Old/New Heaven and Old/New Earth

[Deborah13]

Matthew 5:17-18 Has the heaven and earth in this passage passed away? I believe it has and I will try to prove that by quoting from both scriptures and Jewish writings.
Mat 5:17 `Do not suppose that I came to throw down the law or the prophets--I did not come to throw down, but to fulfil;
Mat 5:18 for, verily I say to you, till that the heaven and the earth may pass away, one iota or one tittle may not pass away from the law, till that all may come to pass.

Mat 15:24 and he answering said, `I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.'
Jesus' ministry here on earth was mainly involved in teaching and preaching to the nation of Israel. He used phrases and speech that they understood in their time, culture, and system or economy which was the Mosaic system. This system's law was the Law of Moses, the covenant God made them at the base of Mt. Sinai.
If the old covenant has passed away as Hebrews 8:13 says it was and shortly did by the destruction of the Jewish temple in 70 AD, how is it the Jesus' could say not one jot or tittle would pass from the law until heaven and earth had passed away?
Heb 8:13 in the saying `new,' He hath made the first old, and what doth become obsolete and is old is nigh disappearing.
If not one jot or tittle could pass away then that would mean that the ceremonial laws would still have to be in effect as well as the rest of the Jewish laws. The ceremonial laws would be many jots and tittles.
So what did Jesus mean by 'heaven and earth'? [continued]

 

[Deborah13]

What would a Jewish person have believed Jesus was talking about when He said those words?
Josephus in his writing The Antiquities of the Jews, Book 3, chapter 6, paragraph 4 says...
"As for the inside, Moses parted its length into three partitions. At the distance of ten cubits from the most secret end, Moses placed four pillars; ... Now the room within those pillars was the Most Holy Place: but the rest of the room was the Tabernacle, this was open for the Priests. However this proportion of the measures of the Tabernacle proved to be an imitation of the system of the world. For that third part thereof which was within the four pillars, to which the Priests were not admitted, is, as it were, an Heaven, peculiar to God."
The Antiquities of the Jews Book 3, chapter 7, paragraph 7...
"When Moses distinguished the tabernacle into three parts, (17) and allowed two of them to the Priests, as a place accessible and common, he denoted the land and the sea: for these are accessible to all. But when he set apart the third division for God, it was because heaven is inaccessible to men."

If the heaven and earth referred to in this verse in Matthew is the Jewish temple which was the center of their world and the whole Mosaic system/the old covenant then what is the new heaven and new earth referring to in other scriptures? What is the sea, land, heavens in prophetic scriptures?
What did the Jewish leaders think when Jesus said Matthew 5:17-18 to them? Later in Matthew 23 He tells them...
Mat 23:13 `Woe to you, Scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye shut up the reign of the heavens before men, for ye do not go in, nor those going in do ye suffer to enter.
Mat 23:38 Lo, left desolate to you is your house;

 

[Michael74]

Perhaps a literal new earth? Revelation's message that the current heavens and earth are temporary is echoed in other books. For example, in Hebrews 1:10b-12a NIV

In the beginning, Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands.

They will perish, but you remain;
they will all wear out like a garment.

You will roll them up like a robe;
like a garment they will be changed.

The temporary nature of the current earth is consistent with nature. For example, the sun produces light by fusing protons together. Eventually, the sun will run out of free protons. Thus Revelation relating that on the new earth the Lord Himself will be our light.

 

[4afaithfulone]

Matthew 5:17-18 Has the heaven and earth in this passage passed away? I believe it has and I will try to prove that by quoting from both scriptures and Jewish writings.
Mat 5:17 `Do not suppose that I came to throw down the law or the prophets--I did not come to throw down, but to fulfil;
Mat 5:18 for, verily I say to you, till that the heaven and the earth may pass away, one iota or one tittle may not pass away from the law, till that all may come to pass.

Mat 15:24 and he answering said, `I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.'
Jesus' ministry here on earth was mainly involved in teaching and preaching to the nation of Israel. He used phrases and speech that they understood in their time, culture, and system or economy which was the Mosaic system. This system's law was the Law of Moses, the covenant God made them at the base of Mt. Sinai.
If the old covenant has passed away as Hebrews 8:13 says it was and shortly did by the destruction of the Jewish temple in 70 AD, how is it the Jesus' could say not one jot or tittle would pass from the law until heaven and earth had passed away?
Heb 8:13 in the saying `new,' He hath made the first old, and what doth become obsolete and is old is nigh disappearing.
If not one jot or tittle could pass away then that would mean that the ceremonial laws would still have to be in effect as well as the rest of the Jewish laws. The ceremonial laws would be many jots and tittles.
So what did Jesus mean by 'heaven and earth'? [continued]

Even though Jesus fulfilled the law in his body, there are still natural Jews on this earth who are still under the law until the end of this world we are in. The old covenant is fading away because as the natural Jews either come out from under that old covenant and into their new in Christ or pass on without receiving the free gift of God and will be judged according to the whole Mosaic law that no man can keep containing 613 laws. God's Word is the same yesterday, today and forever, but we have a better covenant for the Spirit teaches us how to be doers of the Word, not just hearers only which changes no one. We have not had our 7th day rest of the earth in our day. That is when there is minimal people in the earth to allow for the earth to replenish it's soil and no bloodshed,no man made junk to pollute the body, waters, soil. Once that Sabbath day(1,000yrs) 7th day known as the millennium begins, Christ will begin to cleanse earthly Jerusalem to prepare a place for the bride/wife heavenly Jerusalem to come down from heaven and that is when our new world, the new heaven and earth will begin.
2 Peter 2:5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;
KJV
There was a old world before us, it was the one that Adam was created in where he knew God as LORD God before the fall, but ended with the flood of Noah, this was the first heaven and earth of Gen.1:1 in which God created it perfect, but after Adam's fall it became corrupted. We are in the Gen.1:2 creation of this world, awaiting our new heaven and earth which will be the 3rd earths age or world, same earth, yet the heavens are the rulers that have been the chosen or elect and are being trained(foreknew) before the foundation of the (new) world to rule and reign in the new earth age to come. Wedding in Cana on the 3rd day....

See here, there are generations of the heaven(s) and the earth just as there are generations of us. This is where the Bible actually begins to tell us of the old world that Adam lived. Notice the LORD God created Adam only, no Eve yet. Adam was created before the plants, and animals? Not like those in the Gen.1:2 account who were created man and woman at the same time and after all other things for they were created already in the old world.

Gen 2:4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,
5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground.
6 But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground.
7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
8 And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.
KJV

Only after Adam could not find a compatible mate for him from the "BEASTS" hint hint because he was made in God's image, not the image of the Beast's!, Did God divide Adam to make Eve, his better half : ) yet they were still considered one flesh and part of Adams traits were given to Eve that is why opposites attract. God is all things even though we know Him as male, yet the Holy Spirit is the Dove or the female attributes of God as our mother.

2 Peter 3:5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
KJV

The earth will not ever be destroyed as none existant. Just the elements or system man has made for himself, without God.
Eph 3:21 Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.
KJV

 

[jasonc]

Perhaps a literal new earth? Revelation's message that the current heavens and earth are temporary is echoed in other books. For example, in Hebrews 1:10b-12a NIV

In the beginning, Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands.

They will perish, but you remain;
they will all wear out like a garment.

You will roll them up like a robe;
like a garment they will be changed.

The temporary nature of the current earth is consistent with nature. For example, the sun produces light by fusing protons together. Eventually, the sun will run out of free protons. Thus Revelation relating that on the new earth the Lord Himself will be our light.

yet in Isiah it says that the sun and moon shall be before the lord forever, from sabatth to another in the new heavens and the new earth which I shall create.

 

[Michael74]

The sun will no more be your light by day, nor will the brightness of the moon shine on you, for the LORD will be your everlasting light, and your God will be your glory. Isaiah 60:19 NIV

 

[jasonc]

The sun will no more be your light by day, nor will the brightness of the moon shine on you, for the LORD will be your everlasting light, and your God will be your glory. Isaiah 60:19 NIV

cherry picking is something I don't do when its that plain.

Is 66

For, as the new heavens and the new earth that I am making, Are standing before Me, An affirmation of Jehovah! So remain doth your seed and your name.
23 And it hath been from month to month, And from sabbath to sabbath, Come do all flesh to bow themselves before Me, Said Jehovah.

ylt version. kjv. which says it this way.

.

And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the Lord

kind a hard to do shabat when you don't know what day it is. that does mean it literally? which is it?

oh wait this is usally a millennium supported chapter but read what is says that negates that.

For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
18 But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.
19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.
20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.
21 And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them.
22 They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.
23 They shall not labour in vain, nor bring forth for trouble; for they are the seed of the blessed of the Lord, and their offspring with them.
24 And it shall come to pass, that before they call, I will answer; and while they are yet speaking, I will hear.
25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the Lord.

 

[Michael74]

kind a hard to do shabat when you don't know what day it is.

So maybe we will tell time by a new moon moving across the sky. The Bible only says we will not need a sun, the Bible does not say we won't have a moon. Maybe we will have a new moon orbiting the new earth. Maybe we will tell time some other way. Maybe time will pass differently on the new earth. I don't know all the answers, but we don't necessarily need a sun to tell time. There are other ways.

 

[jasonc]

So maybe we will tell time by a new moon moving across the sky. The Bible only says we will not need a sun, the Bible does not say we won't have a moon. Maybe we will have a new moon orbiting the new earth. Maybe we will tell time some other way. Maybe time will pass differently on the new earth. I don't know all the answers, but we don't necessarily need a sun to tell time. There are other ways.

the moon doesn't generate light. it reflects light. so how would we know what time it is? telescopes? they wont be able to see the sun. nor moon. no night. I take that as a new form of worship.

 

[Michael74]

The Lord will give us light.

There will be no more night. They will not need the light of a lamp or the light of the sun, for the Lord God will give them light. And they will reign for ever and ever. Revelation 22:5 NIV

 

[jasonc]

The Lord will be our light.

There will be no more night. They will not need the light of a lamp or the light of the sun, for the Lord God will give them if there. And they will reign for ever and ever. Revelation 22:5

so if he is the light then how can we see the sun. a lamp was used for the night. therefore because there is NO shade , no darkness at all on the earth in any room. there might not be any need for the moon.

problem the moon is used to know when the shabat is to start, and the sun as well. I know this as I have done channukah and that and all feasts start at sundown on the religious calendar.

 

[Michael74]

... there might not be any need for the moon...

The Bible does not say this. The Bible only says we won't need a sun, or lamps.

I used to wonder why the Books of Moses said to use a lunar calendar. In any case, the Lord will tell us what He wants us to do when the time comes. No need to worry about it.

 

[jasonc]

The Bible does not say this. The Bible only says we won't need a sun, or lamps.

I used to wonder why the Books of Moses said to use a lunar calendar. In any case, the Lord will tell us what He wants us to do when the time comes. No need to worry about it.

lamps. uhm in the old days they had dark rooms. one did need a lamp for that. they also had caves. walls and roofs do cause the need to have lights, unless one is going to say we don't use lights in rooms with windows. I do most of the time. its easier to read. a lamp has uses outside of the night.

 

[Michael74]

...lamps. uhm in the old days they had dark rooms..

In the new days, we will have light rooms. We won't need lamps. So says the Bible. It doesn't matter what they did in the old days.

 

[Michael74]

Its not necessary to assume that physics will work the same way it does today. New Jerusalem will be about 1500 miles tall. We won't need a sun. The Bible says we will be like the angels, and angels can fly. The Lord may create an entirely new set of physical laws for the new earth.

 

[Sinthesis]

Its not necessary to assume that physics will work the same way it does today. New Jerusalem will be about 1500 miles tall. We won't need a sun. The Bible says we will be like the angels, and angels can fly. The Lord may create an entirely new set of physical laws for the new earth.

Well that's just great. More legalism. I'd rather the new earth have an entirely new physical Grace!

 

[Michael74]

Ah, good point. Romans 8 suggests that creation itself may be set free from the 2nd law of thermodynamics.

...that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the freedom and glory of the children of God. Romans 8:21 NIV

 

[jasonc]

Its not necessary to assume that physics will work the same way it does today. New Jerusalem will be about 1500 miles tall. We won't need a sun. The Bible says we will be like the angels, and angels can fly. The Lord may create an entirely new set of physical laws for the new earth.

it doesn't say that. if you were to take that literally then how cant it be that the damned are physically outside the city? for without are the .. no sea? no rain. the imagery of revelation always alludes to something. the sea can be the literally sea but in some cases its not.

 

[Michael74]

... no sea?....

So what is the problem? Why would we need one?

 

[eddif]

Colossians 2:16
Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

There is a physical world that is a shadow of things to come. There is a spiritual mind world that needs no sun or moon for light , but the Lamb is the light thereof. The physical world will pass away , and a spiritual world will begin - eternity. I would be pretty dumb to start writing formulas for all this .

The physical world (contains us and the Law). The physicall world will exist till all is completed . This is just past all my human senses .

God evidently is/was/will be a spirit and time is temporal and time will revert to eternity. These are my
words. Scripture says
Romans 7:25
I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Paul is experiencing the New Jerusalem coming down out of heaven. He still had his body but the mind of Christ has arrived . Sure there are other viewpoints. At the last trump / judgement throne the change will leave the former flesh.

Without getting into this mindset there is little way to leave sun and moon and yet have light.

Don't panic. I will not post more without request .

edfif