Only IF....

[Jay T]

God Promises.....Only IF....

1 John 1:7 "But ...IF... we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin".

1 John 2:24 "IF... that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.

Hebrews 10:38 "Now the just shall live by faith: but ...IF... [any man] draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him".

John 15:5 " I am the vine, ye [are] the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
15:6 "IF... a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast [them] into the fire, and they are burned.
15:7 "IF... ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you".

John 8:51 " Verily, verily, I say unto you, IF...a man keep my saying, he shall never see death".

Romans 11:22 "Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, IF... thou continue in [his] goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off".

2 Peter 1:10 "Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for IF... ye do these things, ye shall never fall"

Hebrews 3:14 "For we are made partakers of Christ, IF... we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end"

2 Timothy 2:12 "IF... we suffer, we shall also reign with [him]: IF...we deny [him], he also will deny us"

Hebrews 10:26 "For IF... we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth 7Th Day Sabbath-Sunday, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries".

1 John 2:3 "And hereby we do know that we know him, IF...we keep his commandments. 4th commandment...7th day Sabbath ?
2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him".

John 15:14 "Ye are my friends, IF... ye do whatsoever I command you". [/color]
And..... 20:20 "And hallow my sabbaths; and they shall be a sign between me and you, that ye may know that I [am] the LORD your God".
luke 6:46 "And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say ?"

 

[Dave...]

John 8:31 Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, "If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed. 32 And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."

If we don't? Then we are not His disciples and never were.

1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

A true believer always perseveres.

Perseverance is a gift from God that cannot fail.

1 Peter 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

1 Corinthians 1:7 so that you come short in no gift, eagerly waiting for the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ, 8 who will also confirm you to the end, that you may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 God is faithful, by whom you were called into the fellowship of His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.

1 Thessalonians 5:23 Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 24 He who calls you is faithful, who also will do it.

Jude 24 Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, And to present you faultless Before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy, 25 To God our Savior, Who alone is wise, Be glory and majesty, Dominion and power, Both now and forever. Amen.

"God elected us for this very purpose. "He chose us in him [Christ] before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight" (Ephesians 1:4). We were predestinated to be conformed to the image of Christ in all His spotless purity (Rom. 8:29). This divine choice makes it certain that we shall be like Him when He appears (I John 3:2). From this fact, John deduces that everyone who has this hope in him purifies himself just as Christ is pure (I John 3:3). His use of the word "everyone" makes it quite certain that those who do not purify themselves will not see Christ, nor be like Him. By their lack of holiness they prove that they were not so predestinated. The apostle thus deals a crushing blow to Antinomianism. God's own holiness thus requires perseverance. "God's grace insures our persevering`but this does not make it any less our persevering." Believers cannot acquire "the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus" unless they "press on toward the goal" (Philippians 3:14). But as they "work out [their] salvation with fear and trembling" (Philippians 2:12), they find that "it is God who is at work in [them], both to will and work for His good pleasure" (Philippians 2:13)."

Romans 8:38 For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, 39 nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

1. Classic Arminianism

• One must persevere in faith to be saved.

• True believers can lose their faith.

• Those dying without faith in Christ are condemned.

“The believer who loses his faith is damned.â€Â


2. Antinomianism

• One need not persevere in faith to be saved.

• True believers can lose their faith.

• Those who lose their faith are saved, since they once believed.

"The believer who loses his faith is saved."


3. Classic Calvinism

• One must persevere in faith to be saved.

• True believers cannot lose their faith, since it’s God’s gift.

• Those dying without faith in Christ are condemned.

• Those who “lose†their faith never had it to begin with.

• God will preserve true believers and they will be saved.

“The ‘believer’ who loses his faith never really had itâ€â€or at least it wasn’t in Jesus.â€Â


Psalm 37:23 The steps of a good man are ordered by the LORD, And He delights in his way. 24 Though he fall, he shall not be utterly cast down; For the LORD upholds him with His hand.

Philippians 1:6 being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ;

2 Timothy 4:18 And the Lord will deliver me from every evil work and preserve me for His heavenly kingdom. To Him be glory forever and ever. Amen!

Hebrews 7:25 Therefore He is also able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.

Hebrews 10:39 But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul.

Hebrews 12:1 Therefore we also, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which so easily ensnares us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, 2 looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Hebrews 6:11 And we desire that each one of you show the same diligence to the full assurance of hope until the end, 12 that you do not become sluggish, but imitate those who through faith and patience inherit the promises.

 

[PDoug]

God Promises.....Only IF....

1 John 1:7 "But ...IF... we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin".

1 John 2:24 "IF... that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.

Hebrews 10:38 "Now the just shall live by faith: but ...IF... [any man] draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him".

John 15:5 " I am the vine, ye [are] the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
15:6 "IF... a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast [them] into the fire, and they are burned.
15:7 "IF... ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you".

John 8:51 " Verily, verily, I say unto you, IF...a man keep my saying, he shall never see death".

Romans 11:22 "Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, IF... thou continue in [his] goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off".

2 Peter 1:10 "Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for IF... ye do these things, ye shall never fall"

Hebrews 3:14 "For we are made partakers of Christ, IF... we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end"

2 Timothy 2:12 "IF... we suffer, we shall also reign with [him]: IF...we deny [him], he also will deny us"

Hebrews 10:26 "For IF... we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth 7Th Day Sabbath-Sunday, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries".

1 John 2:3 "And hereby we do know that we know him, IF...we keep his commandments. 4th commandment...7th day Sabbath ?
2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him".

John 15:14 "Ye are my friends, IF... ye do whatsoever I command you". [/color]
And..... 20:20 "And hallow my sabbaths; and they shall be a sign between me and you, that ye may know that I [am] the LORD your God".
luke 6:46 "And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say ?"

I see that you are still advocating justification by works. Please note that the only way a person can keep Christ's commandments is by having faith. Having faith correctly squares you away with every requirement the Bible says someone must meet, in order to be saved. Also, God is a Spirit, and things He talks about He means in the spiritual sense. (Whatever the fleshy expressions of those things He talks about happen to be, they are at the most, incidental.) Therefore when God says keep the Sabbath holy, He does not mean Saturdays. He means it is important for you ensure that you are pure, so that you can keep the seventh spiritual day (which is the thousand year reign of Christ) holy. The seventh spiritual day comes after the 6 spiritual days (six thousand years - from Adam till now) of this age of mankind. (See Epistle of BARNABAS 15.) That is why Christ worked on the (fleshy/earthy) Sabbath, and said that His Father works on the Sabbath as well.

It is important to realize that what is written in the Old Testament is just one expression of the law - which is in turn, a particular expression of faith. The law is the sum of all godly behaviors everyone should exhibit, as a result of the faith they (should) have. That is why even though someone who has faith does not sacrifice animals like what what was done in the Old Testament, he still lives by the law.

 

[Jay T]

God Promises.....Only IF....

1 John 1:7 "But ...IF... we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin".

1 John 2:24 "IF... that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.

Hebrews 10:38 "Now the just shall live by faith: but ...IF... [any man] draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him".

John 15:5 " I am the vine, ye [are] the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
15:6 "IF... a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast [them] into the fire, and they are burned.
15:7 "IF... ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you".

John 8:51 " Verily, verily, I say unto you, IF...a man keep my saying, he shall never see death".

Romans 11:22 "Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, IF... thou continue in [his] goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off".

2 Peter 1:10 "Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for IF... ye do these things, ye shall never fall"

Hebrews 3:14 "For we are made partakers of Christ, IF... we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end"

2 Timothy 2:12 "IF... we suffer, we shall also reign with [him]: IF...we deny [him], he also will deny us"

Hebrews 10:26 "For IF... we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth 7Th Day Sabbath-Sunday, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries".

1 John 2:3 "And hereby we do know that we know him, IF...we keep his commandments. 4th commandment...7th day Sabbath ?
2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him".

John 15:14 "Ye are my friends, IF... ye do whatsoever I command you". [/color]
And..... 20:20 "And hallow my sabbaths; and they shall be a sign between me and you, that ye may know that I [am] the LORD your God".
luke 6:46 "And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say ?"

I see that you are still advocating justification by works.

Amazing !
You can read these Bible verses, and that is how you think ?

Please note that the only way a person can keep Christ's commandments is by having faith.

Have I not been saying that all along ?
No one can keep the 10 commandments, in their own strenght.
Romans 10:4 shows that.... 10:4 For Christ [is] the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Having faith correctly squares you away with every requirement the Bible says someone must meet, in order to be saved. Also, God is a Spirit, and things He talks about He means in the spiritual sense. (Whatever the fleshy expressions of those things He talks about happen to be, they are at the most, incidental.) Therefore when God says keep the Sabbath holy, He does not mean Saturdays. He means it is important for you ensure that you are pure, so that you can keep the seventh spiritual day (which is the thousand year reign of Christ) holy. The seventh spiritual day comes after the 6 spiritual days (six thousand years - from Adam till now) of this age of mankind. (See Epistle of BARNABAS 15.) That is why Christ worked on the (fleshy/earthy) Sabbath, and said that His Father works on the Sabbath as well.

Have you read Isaiah 66:22,23 ? 66:22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.
66:23 And it shall come to pass, [that] from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.

It is important to realize that what is written in the Old Testament is just one expression of the law - which is in turn, a particular expression of faith. The law is the sum of all godly behaviors everyone should exhibit, as a result of the faith they (should) have. That is why even though someone who has faith does not sacrifice animals like what what was done in the Old Testament, he still lives by the law.

Yes,
those who keep all the 10 commandments as Jesus revealed on the Sermon on the Mount...shows their relationship to Jesus Christ.

Those who 'love not' the Lord, will not keep the commandments such as the 4th commandment...the 7th day sabbath (Romans 8:7....1 John 2:3,4)

 

[AVBunyan]

Nothing changes

Same old story :-?
1. It appears that many here have no clue as to what justification really is according to the scriptures and most likely never will.

2. It appears you cannot distinguish between Israel and the body of Christ.

Summary -

Here is a novel idea - why not actually study the words that end in "tion" instead of making goulash of doctrine by combining any truth from any age and mixing it all up just so you will be able to stand before God so you can tell him what a fine fella you are by keeping the commandments, keeping your faith, and all the other self-rigtheous works you can come up with?

You folks remind of the fella who took his car in the shop with a blown engine. The mechanic tows it in and gives it a new paint job and then calls up the owner and says his car is now fixed. The owner shows up and turns the key and it does't work. But the mechanic says, "But it's got a new paint job!!! Looks great!!!"

Hey folks, your engine is blown and you can't get it fixed by giving it a outward paint job which is what you are trying to do. Either God rebuilds it or you do. Spiritually speaking you can't "rebuild the engine" but you folks think you can. What a waste.

Pitiful :-?

 

[thessalonian]

Av ddn't you do a swan song? Something about a snowgoose. Hopefully you won't get the bird flu. It's going around I hear. :angel:

 

[AVBunyan]

Swan song

Av didn't you do a swan song?

Yes, I came back to look up an old article and saw this thread and couldn't resist -

But, yes - I'm pretty much out - always wanted to use the "broken car" illustration - didn't expect it to do anything.

2 Cor 4:3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

Rom 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

 

[PDoug]

Having faith correctly squares you away with every requirement the Bible says someone must meet, in order to be saved. Also, God is a Spirit, and things He talks about He means in the spiritual sense. (Whatever the fleshy expressions of those things He talks about happen to be, they are at the most, incidental.) Therefore when God says keep the Sabbath holy, He does not mean Saturdays. He means it is important for you ensure that you are pure, so that you can keep the seventh spiritual day (which is the thousand year reign of Christ) holy. The seventh spiritual day comes after the 6 spiritual days (six thousand years - from Adam till now) of this age of mankind. (See Epistle of BARNABAS 15.) That is why Christ worked on the (fleshy/earthy) Sabbath, and said that His Father works on the Sabbath as well.

Have you read Isaiah 66:22,23 ? 66:22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.
66:23 And it shall come to pass, [that] from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.

Please note that the New Moons and Sabbaths mentioned in the above scripture, refer to the beginnings of new eras, and Holy Days, in the new creation. They do not refer to the (earthly) New Moons and Sabbaths celebrated by the Jews.

I see that you are still advocating justification by works.

Amazing !
You can read these Bible verses, and that is how you think ?
[quote:74703]
Please note that the only way a person can keep Christ's commandments is by having faith.

Have I not been saying that all along ?
No one can keep the 10 commandments, in their own strenght.
Romans 10:4 shows that.... 10:4 For Christ [is] the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
[/quote:74703]
Just to be clear: a person is not supposed to directly pursue righteousness in order to achieve it, while having faith. Per Galatians 5:4, that will cause the person to forfeit his salvation. A person must have faith, and depend on having faith to cause his behavior to become righteous automatically - in an increasing manner. There is no other way to achieve righteousness (Galatians 2:16).

 

[Merry Menagerie]

ha ha ha that's because when we are unsaved then the 'if' needs to be there. If we walk in the light simply means that if we were actually christian and if we were actually saved then we'd walk in the light.

 

[Solo]

I don't know how to define the word SALVATION any simpler. God gave us a free gift, and his character does not allow him to take it back or allow us to give it back regardless of how fleshly we become in our walk. Only those who have not been born again, born of the Spirit of God will be condemned. Those that have been born again, born of the Spirit of God will be redeemed when Jesus returns. It does not get much simpler than that, children!

 

[Jay T]

[Just to be clear: a person is not supposed to directly pursue righteousness in order to achieve it,

Leave no impression that man has no responsibility, in their own salvation.

Man has a work to do...in their own salvation.
Philippians 2:12 "Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, [work out your own salvation] with fear and trembling".
God provides the tools (grace, ect.), but it is man, who must use them in the correct manner.

Remember that faith is gained by Bible study (Romans 10:17), and God does not....study the Bible for you.
It is a responsibility, you must bear, 'IF' ...you are to progress in the faith that 'saves' anyone.

Also, the keeping of the Law of God (the 10 commandments, as found in Exodus 20:3-17), is a work 'you' must do yourself.....WITH Jesus Christ, providing the power, to do so.

As it is written: Eccl. 12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this [is] the whole [duty] of man".
This is a Bible verse very, very, few, in the Christian world understands !

 

[Jay T]

[Just to be clear: a person is not supposed to directly pursue righteousness in order to achieve it,

We are told to pursue Righteousness....in keeping the commandments of God.... Psalms 119:172 My tongue shall speak of thy word: for all thy commandments [are] righteousness.

Eccl. 12:13 "Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this [is] the [whole duty] of man".

 

[PDoug]

[Just to be clear: a person is not supposed to directly pursue righteousness in order to achieve it,

Leave no impression that man has no responsibility, in their own salvation.

Man has a work to do...in their own salvation.
Philippians 2:12 "Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, [work out your own salvation] with fear and trembling".
God provides the tools (grace, ect.), but it is man, who must use them in the correct manner.

Remember that faith is gained by Bible study (Romans 10:17), and God does not....study the Bible for you.
It is a responsibility, you must bear, 'IF' ...you are to progress in the faith that 'saves' anyone.

Don't you realize that the scriptures provide context for one another? How can you then ignore Galatians 5:4 and many other scriptures that specifically warn you not to pursue righteousness directly while having faith? If the scriptures say that you are not permitted to pursue righteousness directly, but can only pursue it by having faith, why do you ignore the scriptures and do as you please? None of the scriptures you quoted said that someone should do righteous deeds directly. So again, how is it that you contend that someone must pursue righteousness directly, when there is no basis in scripture for doing what you assert? Are you saying that people must disobey the scriptures in order to comply with them? I do not understand your reasoning.

Don't you realize that when the scriptures say that you must be kind, loving, etc., they mean that you must have faith a lot (described by Christ in Mark 11:22-24) so that you can generate these qualities in you? The scriptures do not mean you must attempt to do these things directly - because among other things, this is impossible to do. Therefore please realize the importance of having faith correctly, and that it is this specific exercise which you must rely on to produce good works in you.

 

[PDoug]

Jay T,

Do not believe that having faith correctly is a walk in the park. A person who does this will be tested several times, and the testing can be severe and very drawn out. Did the Father test Christ by how well He abided by the codes set out in the law, or by the difficulties He faced in His ministry - including the sacrifice He made on the cross? Was Job tested by how well he lived by a number of rules, or by the great pain he endured, while continuing to have faith? Absolutely no one gained favor with God by following the law directly. Everyone who has ever gained favor with God, did so by having faith, and were held in high regard by God for enduring suffering - while continuing to have faith.

Righteousness is God's reward for having faith: that is what it is. Every godly quality a person has, is given to him because of the faith he has - and this includes righteousness. Therefore do not believe that you can have righteous behavior to present to God, which you worked hard to achieve. It is God who gives you righteous behavior which you see appear in yourself, in a natural fashion.

 

[Heidi]

God Promises.....Only IF....

1 John 1:7 "But ...IF... we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin".

1 John 2:24 "IF... that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.

Hebrews 10:38 "Now the just shall live by faith: but ...IF... [any man] draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him".

John 15:5 " I am the vine, ye [are] the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
15:6 "IF... a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast [them] into the fire, and they are burned.
15:7 "IF... ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you".

John 8:51 " Verily, verily, I say unto you, IF...a man keep my saying, he shall never see death".

Romans 11:22 "Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, IF... thou continue in [his] goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off".

2 Peter 1:10 "Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for IF... ye do these things, ye shall never fall"

Hebrews 3:14 "For we are made partakers of Christ, IF... we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end"

2 Timothy 2:12 "IF... we suffer, we shall also reign with [him]: IF...we deny [him], he also will deny us"

Hebrews 10:26 "For IF... we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth 7Th Day Sabbath-Sunday, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries".

1 John 2:3 "And hereby we do know that we know him, IF...we keep his commandments. 4th commandment...7th day Sabbath ?
2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him".

John 15:14 "Ye are my friends, IF... ye do whatsoever I command you". [/color]
And..... 20:20 "And hallow my sabbaths; and they shall be a sign between me and you, that ye may know that I [am] the LORD your God".
luke 6:46 "And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say ?"

Sorry, Jay, but God's love is not conditional. Human love is. If God's love is conditional upon our behavior, then you're saying we save ourselves. You're also contradicting Ephesians 2:8-9 and many other passages in the bible like all of chatper 2 of Galatians. False teaching is teaching that contradicts any part of the bible. So you cannot just take 2 or 3 verses out of context. You have to put the whole bible together.

Once we receive the Holy Spirit as Paul says, "you however, are not controlled by the sinful nature, you are controlled by the Spirit if the Spirit of God lives in you." The Holy Spirit is simply stronger than the devil, period. No one born of God is ruled by sin, but by the Spirit. He will continue to sin, but the Spirit convicts him of this and leads him to repentence. And that is how Jesus washes away our sins. Jesus said he will never abandon us. That includes when we do wrong because none of us can ever be perfect and if we ever could, we would stop relying on Christ and depend on ourselves. :wink:

 

[Solo]

[Just to be clear: a person is not supposed to directly pursue righteousness in order to achieve it,

Leave no impression that man has no responsibility, in their own salvation.

Man has a work to do...in their own salvation.
Philippians 2:12 "Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, [work out your own salvation] with fear and trembling".
God provides the tools (grace, ect.), but it is man, who must use them in the correct manner.

Remember that faith is gained by Bible study (Romans 10:17), and God does not....study the Bible for you.
It is a responsibility, you must bear, 'IF' ...you are to progress in the faith that 'saves' anyone.

Also, the keeping of the Law of God (the 10 commandments, as found in Exodus 20:3-17), is a work 'you' must do yourself.....WITH Jesus Christ, providing the power, to do so.

As it is written: Eccl. 12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this [is] the whole [duty] of man".
This is a Bible verse very, very, few, in the Christian world understands !

One observation that I have JayT is that many people do not understand salvation.

No one goes to God on their own, God draws them.
After God draws them he opens their eyes by the Holy Spirit to their need; until then they are dead and cannot see.
After the Holy Spirit opens their eyes to the need of a Savior, the Word is presented whereby Jesus' crucifixion and resurrection are revealed by the Holy Spirit and faith is given by God to that individual. No one is saved on their own works, it is a free gift so that no man can boast. Salvation is from God to man, and man is sealed by God until the day of redemption. This act of salvation is nothing that man can glory in; he can only thank God and give God the glory. Works salvation is dead because there is no faith, and without faith one cannot please God. Works without faith are dead works. Works after faith when one walks in the Spirit are works of God, not man.

 

[Jay T]

Don't you realize that when the scriptures say that you must be kind, loving, etc., they mean that you must have faith a lot (described by Christ in Mark 11:22-24) so that you can generate these qualities in you?

First....the commandments of God are Righteousness, as they constitute what Righteousness is, OK ?
And then we are told to 'keep' the commandments, showing we have a part to play in our own salvation.
]quote]...and that it is this specific exercise which you must rely on to produce good works in you.
[/quote]Faith comes from Bible study (Romans 10:17).

Grace, is the power 'from' God to 'obey' what we read in the Bible,. exercising that faith, (Romans 1:5).

The works of Righteousness is.....relying upon God, to provide the born-again person with the power to perform 'good works', we humans, with out God working in their lives are incapapble of doing.
As Jesus said, 'without HIM, we can do nothing'.
Romans 2:13 "For not the hearers of the law [are] just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified".

Christians are created (born-again) 'for good works'.....
Ephesians 2:8 "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.[/u]

 

[PDoug]

Don't you realize that when the scriptures say that you must be kind, loving, etc., they mean that you must have faith a lot (described by Christ in Mark 11:22-24) so that you can generate these qualities in you?

First....the commandments of God are Righteousness, as they constitute what Righteousness is, OK ?
And then we are told to 'keep' the commandments, showing we have a part to play in our own salvation.
]quote]...and that it is this specific exercise which you must rely on to produce good works in you.
Faith comes from Bible study (Romans 10:17).

Grace, is the power 'from' God to 'obey' what we read in the Bible,. exercising that faith, (Romans 1:5).

The works of Righteousness is.....relying upon God, to provide the born-again person with the power to perform 'good works', we humans, with out God working in their lives are incapapble of doing.
As Jesus said, 'without HIM, we can do nothing'.
Romans 2:13 "For not the hearers of the law [are] just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified".

Christians are created (born-again) 'for good works'.....
Ephesians 2:8 "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.[/u]

Nothing that you wrote in your message, refuted what you quoted from my message. If the scriptures tell you that you are not supposed to directly pursue righteousness while having faith (Galatians 5:4) in order to achieve righteousness, then you are not supposed to directly pursue righteousness while having faith in order to achieve righteousness.

When the scriptures say that faith comes from hearing the word, they mean that a person has faith as a result of being pursuaded and instructed on how to do so, due to his or her hearing of the gospel. So again, per the scriptures, a person attains salvation and righteousness by faith, and not by works (Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 3:28, Romans 4:1-8).

Please be clear that faith is not directly believing in God and in God's salvation. That is nonsense! The Jews did the same and they were certainly not saved - as their works attested with their crucifixion of Christ, and their persecution of the early Jewish saints. The only legitimate way someone can have faith, is by following Christ's instructions on how to do so in Mark 11:22-24.

 

[Jay T]

Was Job tested by how well he lived by a number of rules, or by the great pain he endured, while continuing to have faith?

The whole test of Job's, was to try to get him to commit sin, which is....breaking any one of the commandments (1 John 3:4)

Absolutely no one gained favor with God by following the law directly. Everyone who has ever gained favor with God, did so by having faith

Agreed.....that is why Sunday worship services is wrong.....because it is not of faith, but of works.
Works, to gain the favor of God.

It is God who gives you righteous behavior which you see appear in yourself, in a natural fashion.

If that were true.....why then does the Christian world persist, in saying, that No one can overcome sin in their lives, in this present world ?

 

[PDoug]

Was Job tested by how well he lived by a number of rules, or by the great pain he endured, while continuing to have faith?

The whole test of Job's, was to try to get him to commit sin, which is....breaking any one of the commandments (1 John 3:4)

The way you sin is to not have faith, the way you do not sin is to have faith. That is what the following scripture means:

1 John 3

9 No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God.

If someone is righteous because of faith (Romans 3:28, Romans 4:1-8) how can he be guilty of sinning, other than he abandons his faith?

Absolutely no one gained favor with God by following the law directly. Everyone who has ever gained favor with God, did so by having faith

Agreed.....that is why Sunday worship services is wrong.....because it is not of faith, but of works.
Works, to gain the favor of God.

If someone has faith legitimately, and is inclined to fellowship with others on Sunday, Saturday, Monday, or whenever, then that is a work produced by faith, and is hence righteous. If someone does the (direct) work of going to Church on Sunday, Saturday, Monday, or whenever, in an effort a achieve righteousness, then that person is in error, and is in fact guilty of unrighteousness. As I've indicated several times before, it is faith which justifies a man (Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 3:28), and it is works produced from faith which bear witness of his faith ([NASB] James 2:17).

It is God who gives you righteous behavior which you see appear in yourself, in a natural fashion.

If that were true.....why then does the Christian world persist, in saying, that No one can overcome sin in their lives, in this present world ?

Please note the following scripture:

Romans 7

21 So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me.
22 For in my inner being I delight in God's law;
23 but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members.
24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death?
25 Thanks be to Godâ€â€through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God's law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.

If you are correct, the Christian world is in error. Verse 25 of the scripture above indicates that someone who has faith is compelled to live according to God's law, and according to the law of his sinful nature at the same time. This means that when someone has faith, he is able to live righteously in some aspects of his behavior, but in others he is not able to do so. The more someone has faith, the more his overall behavior improves. Therefore though someone who has faith may not show every aspect of his behavior as being righteous, he does in fact exhibit righteousness in a manner that is satisfactory to God.