Christian Forums

This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

oldest christian church found

jgredline said:
This is not new news, but perhaps some havenot seen this video.

http://www.israeltoday.co.il/portals/0/ ... church.wmv

At the end of this video in an inscription (keep in mind their is now eveidence that this was a first century church) there is an inscription that reads JESUS is GOD.

Enjoy
Very interesting video, and important information recognizing that the first century Christians believed Jesus is God just as the Bible declares. All of this prior to Constantine.
Thanks jgredline.
Michael
 
Solo said:
jgredline said:
This is not new news, but perhaps some havenot seen this video.

http://www.israeltoday.co.il/portals/0/ ... church.wmv

At the end of this video in an inscription (keep in mind their is now eveidence that this was a first century church) there is an inscription that reads JESUS is GOD.

Enjoy
Very interesting video, and important information recognizing that the first century Christians believed Jesus is God just as the Bible declares. All of this prior to Constantine.
Thanks jgredline.
Michael

Solo
Yes, your exactly right. BEFORE CONSTANTINE. I was hoping someone would notice that.
 
Wow
How did I miss this.
In the inscription at the end it says Jesus iS GOD and its dated before constantine.
How awesome and exciting this is
 
.

WHAT'S UP? :smt102
DATES AND FACTS ARE ALL CONFUSED
:smt017 (I'm not yelling) .

Yes, it is understood that this isn't new news, but news from last year around November 7, 2005.

Two Issues I need to bring up here:

1.)
Regardless of this being news from November of 2005. I must ask, Did I miss some debate about Constantine in some other thread? Am I ill informed about the formation of the early church? :smt100 Correct me if I am wrong, because I don't' understand why you are making a big deal out of the fact it's BEFORE Constantine, what's the big deal about Constantine? He came along after the earlychurch was established. All Constantine did was to allow Christians to come out in the open without having to worship in secret. Am I mistaken on that fact? :smt017

Constantine was born A.D. 247 and died A.D. 337, well, after the gospels were written. I have a bible that says the Book of Mark was written 25 years after Jesus died, and that the Gospel of Mark was the first Gospel to be written. That would date if to be around 58 A.D. The Gospel of John was written around 90 A.D. What's Constantine have to do with the formation of the early church? Nothing! He just gave them freedom to worship without having to hide.


2.) And also, what's up with the claim here on this church uncovered in Meddigo being from the 1st century as stated in the quote by jgredline?
jgredline said:
... At the end of this video in an inscription (keep in mind their is now eveidence that this was a first century church)...
jgredline, why do you claim this? Many articles that I found say the church isn't older than 3rd or 4th century.

=====================

Now that those issues are brought about... there's one more thing about that viewing of the video .... Sad to say, my computer takes way too long to load a 6:59 minute video. :sad However, I found many articles and pics on the web.

Below, are some excerpts from articles and a pic on the ancient Megiddo church for those of you who are in the same predicament of having to deal with slow loading videos.


The following article is dated January 9, 2006
  • Oldest Christian Church Discovered in Megiddo Prison
    Date: Monday, January 09 @ 03:44:09 MST
    Topic: ArchaeologyInReview

    Ramillo Razilo was serving a two-year sentence in the Megiddo prison for traffic offenses. His work duty was to remove rubble from the planned site of a new prison cellblock. When his shovel struck a hard surface, he became the man who discovered the oldest church found in Israel to date.

    “We continued to look; and slowly, we found this whole beautiful thing,†Razilo said. He was referring to a mosaic floor, uncovered by using a sponge and buckets of water. Archaeologists said the church dated from the third century, decades before Constantine legalized Christianity across the Byzantine Empire. Israeli leaders were ecstatic over the discovery.
    Prime Minister Ariel Sharon called it “an amazing story.†The find is so significant that Pope Benedict XVI is considering a visit to Israel next year, so he can visit the Megiddo site––10 kilometers (6.2 miles) west of the town of Afula. Israel President Moshe Katsav presented the Pope with framed photographs of the mosaic patterns, which include fish-shaped emblems. The fish was a known symbol used by early Christians.

    Archaeologists found pottery remnants from the third century. They were interested that the prominent symbol in the mosaic was the fish and not the cross. I spoke with the Yotam Tepper, the head of excavation at the site, for Bridges for Peace Israel Mosaic Radio. He said they had been working at the Megiddo prison location for two years. It had been a prison for the army. The Prison Authority planned cellblock extensions, and Tepper and his team were studying the area by excavation. During the course of this work, he said, they uncovered a deep site with a very long building that appeared to be from the Roman era to the Byzantine period.

    The mosaic area is presently covered by an arched, plastic greenhouse six meters by nine meters (20 feet by 30 feet). It contains a fresco collapsed onto the floor that features three inscriptions in Greek, fish-shaped emblems, and geometric patterns.

    Hebrew University Professor Leah Di Segni translated one of the inscriptions, which reads, “The God-loving Aketous has offered this table to the god Jesus Christ as a memorial.†The table seems to have been used in a ritual based on the Last Supper. It was probably made of wood since-perished. Up until this discovery, it was presumed that the early rituals were held around an altar, as they were in the Byzantine period. The second inscription had writing that says, “You must remember Primilla and Kyriake and Dorothea and also Chreste.â€Â

    Tepper and his team are working on finding the significance of these names. The final inscription tells of a Roman officer and a woman named Aketous, who paid to build the church in memory of “the god Jesus Christ.†Tepper explained that this is one of the first references to Jesus on a mosaic.

    Debate is already under way over the dating for the church. “This was the early transitional period of Christianity. This building does not follow the standardized Byzantine church plan,†archaeologist Yardena Alexander told a press briefing. Stephen Pfann, a biblical scholar and professor at the Holy Land University, said that the second and third centuries were transitional periods, “where people sought to define their religious beliefs and modes of worship.

    Iconography and inscriptions found in Nazareth and Capernaum––places where Jesus lived––show that people went there to worship, although most did so secretly. This was a time of persecution; and in this way, it is quite surprising that there would be such a blatant expression of Christ in a mosaic. But it may be the very reason why the church was destroyed.â€Â

    Joe Zias, an anthropologist and former curator with the Israel Antiques Authority, questioned the dating of the church. “There is no evidence of churches before the fourth century. They’re going to be hard-pressed to prove it because the evidence argues otherwise.†The Israel Antiquities Authority and the Prison Authority have a dilemma.

    When the mosaic floor is open to the public, will it be inside or outside of the Megiddo prison; and what will be the future for the proposed cellblock extensions? Yotam Tepper told me those decisions are under review. As for the prisoner Ramillo Razilo, he has already made plans to continue his work in archaeology after his release.

    source: http://www.bridgesforpeace.com/modules. ... e&sid=2540
===========================

Here is one dated November 7, 2005
source:http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2005/11/1107_051107_oldest_church.html?source=rss
  • November 7, 2005â€â€A mosaic featuring fish surrounded by geometric patterns decorates the floor of what archaeologists said on Sunday could be the oldest Christian church in Israel. The ruins of the church, which was likely built in the third or fourth century A.D., were recently discovered on the grounds of Megiddo Prison in northern Israel.

    "What's clear today is that it's the oldest archaeological remains of a church in Israel, maybe even in the entire region," Yotam Tepper, the excavation's head archaeologist, told the Associated Press.

    But other experts remain skeptical. Anthropologist Joe Zias, a former curator at the Israel Antiquities Authority, questions the date of the find. Zias told the Associated Press that there is no evidence that Christians built churches before the fourth century.
===========================

And yet, another dated November 7, 2005
source: http://www.pcusa.org/pcnews/2005/05599.htm
  • excerpt:
    "... The church, which dates approximately to the third century A.D., was discovered during a dig on the grounds of the Megiddo Prison, where Israel keeps hundreds of Palestinian security prisoners and ordinary convicts. It was discovered by inmates detailed to work in the excavation. ..."

    This excerpt is interesting!
    "... Other Greek inscriptions include a dedication to a Roman officer who paid for the floor of the structure and a dedication to four women. ..."
===========================

And another from the Associated Press
Updated: 10:48 p.m. ET Nov 6, 2005:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9950210

===========================

Here is an article written November 13, 2005
It gives some good history on Megiddo !

http://www.ratzer.com/Articles/Megiddo.html


===========================





.
 
.

Notice the section in the article I posted previously:

Tepper and his team are working on finding the significance of these names. The final inscription tells of a Roman officer and a woman named Aketous, who paid to build the church in memory of “the god Jesus Christ.†Tepper explained that this is one of the first references to Jesus on a mosaic.


Now I ask this..... Why would they use a small case "g" ?

:roll: Makes me wanna say" hmmmmmmm, very peculiar, indeed.
017.gif


.
 
Relic
I was wrong and made a mistake on the date of that old church.
In Israel todays website it had originally said it was a first century church so that is what I went by. So the date I put was wrong.
On a second note, the church has by many experts is said to be before the time of constantine.

Relic you said

Regardless of this being news from November of 2005. I must ask, Did I miss some debate about Constantine in some other thread? Am I ill informed about the formation of the early church? Correct me if I am wrong, because I don't' understand why you are making a big deal out of the fact it's BEFORE Constantine, what's the big deal about Constantine? He came along after the earlychurch was established. All Constantine did was to allow Christians to come out in the open without having to worship in secret. Am I mistaken on that fact?

I agree with you on what you said here. The reason I point this out is because many people point to constantine as the source who declared Jesus is GOD. The video evidence shows it was not constantine who decalared.
Really the bible declares this.

I will look the rest of your post later. Right now I need to change the water in my fish tanks.
Jg
 
I wrote the following post in response to a previous assertion on this forum in which the same video listed above allegedly portrayed the remains of a church wherein God’s true servants would have gathered for worship.

The facts clearly demonstrate this is not true. The ancient site in the video provides clear evidence of pagan aspects of worship that Greeks and perhaps local Hellenized Jews had developed into a corrupted form of Christianity which attempted to syncretize Jesus Christ with Greek Mythology, various aspects of astrology, and even much more ancient elements of the worship of the god Chemosh under the Moabites or Milcom under the Ammonites and portrayed by the stylized crescent moons in the mosaic.

I responded to jgredline’s posting of it on July 14 and clearly pointed out the dating was incorrect, but this fact was not acknowledged until it was brought up a second time by Relic as above. The original post can be accessed Here.

R7-12

…


jgredline said:
I will however encourage you to view this video of the oldest church in israel and notice carefuly that at the end of the video they will show in the mosaic writing where they wrote Jesus is God..
P.S. Notice its BEFORE Constantine
No, apparently it wasn’t built before Constantine. Also, the inscription is surrounded by pagan Greek symbols indicating the reference to Christ as God was an assumption understandably made from the Greek polytheist perspective of those who commissioned the work.

Constantine allegedly converted to a form of Christianity in 318 CE. This ancient site is unlikely to have been built before the fourth century according to at least one anthropologist.

According to the Associated Press,
MSNBC News said:
Two mosaics inside the church  one covered with fish, an ancient Christian symbol that predated the widespread use of the cross symbol  tell the story of a Roman officer and a woman named Aketous who donated money to build the church in the memory “of the god, Jesus Christ.â€Â
...
Joe Zias, an anthropologist and former curator with the antiquities authority, questioned the dating of the find, saying there is no evidence of churches before the fourth century. The building may have been in use earlier, but most likely not for Christian religious purposes, he said.

"They're going to be hard, hard-pressed to prove it ... because the evidence argues otherwise," Zias said.
Source: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9950210/

The mosaic and the inscriptions found at this site was the evidence Jewish archeologists used to determine it was Christian. The inscription shows the site was a memorial "of the god, Jesus Christ." Of course the Jews do not accept Christianity as it is taught by Christendom as a whole, especially because Messiah is asserted to be God. So when a Jew identifies an artifact as Christian, he is as much calling that religion pagan from a Jewish perspective, or at the very least unbiblical.

The mosaic found at the site immediately reveals it has absolutely nothing to do with the faith once delivered to the saints. First and foremost, the early church were all iconoclasts - as the church remains today. Secondly, all the images in the mosaic are pagan in origin – without exception. The two-fish-swimming-in-opposite-directions symbol is the Vesica Pisces. It is a well known ancient pagan symbol that predates the fourth century Roman Christian use of the cross which is also of pagan origin.

This symbol, called the vesica pisces or "Jesus fish," has an unusual history. Used almost exclusively to denote membership in the Christian religion, the symbol once held a very different meaning.

The shape of the Vesica Pisces (literally 'vessel of the fish') is derived from the intersection of two circles, a pythagorean symbol of the intersection of the world of the divine with the world of matter.

In Pagan times, this glyph was associated with the Goddess Venus, and represented female genitalia. How it came to be associated with Christianity isn't entirely clear, but early depictions of Christ depict him as an infant within the vesica (usually called a mandorla, meaning 'almond shaped.'), which represented the womb of Mary. As such, it is also a doorway or portal between worlds, and symbolizes the intersection between the heaven and the material plane. The shape of arches in gothic architecture is based on this shape.
Source: http://www.halexandria.org/dward097.htm

The Vesica Pisces is easily one of the most profound geometrical images of ancient and modern times. Essentially, the intersection of two, overlapping spheres, the Vesica Pisces (including the interior portion of it, and/or the more common two dimensional version) represents, among other things:

1) The joining of God and Goddess to create an offspring,
2) A symbol for Jesus Christ
Source: http://www.halexandria.org/dward097.htm

ASTROLOGICAL AGES OF THE EARTH
A chart of the planetary positions at one’s birth cast in order to interpret the celestial connection for a person is a natal or birth chart. Casting charts for events or countries is called mundane astrology.20 There is an even larger picture, the ages of the twelve zodiacs through which the earth passes as the north pole shifts towards a new constellation approximately every 2,000 years, often called the astrological ages or World Ages.

Due to a slight wobble of the earth’s axis, the north pole does not move consistently in time back to the same beginning point in a constellation, but approximately to a spot one minute of arc earlier.21 This is a backward shift through the zodiac belt, so that the earth moves from Aries to Pisces to Aquarius to Capricorn, etc., rather than the reverse. It takes about 26,000 years for the earth to pass through all twelve zodiac constellations. This is called the Great Year.22

According to this view, since the birth of Christ came at the beginning of the Age of Pisces, and 2,000 years have now passed, the Age of Pisces is ending and the Age of Aquarius is upon us. With the focus on synchronicity and collective meanings of planetary symbols, the Age of Pisces is interpreted as a passage for all humanity that has spanned the birth of Christ until now. Christ becomes the living symbol of the Piscean Age.
Source: http://cana.userworld.com/cana_pisean3.html

Other pagan symbols in the mosaic include: the Solar Star, the Kramo Bone, Triangle, Diamond, Crescent Moons, Thunder Cross, the Intertwined or Braided Knots, and several others yet unidentified from the photos.

Much could be posted on each of these also revealing their pagan origin and meaning.

Clearly this site was pagan. It was reported to be owned by a Roman officer. Most Roman soldiers of this era were adherents of the Mithraic Mystery Cult system* of which many embraced aspects of Christianity as it was portrayed by sects such as the Athanasians, who gained popularity and enjoyed State support under Constantine and others who followed. * Source: http://www.well.com/~davidu/mithras.html

Archeological evidence of the true first century church will never be found in the form of symbols because they did not adopt any then and they which have followed after them never have either, and never will.

R7-12
 
R7, I remember when I was much younger someone telling me that early Christians used the fish sign to recognize one another during persecution. One person drawing the upper half of the fish in an arc motion in the dust/sand, and then the second person completing the fish with a lower arc. Have you heard this before? I am assuming it would have still been something born out of paganism even if it is remotely true...and do you know of a good resource on pagan roots of the christian faith? The Lord bless you.
 
R7
After reading your post I feel really sorry for you. hAVING To use NEW AGE SITES to back up your false claims. Using liberal sources to make a claim.
Its just like the liberal left to spin things. I realize your good at spinning things as it is eveident in the way you SPIN the scriptures to fit with your cult beleifs.

The fact is this. The guy in the video is translating the greek and it says JESUS IS GOD CAPITAL LETTERS.

This before the time of constantine.
Take your liberal new age mumbo jumbo to a new age forum where you belong
 
Hi Lovely,

I am not familiar with the story you mentioned concerning Christians but agree that it would have its origins in paganism.

What is intriguing about it is the two arcs. These are crescents. Each represents a phase of the moon, one depicting the beginning of the fist phase after conjunction when the first sliver after the New Moon is visible, and the second, the final crescent before the next New Moon which anciently was called the Finger of Asherat as it was seen as the goddesses fingernail.

The crescents are symbols of the moon god Sin from where we get our term for breaking the law and also the origin for Mt. Sinai. Moloch and Milcom or Malcom are other names of a similar god for which the moon was representative of.

When the two crescents are brought together, it forms the Vesica Pisces or “Jesus Fish.†This was a prominent pagan symbol anciently which has survived in many forms today.

Concerning pagan roots, I would not characterize the Christian faith as having pagan roots, rather, elements of paganism, Gnosticism, the Sun and Mystery Cults, Babylonian Mysteries, aspects of Mithraism, and many other influences, were introduced by the so-called Greek and Roman Christians of the second century CE onward, who syncretized aspects of these religious systems with what they came to know about Christianity as kept by the early Jewish and Gentile Christians along with the relatives of Jesus Christ.

Many of these false teachings penetrated the belief systems of those who attached themselves to Christianity and after gaining control of the church through Constantine, it became thoroughly entrenched and remain to this day as fundamental Christian doctrine.

Searching specific words such as Vesica Pisces, Jesus Fish, the golden calf, Moloch, Milcom, Remphan, Sakkuth, Kaiwan, and Kiyyun, crescent moon, Sin god, Moon worship, should provides many links some of which will likely be very helpful. The origin of Christmas and Easter is also a key phrase that will likely bring up many interesting articles in a google search.

I hope this is helpful,
R7-12
 
lovely said:
R7, I remember when I was much younger someone telling me that early Christians used the fish sign to recognize one another during persecution. One person drawing the upper half of the fish in an arc motion in the dust/sand, and then the second person completing the fish with a lower arc. Have you heard this before? I am assuming it would have still been something born out of paganism even if it is remotely true...and do you know of a good resource on pagan roots of the christian faith? The Lord bless you.


Lovely

The sighn of the fish is Ichthus
Just what does the Ichthus mean?

ichthus (Gk., fish) Early Christian acrostic for Jesus Christ, Son of God and Savior. Kurian, G. T. (2001). Nelson's new Christian dictionary : The authoritative resource on the Christian world. Nashville, Tenn.: Thomas Nelson Pubs.


Ichthus (ikh-thoos) or ichthys is the Greek word simply meaning “fishâ€Â.
The Greek spelling for ichthus is -- Iota, Chi, Theta, Upsilon, and Sigma. The English translation is IXOYE. The five Greek letters stand for the words meaning, “Jesus Christ, Son of God, Savior.†The Greek rendering is, “Iesous Christos, Theou Uios, Soterâ€Â.

This symbol was used primarily amongst Christians of the early church years (1st and 2nd century A.D.) The symbol was introduced from Alexandria, Egypt; which at the time, was a very heavily populated seaport. It was the port in which many goods were brought over from the European continent. Because of this, it was first used by the peoples of the sea as a symbol of a familiar deity, in this case, Jesus Christ.

Its not based on some new age monn goddes or whatever the crecent mumbo jumbo is.
To read more click here http://www.plymouth-church.com/ichthus.html
 
R7-12 said:
Concerning pagan roots, I would not characterize the Christian faith as having pagan roots, rather, elements of paganism, Gnosticism, the Sun and Mystery Cults, Babylonian Mysteries, aspects of Mithraism, and many other influences, were introduced by the so-called Greek and Roman Christians of the second century CE onward, who syncretized aspects of these religious systems with what they came to know about Christianity as kept by the early Jewish and Gentile Christians along with the relatives of Jesus Christ.

Gnosticism came two centuries after Christianity. Mithraism wasn't recorded until the first century, long after Christianity.

Catholicism didn't incorporate any aspect of these false religions.

Many of these false teachings penetrated the belief systems of those who attached themselves to Christianity and after gaining control of the church through Constantine, it became thoroughly entrenched and remain to this day as fundamental Christian doctrine.

All Constantine did was legalize Christianity.

[quote:845d3]The origin of Christmas and Easter is also a key phrase that will likely bring up many interesting articles in a google search.

I hope this is helpful,
R7-12
[/quote:845d3]

Christmas comes from "Christ Mass"- a Mass celebrating the birth of Christ. "Easter" is an English word, borrowed from paganism. The Latin and Greek used "Pascha" which has nothing to do with paganism.
 
Why does everything here have to be a debate. I am really excited about the video and will not let R7 or Relic steal my Joy.
Enjoy the old church for what it is. Its an incredible find
 
Back
Top