Bible Study Olam and Eon Study

[bacord]

http://www.concordant.org/expohtml/Deat ... dging.html

http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/eon1.html

http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/eon2.html

I feel this type of study could be considered controversial I don't really understand why.
It is a biblical issue that I never hear taught by any pastor.
Being limited in my Bible Knowledge I may not know why it is never looked at.
Maybe there is a good reason for it.
I will warn you tho if you just skim thru it you will miss many many many points.
So here is hoping you will put these in your favorites and spend sometime in study.
It cleared many questions I had about Gods punishments and What they really mean.

A word of understanding example. "Study to show thyself approved."
I went through this in the greek the word study is translated diligent.
To me this gives this a whole new meaning. Being diligent means much more then study
It also imply s put it into practice or continual

Here is one more interpretation
Concordant Literal
II Timothy 2
15 Endeavor to present yourself to God qualified, an unashamed worker, correctly cutting the word of truth.

I promise you if you are a seeker of truth these two words Olam and eon will help you very much.

Gods richest blessings to one and all.

 

[cyberjosh]

The reason it is controversial is because it is a primary playgroud for universal reconcilliationists who make out the entire Bible to never make a single reference to anything of eternal duration. Olam and Aeon both originally denoted a unspecified amount of time or an age, but context dictates its usage (as it does for all words of the Bible), and when either word is used in a context of "without end", like God's reign being without end, it clearly brings about the sense of eternity. Same with ideas of unquenchable flames etc. Else torment in hell is only for an "age" and an all-loving God who forgets former transgressions, even blasphemy against himself undoes someones personal decision to reject God, since they didn't want a relationship, and after a "trial period" in the flames of Hell brings them into a relationship with Him (regardless of their former will & conduct). Thus God reconciles all things unto himself. That is a clear abuse of Scripture, and that is why I council caution when studying this topic. In some contexts it is used as an indeterminate amount of time, but not with any super-important issues like hell, etc. Different ages are mentioned as periods of God's dispensation to man on earth, in which Olam it used in that way more than once, but like I said context always determines the meaning.

God Bless,

~Josh

 

[cyberjosh]

I was right about the leanings of one of those sites, in that they try to interject the indeterminate amount of time to the duration of people in Hell. And that same page (the Auburn one - page 2) even mentions Universal Reconcilliation. And BTW, Universal reconcilliation is not recieved kindly on this forum, and you can be kicked off for promoting its views. I'm not sure if you were ignorant to the whole olam/eon/universal reconcillation tie or not, but I'm atleast giving you fair warning now. If you are just newly learning about this whole area of study with Olam & Aeon I urge you not to get caught up in the "excitement" of "new & hidden" scholarly knowledge (Gnostics - who named themselves after "knowledge" - cherished their heretical "secret knowledge" and made a sect out of it), for when people do that (if they get too caught up in the excitement of it) they most often get carried away and go off the deep end and turn into a heretic. You can acknowledge significant & important findings in scholarship and yet treat it with moderation.

If you would like to discuss however its meaning in certain contexts as a Bible study I would be happy to oblige in a little textual exegesis with you. Is that what you were hoping to do from the start?

God Bless,

~Josh

 

[bacord]

cybershark5886 I don’t know who you are. I have read some of your post.
I also really do not know who the Administrator is.

1st John says if you denieth Christ as the son of God you are the Antichrist.
I would never do that and I feel I can call him Lord. John says you can’t do that unless you believe.
I was home alone when the Lord Jesus came into my life. I was reading a Bible the Gideon’s had given me. I accepted the Lord and he has blessed me and protected me through all kinds of problems never leaving me nor forsaking me.

With that being said I have to admit I have really had more problems with so called Christians then from any others.

Now understand I am not an unbeliever and you just said unless I conform to some standard in my belief beyond what John says I will get kicked off as a heretic.

I am a studier of Gods word and do not come to believe just anything that people teach and tell me.

I have had my pastor tell me he doesn’t like the concordant literal bible.
You know why? It is because it proves him wrong in his things he teaches.

I f you or anyone else wish to try to take away my freedom in Christ to study and believe how I wish as long as I am a believer in my Savior.

Then the “Christian†so called can kick me out.

This is supposed to be a forum and interchanging of information.

If I wish to believe after years of study that God wishes to salvage his creation completely by totally destroying evil. I am now a Gnostic and a heretic.

I am afraid you will have to explain to me many scriptures that allude to his salvaging.
If a man who knows better does evil he will punished with many stripes.
If a man doesn’t know to do better then he will be punished with few stripes.
What about the scripture that a man shall be saved like going trough a wall of fire.
He suffers loss he himself shall be saved.

I don’t believe you read what I posted you did not heed what I warned.
You skimmed through it and in your great knowledge you now know I am a heretic
If I don’t believe as you say I must.

I am picking on your post to only illustrate how Christians act and how they really are hard to discuss anything with.

My freedom in Christ they wish to take away.

This great salvaging of his creation is the tree I lean against.
Eon comes from the word Olam. Olam means veiled so Time and ages belong to God to start and to end. Forever is broken down into different ages (eons).
You wish to believe in Dante's inferno. I am sorry for you if that is what you believe.
So report me and kick this heretic off.

 

[cyberjosh]

Bacord,

I understand your concerns and nature of your sincerity. I assure you, I am not one of those "so-called" Christians (1 Corinthians 5:11). But let me make clear the nature of the warning I gave you. The warning of being banned is a forum law, I cannot change the forum law or guide lines. However I as an intellectual, a firm Bible believer, a scholar, and a teacher wish to give even those that might be led into error a chance to discuss their beliefs, and if at all possible be able to correct errant doctrine where I see it with the Word of God. Now I'll come up front and say I do not believe in Universal Reconcillation (UR), and that is the stance I will take, but I am not going to forcibly have you removed because you differ in opinion from me on this issue. If I were you however I would be careful as many aren't quite as tolerant as I (to allow people to discuss opposing views), therefore I would not recommend you widely publicise a positive view of UR on this board or you will get kicked off (as per forum law). But if you want to discuss it here I'm not going to prevent you from doing so. I only have personal interests in the matter of making sure the Scripture is not twisted and is instead properly applied.

Now, with all that said if you would like to present a certain argument for me to discuss with you, please do. I would like words from your own mouth and direct Scripture applications by you, rather than pointing to sites if you don't mind. I am educated as to this matter so I know the background of it. I will try my best to answer with candor and accurate application of the Word of God in turn.

God Bless,

~Josh

 

[cyberjosh]

I did notice that you gave me a small list of things to answer:

I am afraid you will have to explain to me many scriptures that allude to his salvaging.
If a man who knows better does evil he will punished with many stripes.
If a man doesn’t know to do better then he will be punished with few stripes.
What about the scripture that a man shall be saved like going trough a wall of fire.
He suffers loss he himself shall be saved.

Ok. What else? I will answer these but I would like to tackle all your concerns at the same time. So now that we have the ball rolling on this, I would like to see a full comprehensive post in defense of your view.

Thanks,

~Josh

 

[bacord]

cybershark5886
Part of your remarks "I would not recommend you widely publicize a positive view on ur"
For one thing I am not a new Christian and it has taken many years to come to te conclusions that
I have come to.
First and foremost I will never say I have all the answers and I will not debate the bible I will discuss.
As far as giving you scriptures I am concerned about I don't have any I feel to much concern about.
Like I said I don't mind being kicked off for my beliefs I have what John says is necessary to be called a believer.
Paul went into the synagogues and preached when they would not accept the truth he left taking the believers with him.So if I am kicked off it will not bother me one bit.
Christ was in a room and was pressed so hard by people he could not sit down.
He had been healing. The church leaders I call them "suits" said his work was of the Devil.
Christ answer was if you say the work of the spirit is the work of the devil then you blaspheme.
If you the Admin or anyone else says I am a heretic and a gnostic when I am not and if I belong to Jesus as much as anyone else and you reject me you tell me what you are guilty of.

I will comply to the rules of this forum I do not remember reading that one.

 

[cyberjosh]

Great...Thanks for giving me a post to work with....

Now really, can we get past our initial differences and discuss this? Please give a post with a certain focal point: hell is not eternal, redemption is for all - whether or not you choose Jesus in this life, long term vs. short term redemption plan, something.... Just give me something to work with. Like I said I will answer that short list you have already given, but I need more.

~Josh

 

[bacord]

Now with the above post and I suppose I must show you much due respect as you say you are a scholar.
I am not a scholar. I don't think any of the original 12 was either.
I am a old man of 71 from Arkansas.
So if you are familiar with ur then you evidently already have the scriptures and your arguments ready.
Please go right ahead and give them to me. I will take them in consideration one by one with an
open mind I promise. From what you have warned me of that is more then the others would do.

Here is the way I examine all scripture that seems to me to have something missing.
(I recommend you study your bible and the concordant literal side by side.
If you find a discrepancy then go to the Interlinear if you still see a problem
then go to the web and get as many opinions as you can .)
Study any discrepancy in as much depth as you can.)

Most suits swear by the strong concordance I find it a useful tool much like a can opener.
Not the where with all to end all.

Because the Apostles are no longer with us it takes a lot of digging to find the truth and meanings of scripture.
Here is one of my latest study guides I do for friends and family. Feel free to tear it apart.

Everlasting punishment

The answer to this question is likewise unpopular but just as clear and difficult to deny. Numerous passages affirm that the destiny of the lost is punishment (Matt. 25:46; 2 Thess. 1:8-9; 2 Pet. 2:9; Rev. 21:8). But just what is the nature of this punishment? To answer this question is the purpose of our study. In order to appreciate what is involved in punishment we need to acquaint ourselves with a number of Greek words which convey this idea in the New Testament.

Ekdikesis (2 Thess. 1:8) "lit. '(that which proceeds) out of justice,'" W.E. Vine, The Expanded Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words, vol. 4, p. 184.

Dike (2 Thess. 1:9; Jue 7) Thayer (p. 151) says this word can be applied to the execution of the sentence that comes from a judicial hearing or decision.

Kolasis and kolazo (Matt. 25:46; 2 Pet. 2:9) Several sources say these words signify a cutting off, a pruning. "Punishment is designed to cut off what is bad or disorderly", Kittel, Theological Dicteionary of the New Testament, vol. 3, p. 814.

Timoreo and timoria (Heb. 10:29) "Primarily, to help, then to avenge...i.e. to help by redressing wrongs", Vine, vol. 3, p. 230http://www.victorious.org/chastise.htmMatt25,46

Matt 25,46
Kolasis, chas·ten (chsn)
tr.v. chas·tened, chas·ten·ing, chas·tens
1. To correct by punishment or reproof; take to task.
2. To restrain; subdue: chasten a proud spirit.
3. To rid of excess; refine or purify: chasten a careless writing style.

Noun 1. chastening - a rebuke for making a mistake
chastisement, correction
rebuke, reprehension, reprimand, reproof, reproval - an act or expression of criticism and censure; "he had to take the rebuke with a smile on his face"



Heb10,29
Timoria, punishment 1. a rendering help
2. assistance
3. vengeance, punishment, penalty

1st john 4,18
Kolasis, correction, punishment, penalty

Epitimia, punishment 2nd Corth2,6

1st Peter 2,14
, a revenging, vengeance, punishment

2nd peter 2,9 "chasten"
Kolazo, 1. to lop or prune, as trees and wings
2. to curb, check, restrain
3. to chastise, correct, punishment
4. to cause to be punished

Jude 1,7
Dike, 1. custom, usage
2. right, just
3. a suit at law
4. a judicial hearing, judicial decision, esp. sentence of condemnation
5. execution of a sentence, punishment
1. to suffer punishment
6. the goddess Justice, avenging justice

Hebrew word
Paqad, attend to punishment again is in regards to what is good for you.

Some helpful sites
http://hellbusters.8m.com/upd3.html (endless punishment)

http://christianspiritualism.org/articl ... ionios.htm

http://bibletherapy.blogspot.com/2006/0 ... me_05.html

 

[cyberjosh]

I am not a scholar. I don't think any of the original 12 was either.

No you most certainly don't have to be. :D Jesus accepts those simple in the faith, but that faith must be based on correct doctrine, which is the extent to which I use scholarship (such as meanings of words in the original Hebrew or Greek).

I will try to get to this post later since I am currently at work. I appreciate that you have finally come forward with a meaningful post. And now that I know you are many years my senior, even though I try to be fair and show respect to all anyway (regardless of whether I disagree with them), any arguement I may have with you I will present with love and respect, as I recall that in the Bible somewhere it says to admonish the elderly gently and with respect. That I will do.

God Bless,

~Josh

 

[bacord]

Come on my good fellow now you say I am "simple in the faith" eluding to the fact you are not.
You have already made up you mind I need to be "admonished."
Like Christ said be careful how you judge.

 

[cyberjosh]

Come on my good fellow now you say I am "simple in the faith" eluding to the fact you are not.
You have already made up you mind I need to be "admonished."
Like Christ said be careful how you judge.

I actually was not being sarcastic nor accusative, nor did I intend to incinuate anything (Iapologize if it came across that way). All Christians must be simple in the faith ("unless you have the faith of a child..."). I was actually trying to appeal to commong ground between us. And I do not misunderstand nor take lightly your sincerity. Also I know that Scripture about judging very well, BTW, and have it memorized. It is John 7:24, and it is a personal motto of mine. And I of course have my convictions on doctrine, just like any other person.

Anyway, I just dropped in real quick, I'm still at work and cannot begin to give the required detailed reply to you yet. I will though.

Peace,

~Josh

 

[cyberjosh]

Ok Bacord. I have read your post and you are right in that judgement is to right wrongs out of a sense of God's justice. Let me also bring in a passage from the OT which speaks of this judgement though. It is in Isaiah Chapter 66, almost the entire second half. That would be alot to quote so I will only hit the highlights. Feel free to go back there yourself and double check me for context.

"See, the LORD is coming with fire,
and his chariots are like a whirlwind;
he will bring down his anger with fury,
and his rebuke with flames of fire.

For with fire and with his sword
the LORD will execute judgment upon all men,
and many will be those slain by the LORD." (vs 15-16)

""As the new heavens and the new earth that I make will endure before me," declares the LORD, "so will your name and descendants endure. From one New Moon to another and from one Sabbath to another, all mankind will come and bow down before me," says the LORD. "And they will go out and look upon the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; their worm will not die, nor will their fire be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind." (vs 22-24)

The first section talks quite definately about those wicked being slain, which is not only physical death but also what the Bible calls the second death. And the following section shows that all the saints for eternity will come before God to worship and bow down, but also as a constant reminder from moon to moon (aka season to season) and sabbath to sabbath (week to week) with no end in view here, they will see the dead, whose worm does not die (meaning the decay will never stop - if it will not die then the decay will not stop) and the fire will not be quenched (put out). This is the same verse Jesus quotes multiple time in the Gospels when speaking of hell (Gehenna - incidentally a word taken from the same valley the slain are seen to be in in Isaiah 66: the Valley of Hinnom - I believe a basic lexicon will tell you that also).

Now for your earlier points:

If a man who knows better does evil he will punished with many stripes. If a man doesn’t know to do better then he will be punished with few stripes.

We cannot isolate these things to a single parable, for each does not give the complete picture, or Jesus would never have "likened the kingdom unto" more than one thing. In Matthew 22:12-13 it says, "Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth". The wicked will be cast out, not just whipped and then allowed to stay. But what I believe you have touched on is differing degrees of punishment in hell & the lake of fire (in accordance with one's wickedness - remember Jesus said to Capernaum it would be more tollerable for Sodom and Gommorah on the day of judgement than for Capernaum who outright rejected Jesus), just as I believe there will be degrees of reward in Heaven (some will reap 30, some 60, some 100 fold - as Jesus said of the parable of the seed & sower). It will be based on how they reacted to God given their level of knowledge. I believe God is a merciful God, and will give all people more than a fair chance to repent and be saved, but there is a point in which judgement is immenant and they cross a boundary which cannot be taken back (Hebrews 6:4-6, and other passages).

What about the scripture that a man shall be saved like going trough a wall of fire.
He suffers loss he himself shall be saved.

I personally use this Scripture all the time and it in no way has in context an idea of restitution from hell, for it is directed only to believers. It is a judgement of works, not for salvation, for the believer's salvation is secured already in Christ. This is the judgement for deeds done in the body.

1 Corinthians 3:10-15, "According to the grace of God which was given to me, as a wise master builder I have laid the foundation, and another builds on it. But let each one take heed how he builds on it. 11 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each one’s work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one’s work, of what sort it is. 14 If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire. "

Only believers build on the foundation of Christ, just as the parable of the foolish man who built his house on the sand (the world) and the wise man who built his house upon the rock (upon Christ, the Rock of our Salvation). This is judgement for believers of what they did with the gift Christ gave them The wood, hay and stubble are the burnable items (thus the bad works) while the gold, silver, and precious stones speak of purity (good works). All of us will suffer some loss because we are not perfect, but this is meant to be a reasurance (though a firm warning) to the Christian that though their works may be burned, God will not take away their salvation.

This judgement is seen once again in 2 Corinthians 5:9-11, "Therefore we make it our aim, whether present or absent, to be well pleasing to Him. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad. 11 Knowing, therefore, the fear of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are well known to God, and I also trust are well known in your consciences."

Paul is speaking to believers once again, and is admonishing them to live in the fear of the lord based on the judgement they will recieve for deeds done in the body, whether good or bad (the Christian will suffer loss through bad works).

I know this is but a short reply in conjunction with such a large topic, but I hope this will make a good starting point.

God Bless,

~Josh

 

[Bick]

Hi Bacord. I would love to get into this discussion---but---as Josh warned, the conclusion could logoical lead to God's ultimate salvation for all.

Here are some other web sites where full uncensored Biblical discussion is allowed:

http://www.bibleforums.org

http://www.christianforums.com

 

[bacord]

Josh and Bick:
Josh said. (The reason it is controversial is because it is a primary playground for universal reconciliationist.)
This is a belief system. That does not make the words less meaningful.
I will not preach the truth because people I don’t agree with believe it? No sir I will lie instead and say it means something else. Not me brother What ever is true what ever is good.
Josh I know you did not really study these topics. It took me a long time and you were at work when you read my thread. Most people already think they know everything.
When I found out about these words and started studying on my own at first I grew very angry at some of the bigger more educated ministers because they know the truth but will not teach it. Age means age I know that is a hard pill to swallow.
The only single word I could find in the Greek that means without end (I will probably spell it wrong) is adiaos it’s pronounced like the Spanish word for goodbye or close.
I will look and find it for you.
Did you bother to look at the study I sent you on the word punishment? There are like 5 different words that have five different meanings that are all lumped in the Bible as punishment. This concerns me and I know that when you show this to people they have sense of great relief. If you do not see Gods love for us in this study then I feel sorry for you.
Josh’s first quote that God comes back with fire is very true. We must all die this has nothing to do with eternal punishment. The nations gather against God to fight him and he kills them. I totally agree with that.

Now let’s tackle the second vs you quoted and get the real picture here.
When the Lord returns and sets up the Fathers kingdom on this earth then he will do away with all pagan systems that we have set up the months will again become proper as will the true Sabbath that is now a spiritual Sabbath that we keep continually.
If the people do not come to his holy mountain when he tells them to come they will receive no rain. This I see as a form of Fatherly punishment in a loving way to correct.
You think that there only Christians left on the earth there will still be nations of people.
That he will teach not to war with each other anymore. (Pound their weapons in to plows) etc.
Now about these people who will lay out in the valley and not rot come on Josh.
Look at these two scriptures and come to the truth.
Eze 39:11
"On that day I will give Gog a burial ground there in Israel, the valley of those who pass by east of the sea, and it will block off those who would pass by. So they will bury Gog there with all his horde, and they will call {it} the valley of Hamon-gog.

Eze 39:13
"Even all the people of the land will bury {them;} and it will be to their renown {on} the day that I glorify Myself," declares the Lord GOD.

It takes about seven months to bury the majority of them and still as the months roll on people who journey to see the Lord and worship him will find there dead bodies and will place a marker on them so they can be buried.
their worm will not die, nor will their fire be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind."
For the first seven months they will see the carcasses of the dead for the rest of the time they will see the graves.
This worm that will not die and the fire that is not quenched is in the peoples minds and they will always be reminded of what happens when you fight against God.
They will never forget.
(A little made up story for you. A man is going into see the Lord and takes his little son.
As he passes by this place he tells him the story about the people who fought against God. Then his son tells his children so the fire is remembered through out the thousand years.)
If this were as literal as you say then how could the end of the thousand years come.
At the end of the thousand years Peter tells us the very air will burn and the earth age is over and a new earth age is come or a new heavens a new earth.
At the end of the thousand years the whole surface of the earth is burned up nothing is left. There will not be any carcasses.

I hope this helps you. Now please go and do a complete study on Olam and Eon.
I us this web site to study http://www.bestbiblestudy.org.
I study my Bible along with the concordant literal and the interlinear and then to the Greek lexicon if I have any problems I search the web and let the Lord lead me to truth.

It seems there is no end to learning from the word of God.
So Bick and Josh be fun loving truth seekers.
Do not think to highly of ourselves.
This bestbiblestudy.org has a lot about this olam and eon.

 

[cyberjosh]

Bacord,

Come now that's hardly fair to me. I answered your first two questions, and then after I did read your post I still saw no direct bearing of those words of judgement, as seeking justice, with the duration of olam or eon. You can show that the words for judgement themselves don't mean destruction but judgement is often coupled with explicit images, such as the sword and fire, things which do destroy. And what of what Jesus said, "Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell" (Matthew 10:28)? And context always establishes a word's meaning anyway, whether of judgement or eon. Infact sometimes our future with God is spoken of in aeons (plural) as ages upon ages, and no end is in sight, it is as explicit of terms anyone could give for eternal duration for a language who did not have a proper litteral word for un-ending time. Yet as I pointed out earlier, when eon or olam are used with the phrase "without end" it becomes obvious the context. And infact I have studied olam & aeon, and I have Andrew Jukes' Names of God and The Restitution of All Things (in fact I have almost all his books), and if I am not mistaken he even began the UR movement. Jukes does a good job of describing God's various dispensations as El Olam, God of Ages, and how these dispensations varied over the ages in The Names of God. And I agree with his in Names of God, and I love the book, but I do not agree with The Restitution of All Things, because I think he largely confused our work as redeeming saints in the Mellineal Kingdom as with redeeming those already dead which Christ will judge.

You are right that all the nations will be ruled by God during the Mellineal Kingdom, and there will for the most part be peace, and if they rebell (and when Satan is losed after the 1000 years some probably will) they will be destroyed, but this a continuation of rule on this earth, with real people who will live lives, have children, etc, etc. yet the government shall be on Jesus' shoulders. This however makes rebellion even more unexcusable, and destruction physically would also mean destruction spiritually, in hell, and after the Mellineal Reign and Satan's rebellion all those who were wicked and rebelled, will be cast into the Lake of Fire (which the Bible explicitly states was for Satan and his fallen angels). Satan will not be restored, especially after his rebellion, nor will those people who followed in his wicked footsteps. The casting into the Lake of Fire is called the second death. Why do you suppose that is?

I'll try to reply more in depth later.

~Josh

 

[bacord]

All I am saying you are at work and do not have much time.
I have all the time in the world to study "praise God"
I know this is a long and drawn out subject that is why I only bring it up.
I know the 4 basic rules of life one being you can't change anyone.
We must all work on our own salvation.
I try not to get into long discussions as they only hurt peoples feelings.
I gave the web pages some of them, bestbiblestudy has others.
Paul said I plant another waters God gives the increase.
This is not a salvation issue. I believe it to be important tho, thats just me.
Some will read and either come to the conclusions I have come to or not.
We are all in Gods hands.

 

[Bick]

No doubt, there are plenty of scriptures describing the wrath, indignation of the Lord God, and the OT is full of accounts where God instructed the Israelites to conquer a city or people and slaughter every living thing: men, women, helpless infants, and their livestock.

But, where does it say all the unrighteous dead were immediately sent to "hell", a place where their souls (which have never died--obviously) have a body with all its senses which can be tormented?

And, if that were true, how can we read, "The wages of sin is death?" Rom. 6:23.

Let's look at Adam and Eve. Without doubt, they sinned, disobeyed the Lord, and they experienced the result of God's warning: "In the day of your eating, to eat; you will be dying to die;
And Adam died 969 years later.

Was there a hell created then? For, by what is our traditional theology, they should be writing in hell all these years, and this before being judged at the great white throne by Christ.

 

[bacord]

Real good question I don't have the answer.
I do believe the answer is in the study of Olam and Eon.
The simple code I live by is...... 1st John Chapter 3 all of it. I believe you can read and study the whole new covenant letters and they are all summarized in this Chapter.
But that is just me.

 

[Bick]

Real good question I don't have the answer.
I do believe the answer is in the study of Olam and Eon.
The simple code I live by is...... 1st John Chapter 3 all of it. I believe you can read and study the whole new covenant letters and they are all summarized in this Chapter.
But that is just me.

MY COMMENTS: I understand, bacord, and I'm in agreement with the literal meanings of "olam" and "eon." My questions were primarily directed at Josh.

Josh, isn't it conceivable that the justice, honor, righteousnes etc, of God can be fully justified, that His indignation can be fully vindicated through the different judgings to be imposed upon the church/body of Christ, Israel and the nations?

For the church/body of Christ, Paul tells us that we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ (Rom. 14:10 and 1 Cor. 5:10), that each one may receive good or evil, according to what he has done in the body. This will be in the heavenlies after the 'rapture'.

The judgment of the house of God (Israel). This will be a final judgment during the "time of Jacob's trouble", Daniel's 70th week, the "tribulation," particularly the last three and one half years.

The final judgment for the rest of mankind will take place before the great white throne, as we read in Rev. 20:11ff.
Now, I believe that the apostle Paul describes in Rom. 2 what it will be like at that judgment for those who have been resurrected. NOTICE: they are alive humans, in their own bodies; not in some "inner mystical soul/spirit".

Notice, Paul writes of the coming judgment of mankind, that God's judgment will be according to truth (vs. 2), according to man's deeds (vs. 6), and according to Paul's gospel (vs. 16).

Just imagine an unbeliever standing before Christ Jesus sitting on his glorious white throne, with myriads of angels around him. WOW!

Since God (Christ) will judge honestly and rightly, according to mankind's deeds, vs. 7 informs us there will be those who by patience in well doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, and they will be given eternal (aionian) life. I believe this group would be those whose names are written in the book of life, who will not be thrown in the lake of fire (Rev. 20:15).

But for those who are factious and do not obey the truth, but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury, tribulation and distress, for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek (Gentile), but glory and honor and peace for every one who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek (names in the book of life).

It is my belief that when God says "vengeance is mine, I will repay..", that, apart from the evidence of his wrath upon the world during the last days of the tribulation, it will be at the great white throne that each evil individual will suffer all the those things according to their evil deeds, and Christ's vengeance will be repaid.

Then, all whose names are not in the book of life will be cast into the lake of fire and die their second death.