On Confessing That Jesus Is Lord

[Edward]

I have a question about a scripture and a known belief (at least here on the forum). It concerns the below scripture.

1 Corinthians 12:3

"...and no one can say “Jesus is Lord†except in the Holy Spirit./(ESV)

It is well said on the forum that all faith comes from God, and even having the desire to seek Lord would not be possible if it had not been given us by the Holy Spirit. This scripture says that we can not even say that Jesus is Lord, except in the Holy Spirit. I myself can wrap my mind around this and am well grounded in the belief of same.

The question is; it is sadly and painfully obvious, that there are "so-called" christians who say that they are are, and say that Jesus is Lord of their life, but their works and behaviour deny this fact. How is this possible if this scripture is true?

Take the televangelists for instance, like Benny Hinn, or Kenneth Copeland (among a myriad of others) who (rob God) and get up on stage every day confessing that Jesus is Lord, yet do not know God or have God in their hearts. They lie. They say the words, yet show that it is not so for them.

 

[Guest]

Sooner or later we'll all see who the prophet is - Nas

 

[handy]

I believe that looking at this text within the context is very important.

I don't think we are meant to pull some verses out and run with them as if they are the end-all of truth. There are some verses that do "stand alone", John 3:16 comes to mind.... but for the most part, context, context, context is everything. The context of this particular text is the fact that Gentiles were being given the Spirit and gifts of the Spirit and there was much confusion, both within the hearts and minds of the Gentile Christian themselves, who were used to idol worship as well as Jewish Christians who were seeking to put the Gentiles under the Law... It was within this context that Paul states that anyone who calls Jesus Lord does so by the Spirit.

 

[Edward]

I believe that looking at this text within the context is very important.

True, and I agree, but I've read it as a general thing from members quite a bit lately as if it is a fact that one can't seek God or have faith or anything like that without the draw and indwelling of the HS. This has to be an erroneous belief because many people do.

 

[Deborah13]

I believe that looking at this text within the context is very important.

True, and I agree, but I've read it as a general thing from members quite a bit lately as if it is a fact that one can't seek God or have faith or anything like that without the draw and indwelling of the HS. This has to be an erroneous belief because many people do.

I agree that one is draw by God. No one has the indwelling of the Holy Spirit before they accept Jesus. imo
However, hear what Paul says,
Acts 17 NIV
<sup class="versenum">22 </sup>Paul then stood up in the meeting of the Areopagus<sup class="crossreference" value='(AJ)'></sup> and said: “People of Athens! I see that in every way you are very religious.<sup class="crossreference" value='(AK)'></sup> <sup class="versenum">23 </sup>For as I walked around and looked carefully at your objects of worship, I even found an altar with this inscription: to an unknown god. So you are ignorant of the very thing you worship<sup class="crossreference" value='(AL)'></sup>—and this is what I am going to proclaim to you.
<sup class="versenum">24 </sup>“The God who made the world and everything in it<sup class="crossreference" value='(AM)'></sup> is the Lord of heaven and earth<sup class="crossreference" value='(AN)'></sup> and does not live in temples built by human hands.<sup class="crossreference" value='(AO)'></sup> <sup class="versenum">25 </sup>And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything. Rather, he himself gives everyone life and breath and everything else.<sup class="crossreference" value='(AP)'></sup> <sup class="versenum">26 </sup>From one man he made all the nations, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he marked out their appointed times in history and the boundaries of their lands.<sup class="crossreference" value='(AQ)'></sup> <sup class="versenum">27</sup>God did this so that they would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from any one of us.<sup class="crossreference" value='(AR)'></sup> <sup class="versenum">28 </sup>‘For in him we live and move and have our being.’<sup class="footnote" value='[b]'>[b]</sup><sup class="crossreference" value='(AS)'></sup> As some of your own poets have said, ‘We are his offspring.’<sup class="footnote" value='[c]'>[http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts 17&version=NIV#fen-NIV-27552c</sup>

 

[farouk]

I believe that looking at this text within the context is very important.

True, and I agree, but I've read it as a general thing from members quite a bit lately as if it is a fact that one can't seek God or have faith or anything like that without the draw and indwelling of the HS. This has to be an erroneous belief because many people do.

I agree that one is draw by God. No one has the indwelling of the Holy Spirit before they accept Jesus. imo
However, hear what Paul says,
Acts 17 NIV
<sup class="versenum">22 </sup>Paul then stood up in the meeting of the Areopagus<sup class="crossreference" value='(AJ)'></sup> and said: “People of Athens! I see that in every way you are very religious.<sup class="crossreference" value='(AK)'></sup> <sup class="versenum">23 </sup>For as I walked around and looked carefully at your objects of worship, I even found an altar with this inscription: to an unknown god. So you are ignorant of the very thing you worship<sup class="crossreference" value='(AL)'></sup>—and this is what I am going to proclaim to you.
<sup class="versenum">24 </sup>“The God who made the world and everything in it<sup class="crossreference" value='(AM)'></sup> is the Lord of heaven and earth<sup class="crossreference" value='(AN)'></sup> and does not live in temples built by human hands.<sup class="crossreference" value='(AO)'></sup> <sup class="versenum">25 </sup>And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything. Rather, he himself gives everyone life and breath and everything else.<sup class="crossreference" value='(AP)'></sup> <sup class="versenum">26 </sup>From one man he made all the nations, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he marked out their appointed times in history and the boundaries of their lands.<sup class="crossreference" value='(AQ)'></sup> <sup class="versenum">27</sup>God did this so that they would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from any one of us.<sup class="crossreference" value='(AR)'></sup> <sup class="versenum">28 </sup>‘For in him we live and move and have our being.’<sup class="footnote" value='[b]'>[b]</sup><sup class="crossreference" value='(AS)'></sup> As some of your own poets have said, ‘We are his offspring.’<sup class="footnote" value='[c]'>[http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts 17&version=NIV#fen-NIV-27552c</sup>

[MENTION=93058]Deborah13[/MENTION]:

John 6 also speaks of the drawing power of God upon the sinner.

Blessings.

 

[Deborah13]

John 6 also speaks of the drawing power of God upon the sinner.

Yep, I said that first but didn't give scripture.

I believe God always draws us first. We may know there is a Creator (Paul says He reveals Himself to all men, through the world around us) but I think He must draw us to seek Him with all our hearts and souls and be able to find Him, by hearing the Gospel message usually.
So many questions we just can't answer. "in times past, God winked" What does that mean? Sometimes when it comes to God, I feel like a 5 yr. old!

 

[farouk]

John 6 also speaks of the drawing power of God upon the sinner.

Yep, I said that first but didn't give scripture.

I believe God always draws us first. We may know there is a Creator (Paul says He reveals Himself to all men, through the world around us) but I think He must draw us to seek Him with all our hearts and souls and be able to find Him, by hearing the Gospel message usually.
So many questions we just can't answer. "in times past, God winked" What does that mean? Sometimes when it comes to God, I feel like a 5 yr. old!

[MENTION=93058]Deborah13[/MENTION]:

winked = overlooked?

(Qualified by, 'but now commandeth all men everywhere to repent', in Acts).

Blessings.

 

[Guest]

1 Corinthians 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

Also notice 1 Cor 12:2 Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led. What I'm trying to say here is that your scripture is talking about false prophets I believe. No man could possibly know what the Holy Spirit is about unless one is baptized by faith. When a non-believer comes to faith, he doesn't understand what he's believing in yet, UNTIL THE HOLY SPIRIT COMES AND INDWELLS. He doesn't understand that the love of Jesus is ALIVE. Why would a believer call Jesus accursed if they were indwelled? At least that's what I got out of it.

 

[handy]

John 6 also speaks of the drawing power of God upon the sinner.

Yep, I said that first but didn't give scripture.

I believe God always draws us first. We may know there is a Creator (Paul says He reveals Himself to all men, through the world around us) but I think He must draw us to seek Him with all our hearts and souls and be able to find Him, by hearing the Gospel message usually.
So many questions we just can't answer. "in times past, God winked" What does that mean? Sometimes when it comes to God, I feel like a 5 yr. old!

[MENTION=93058]Deborah13[/MENTION]:

winked = overlooked?

(Qualified by, 'but now commandeth all men everywhere to repent', in Acts).

Blessings.

"Overlooked" is how my bible translates this and I think it's a very sound translation.

 

[Deborah13]

John 6 also speaks of the drawing power of God upon the sinner.

Yep, I said that first but didn't give scripture.

I believe God always draws us first. We may know there is a Creator (Paul says He reveals Himself to all men, through the world around us) but I think He must draw us to seek Him with all our hearts and souls and be able to find Him, by hearing the Gospel message usually.
So many questions we just can't answer. "in times past, God winked" What does that mean? Sometimes when it comes to God, I feel like a 5 yr. old!

[MENTION=93058]Deborah13[/MENTION]:

winked = overlooked?

(Qualified by, 'but now commandeth all men everywhere to repent', in Acts).

Blessings.

"Overlooked" is how my bible translates this and I think it's a very sound translation.

I really need to quit being short. Thanks handy, I knew what the word meant, Sorry. But in the context .... is well baffling to me, but it's not really important.
Have a blessed day.

 

[Messenger]

I have a question about a scripture and a known belief (at least here on the forum). It concerns the below scripture.

1 Corinthians 12:3

"...and no one can say “Jesus is Lord†except in the Holy Spirit./(ESV)

It is well said on the forum that all faith comes from God, and even having the desire to seek Lord would not be possible if it had not been given us by the Holy Spirit. This scripture says that we can not even say that Jesus is Lord, except in the Holy Spirit. I myself can wrap my mind around this and am well grounded in the belief of same.

The question is; it is sadly and painfully obvious, that there are "so-called" christians who say that they are are, and say that Jesus is Lord of their life, but their works and behaviour deny this fact. How is this possible if this scripture is true?

Take the televangelists for instance, like Benny Hinn, or Kenneth Copeland (among a myriad of others) who (rob God) and get up on stage every day confessing that Jesus is Lord, yet do not know God or have God in their hearts. They lie. They say the words, yet show that it is not so for the

Not only can an individual or religious institution mouth those words to appear holy and credible to their audience, but they may even use all the words of the Bible, and distort them to preach a false gospel. That's what satan and his ministers of righteousness do (2 Cor. 11:13,14,15). They are deceivers; sons of the devil (John 8:44).

But for those who are Sons of God, who have the Holy Spirit abiding in them (Gal. 4:6), to say "JESUS IS LORD" points to all that He is. Jesus Christ is Jehovah God their Saviour, Master, Father, Husband, Jehovah Our Righteousness (Jer. 23:6; 33:16), The Word of God (John 1:1), and their soon coming KING (Rev. 11:12) to remove His Sons from the earth (Isaiah 33:17; 66:5), and take them to their Promised Land (Is. 35:10). He is Creator of all things; is Sovereign and Ruler over all; and all things are subject to His Power and Authority: men (Jer.10:23), angels, principalities, powers...everything! For all things were created by Him and for His Predetermined Council, His Will and Purpose, and Pleasure (Rev.4:11).

As for the rest, the tares (Mat. 13:40): the wicked, JESUS CHRIST THE LORD is soon coming as JUDGE of the whole world (2 Pet. 3:10; Isaiah 13:9,10,11). GTG!

 

[Edward]

Not only can an individual or religious institution mouth those words to appear holy and credible to their audience, but they may even use all the words of the Bible, and distort them to preach a false gospel. That's what satan and his ministers of righteousness do (2 Cor. 11:13,14,15). They are deceivers; sons of the devil (John 8:44).

It's actually pretty easy to spot these people, for the most part. As believers, we know what to look for because we know the Lords teachings and commandments. Being a believer is more than simple belief, it's being a disciple. Adhering to and following the Lord and His teachings, and obeying Him. Do they obey the Lord? Do they practice acts that are nowhere taught in the Scriptures? Anyone can make a mistake and sin, but those who make a habit of it are easily spotted. Light will shine or darkness is apparent.

That's why it is important to obey the Lord. We purify our souls when we obey the Lord. (1 Peter 1:22) To be Jesus' disciple, we must deny self and follow Him (Matthew 16:24-25). Often people want forgiveness and the blessings of discipleship, but they do not want to give up their own desires and live according to Jesus' teachings. This is not true discipleship. Choices in life often consist of setting priorities. What will I do with my time, abilities, money, etc.? For a disciple of Jesus, top priority must always be serving Jesus and doing His will. One who is not willing to make this sacrifice, cannot be Jesus' disciple.

Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind..." (Romans 12:1,2). Discipleship is total sacrifice, total transformation of self, total lifetime commitment. Jesus must take precedence over every thing else. When we realize what Jesus has done for us, such demands are not unreasonable, and when practiced, shine a light.

The harder ones to spot are the wolves in sheeps clothing. But when studies the scriptures daily and diligently the markers are revealed and discernment becomes easier. Consistency is the key here. Boy, I sure wouldn't want to be one of those false prophet preachers on judgement day! To knowingly distort and twist the scriptures for personal gain is literally robbing God. Not a wise decision to make.

Love your avatar Messenger!

 

[handy]

[MENTION=93058]Deborah13[/MENTION]:

winked = overlooked?

(Qualified by, 'but now commandeth all men everywhere to repent', in Acts).

Blessings.

"Overlooked" is how my bible translates this and I think it's a very sound translation.

I really need to quit being short. Thanks handy, I knew what the word meant, Sorry. But in the context .... is well baffling to me, but it's not really important.
Have a blessed day.

It's actually one of my favorite passages. I don't want to derail this thread, but I'll send you a PM...

 

[Deborah13]

It's actually one of my favorite passages. I don't want to derail this thread, but I'll send you a PM...

Thanks!

 

[farouk]

[MENTION=93058]Deborah13[/MENTION]; [MENTION=4376]handy[/MENTION]:

What I wonder is if the dispensational background here is relevant to the 'winked': my paraphrase would be that in the past God's thoughts were principally upon His earthly people Israel as his channel of witness and blessing, but now for the heavenly people, the church, to be gathered from among Jew and Gentile, the call to repentance goes far and wide.

(Further two cents'.)

Blessings.

 

[Edward]

It's actually one of my favorite passages. I don't want to derail this thread, but I'll send you a PM...

I wondered about that myself. Winked...

Don't worry about derailing my thread, wont hurt my feelings any, where it goes is where it goes! I like the flow of this thread. Seemed like a stupid question at first, but the flow is going in a good direction, and totally relevant as far as I'm concerned.

 

[handy]

Well then...

As I mentioned to Deborah, the gospel is often presented in such a way that we can get the impression that only way anyone can ever be saved is to either hear about God and Jesus and have a "born again" experience or have been one of the Old Testament Jews.

But, the Scriptures teach us that God is a God of love and One that does not wish that any perish. Another thought is that He came to us while we were all sinners.

We know that Jesus said that no man will go to the Father except through Him... but I think we tend to assume too much into that... assume that He meant that all humans, for all time either have to have a "born again" experience or be forever lost. We probably get a lot of this thinking from the Calvinists who have a tendency to write off all humans that are not the "elect" as being forever damned.

I don't think the Scriptures teach this. Certainly, for those who had the Law in the Old Testament and for all who hear the gospel, we certainly have a great advantage because we are not in the position of having to "grope and find Him" (Acts 17:27). But, as Acts 17 states, people from all nations, throughout all times did indeed "grope" for God in ignorance... and Paul states that God will overlook their ignorance.

I understand that as saying that if someone who lived in a place and time that would cause them to never hear of the God of Israel or Jesus... (I always think of my ancient ancestors on the island of Ireland thousands of years ago)... if they did indeed see creation and determine that there must have been a Creator as per Romans 1 and in ignorance try to serve that Creator to the best of their abilities... then is not that the work of the Holy Spirit as well?

Some of this is conjecture and we must never build doctrine on conjecture... but I do think that it might very well be possible, on the day of judgment, that there will be those who come before the Throne and recognize in Jesus that Creator they tried, in ignorance and darkness, to serve. If they did, that would have been by the grace of the Spirit as well. This does not contradict "no man comes to the Father except through Me" nor does it contradict 1 Corinthians 12:3 Rather, it simply enhances our understanding of how a loving God works His will...

Again... somewhat conjecture. But, this seems far more in line with a loving God than One who would created the vast majority of all mankind for no other purpose than to suffer all of eternity in hell fire and torment... which is what many believe.

 

[Messenger]

The harder ones to spot are the wolves in sheeps clothing. But when studies the scriptures daily and diligently the markers are revealed and discernment becomes easier. Consistency is the key here. Boy, I sure wouldn't want to be one of those false prophet preachers on judgement day! To knowingly distort and twist the scriptures for personal gain is literally robbing God. Not a wise decision to make.

I agree. But unless a person is given understanding (John 3:27; Luke 24:45) they will not discern who the wolves are. The big arenas and congregations are filled with those who consider themselves to be Christian believers, yet they continue to sit under false teaching (2 Tim. 3:7). God refers to them as tares (Matthew 13:25); but they look just like true believers (Matthew 13:29, 30). The Wheat, a very small remnant, are the ones who God calls to come out from them (Rev. 18:4) before the final burning (Mal. 4:1).

Love your avatar Messenger!

Thanks much!

 

[Edward]

somewhat conjecture. But, this seems far more in line with a loving God than One who would created the vast majority of all mankind for no other purpose than to suffer all of eternity in hell fire and torment... which is what many believe.

That makes pretty durn good sense handy. I never could see how people could believe that sort of thing. There's all sorts of scripture which refutes it. I was terrified of God at first but as I drew closer to Him the fear lessened and the love increased. (1 John 4:18). Pretty sharp.