop it. I would guess that would be a completely unacceptable heresy to Judaism.
 
There are three definitions of miracle that get commonly used:
Common miracles - eg the miracle of birth, the miracle of life etc
Uncommon miracles - eg winning lotto, surviving a car crash etc
And Supernatural miracles - eg talking animals, walking on water, healing by touch. Generally anything that breaks the natural laws.
Obviously we are really interested in seeing/experiencing this third type as it proves supernatural claims, while the other two types are both possible within nature.
 
PotLuck said:
SyntaxVorlon said:
... or the earth standing still for a day ... Why should an act of limited intervention show that an infinite agent exists?


Well, miracles are usually defined by the masses as an "act of God" aside from another extraordinary occurance or something viewed as next to impossible. Me winning the lottery may not be viewed as a miracle by spiritual definition but simply as chance since somebody has to win anyway. But something like extending the length of a day or Christ feeding the multitudes isn't so easily defined by chance.

Since "Act of God" is the focus of a believer's definition of "miracle" then it follows that one must believe God exists in the first place for a miracle to occur. And I suppose a non-believer will invariably define "miracle" another way excluding God so it's like comparing apples to oranges.

One dictionary defines "miracle" as:

1: any amazing or wonderful occurrence
2: a marvellous event manifesting a supernatural act of God

So depending whether you believe God exists or not dictates which definition one accepts.
Assume I've suspended my disbelief for a moment.

I'm not excluding God from my argument, I'm saying that it's impossible to show that God exists by pointing to something odd that happened in nature, since anything that happens in nature is already attributable to God. So if it's something like an eclipse and the agrarian desert dwelling Isrealites on the ground don't know anything about Celestial Mechanics, then they'll say it is a direct act of God, or even if it is a direct act of God, say that he decided to block out the sun for some mysterious reason, in either case God is the ultimate cause of both. But in neither case do the desert dwellers know what God is up to, to them it might be some other intelligent agent which could exert control over reality, Metatron for instance. All that they might possibly say from their belief that it is some agent acting, they cannot conclude rationally that it is God.
 
DivineNames said:
Muad'Dib said:
I don't recall any part of the Bible in which Jesus advocated worshipping other gods as that passage warns. Perhaps you could enlighten me? :-?


(a) Jesus wasn't God?
(b) Jesus being God would be acceptable to Judaism?


There are instances in the New Testament where Jesus is worshipped, and he does nothing to stop it. I would guess that would be a completely unacceptable heresy to Judaism.

I don't think so. Those lines clearly state "god or gods." Jesus is neither. He is the Son of God, and does not claim to be God or a god himself. Therefore it does not break that law at all.
 
SyntaxVorlon said:
I'm not excluding God from my argument, I'm saying that it's impossible to show that God exists by pointing to something odd that happened in nature, since anything that happens in nature is already attributable to God. So if it's something like an eclipse and the agrarian desert dwelling Isrealites on the ground don't know anything about Celestial Mechanics, then they'll say it is a direct act of God, or even if it is a direct act of God, say that he decided to block out the sun for some mysterious reason, in either case God is the ultimate cause of both. But in neither case do the desert dwellers know what God is up to, to them it might be some other intelligent agent which could exert control over reality, Metatron for instance. All that they might possibly say from their belief that it is some agent acting, they cannot conclude rationally that it is God.

And so it goes.
Believers of God begin with the premise that God is the first elemental player or creator of an event interpreted as a miracle. What you're saying is the other way around... that the first element is the miracle itself, the event to be interpreted as proof of the creator of the miracle.

In the same way many look at God's Creation then attempt to extrapolate backward to prove whether God needs to exist or not. The believer begins with God then comes to seeing His Creation with an opposing point of view. A non-believer comes with a forensics point of view that must prove how creation came to be. Ours is believing the Creator's confession.

If I have a ring at the base of a bush that can be slipped over and away from the bush that doesn't mean I can go the other way to get the ring over the bush to rest at it's base.

Miracles begin with God. God doesn't begin with miracles... depends on where one first begins.
 
Muad'Dib said:
I don't think so. Those lines clearly state "god or gods." Jesus is neither. He is the Son of God, and does not claim to be God or a god himself. Therefore it does not break that law at all.


Are you trying to find a loophole? I don't find it convincing. Where does it say that you are allowed to go off and worship a "Son of God"? If that were acceptable, I'm sure the O.T. would have said so. To worship Jesus would clearly break the intent of those verses.

But what if Jesus was genuinely the God (or part of it...) that the Jews were already worshipping? It wouldn't help the situation, because how would Jews know that?

By the way, I think many Christians believe that Jesus was/is actually God, and did claim to be God. (At least implicitly.)

See-

http://www.tektonics.org/jesusclaims/je ... mshub.html
http://www.jcsm.org/biblelessons/JesusGod.htm
http://www.gotquestions.org/is-Jesus-God.html
 
DivineNames

Read the passage carefully. Its not a loophole.

and the sign or the wonder of which he spoke to you happens, [and he] says, "Let us go after other gods which you have not known, and let us worship them," (4) you shall not heed the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of a dream; for the Lord, your God, is testing you, to know whether you really love the Lord, your God, with all your heart and with all your soul.

That seems like the most relevant part to me. It says, do not obey prophets who tell you to worship another god or gods. Jesus did not do this. He advocated the worship of the one true God an innumerable amount of times. There is no doubt where he stood on that, he was transferring the wisdom of God onto humanity.

But people do worship Jesus, there's no doubt about it. However, worshipping Jesus as the Messiah is completely different. Keep in mind the Old Testament mentions the Messiah, so God obviously had no problem with the concept. And Jesus never claims to be equal to God or a god himself. I just don't see how that can apply to Jesus.

By the way, I think many Christians believe that Jesus was/is actually God, and did claim to be God. (At least implicitly.)

That's their right. But I don't see how that has any relevance for me.
 
Muad'Dib said:
Read the passage carefully. Its not a loophole.

and the sign or the wonder of which he spoke to you happens, [and he] says, "Let us go after other gods which you have not known, and let us worship them," (4) you shall not heed the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of a dream; for the Lord, your God, is testing you, to know whether you really love the Lord, your God, with all your heart and with all your soul.

That seems like the most relevant part to me. It says, do not obey prophets who tell you to worship another god or gods. Jesus did not do this. He advocated the worship of the one true God an innumerable amount of times. There is no doubt where he stood on that, he was transferring the wisdom of God onto humanity.

If he pointed people to the "one true God", and yet also allowed himself to be worshipped, I would think that to be heretical to Judaism.


Muad'Dib said:
But people do worship Jesus, there's no doubt about it. However, worshipping Jesus as the Messiah is completely different. Keep in mind the Old Testament mentions the Messiah, so God obviously had no problem with the concept. And Jesus never claims to be equal to God or a god himself. I just don't see how that can apply to Jesus.


If I correctly understand you, your argument here is completely absurd. If God has no problem with the concept of Messiah, this is completely different from the worship of the Messiah being acceptable. This would never be acceptable in Judaism.

Do you believe its acceptable to worship things less than God?

Are you really saying that the Jews could worship things other than the one God, if they didn't see them as equal to God? There was no prohibition against that?
 
Sort of. It depends upon whether they worship them on an equal level to God. Jesus was a representative of God's will. He clearly was not claiming to be a god or God himself. He did say that salvation could only be found through him. So is being repenant to Christ a form of worship that is prohibited by Judaism? I suppose that could be argued. But I don't see the validity for such a claim. The passage clearly denounces prophets who claim to be God or a god. It mentions nothing about Messiahs claiming to be the Son of God and lesser than God. You need to loosely interpret the text to apply it to Jesus.
 
How does the mysterious healing of an illness or the earth standing still for a day show the intervention of an infinite power has occured. There is a limit to the amount of control on causality employed in any miracle, it only takes so much power to to heal someone. Why should an act of limited intervention show that an infinite agent exists?

Sorry, I just now read read this. this is from the same link provided earlier.

"(Ephesians 1:11). “He works all things after the council of His own will,†Romans 8:28, “We know that God causes all things to work together for good…†Proverbs 16:33 says, “The lot is cast into the lap; but the whole disposing thereof is of the LORD.†In other words, when you cast lots it may appear to bring forth random results, but in fact, God controls every roll of the dice and every flip of the coin...

Scripture speaks of Christ “Upholding all things by the Word of His power†(Hebrews 1:3). And we are told that, “He is before all things and by Him all things consist.†Consistently, Scripture teaches us that God is in control of every atom and every quark in the universe.

When Jesus said, “No sparrow would fall to the ground apart from the Father;†When He said, “All the hairs on our head are numbered,†He was saying, “God governs those things by His providence.†By the way, that wasn’t a point about God’s omniscience. It isn’t that God knows how many hairs you got--it is that He numbers the hairs on your head. It isn’t that He knows when the sparrow falls--it’s that he determines these things. He’s in control. God governs these things by His loving providence."

It is really not the question to ask about a limited intervention.

Romans 1:22-21For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, Because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened.

John came not eating and not drinking, preaching hell fire and they called him crazy. Jesus came eating and drinking offering rest and they condemmed Him also.

Whether we come preaching the wedding or the funeral, nothing will satisfy those seeking miracles. They only want to disagree with everything. this illistration is speaking of children playing "wedding" and playing "funeral".

Matthew 11:16-30 But to what shall I liken this generation? It is like children sitting in the marketplaces and calling to their companions, And saying: 'We played the flute for you, And you did not dance; We mourned to you, And you did not lament.' For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, 'He has a demon.' The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Look, a glutton and a winebibber, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!' But wisdom is justified by her children."

Then He began to rebuke the cities in which most of His mighty works had been done, because they did not repent: "Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the mighty works which were done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. But I say to you, it will be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon in the day of judgment than for you. And you, Capernaum, who are exalted to heaven, will be brought down to Hades; for if the mighty works which were done in you had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day. But I say to you that it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment than for you."

At that time Jesus answered and said, "I thank You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and prudent and have revealed them to babes. Even so, Father, for so it seemed good in Your sight. All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father. Nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him. Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For My yoke is easy and My burden is light."
 
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