Our Rapture An End Time Event?

[Terral]

Greetings to All:

This thread is dedicated to Debate of whether Paul’s mystery gathering of 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 (1 Corinthians 15:51-53) is an “end of the age†(Matthew 24:3+) event connected to the “Great Tribulation†OR a totally unrelated event altogether. My hypothesis says that Paul is describing a ‘mystery’ gathering of the mystery ‘church’ (Ephesians 5:32) ‘caught up’ (1 Thessalonians 4:17), when the 1000 Years “Day of the Lord†(1 Thessalonians 5:1-2) “COMES†(2 Thessalonians 2:2). Our “mystery†(1 Corinthians 15:51) gathering to the Lord takes place 1000 Years before any of the “end of the age†events of Matthew 24 even begin. Satan is bound to start the 1000 Years “Day of the Lord†with the “voice of the archangel†(1 Thessalonians 4:16) and the sound of the trumpet heard ‘behind’ John in Revelation 1:10. Christ appears with our mystery “His body†Church (Colossians 1:24) already gathered in Revelation 1:11-18 and we are “IN†the Lamb throughout this prophetic book. All of the ‘end time’ events of Revelation (Matthew 24:4-31) take place 1000 years AFTER our mystery gathering to the Lord described by Paul and we “also will be revealed with Him in Glory†(Colossians 3:4 = Matthew 24:30-31).

My conclusions include the fact that the Pre, Mid and Post-tribulation Rapture interpretations are ‘dead wrong’ and off by almost 1000 years. We are living in the days leading up to the 1000 Years “Day of the Lord†COMING, while those living through that “times and epochs†(1 Thessalonians 5:1-2, Acts 1:6-7 = restoration of kingdom to Israel) period will anticipate the ‘end of the age’ of Matthew 24. In other words, Paul’s mystery gathering is all about the 1000 ears “Day of the Lord†BEGINNING, while Christ’s Olivet Discourse (Matthew 24) is all about how the same 1000 Year Period ENDS.

Is ‘our’ Rapture described by the Apostle Paul an ‘end time’ event? Good luck in the Debate,

In Christ Jesus,

Terral

 

[JM]

No.

The Rapture of the Church is not predicted in any work outside of Paul's writings. The end time only begins when the Church is removed, THE CHURCH IS NOT THE SUBJECT OF THE END TIMES, Israel is.

 

[Terral]

Our Mystery Rapture Is When the Day of the Lord Is "At

Hi JM:

Thank you for writing.

JM> No. The Rapture of the Church is not predicted in any work outside of Paul's writings.

Very good; we agree and I must assume you are connecting the passages of 1 Corinthians 15:51-53 to 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17, as being totally separate from anything Christ is describing in Matthew 24.

JM>> The end time only begins when the Church is removed, THE CHURCH IS NOT THE SUBJECT OF THE END TIMES, Israel is.

When you say ‘end time,’ does that equate to the “Day of the Lord?†If so, then what is the duration of that period? How much time do you see from the Rapture of our Church and the ‘end of the age’ events of Matthew 24?

Thank you in advance,

In Christ Jesus,

Terral

 

[JM]

Well, prophecy isn't my strong point...pls keep that in mind.

The rapture: in the air 1 Thess 4:17 compare to Rev 20:4 on earth
Certain Greek words that need to be considered:
a. arpazo  1 Thess 4:17 = seized by force
b. paralambano  John 14:3 = receive alongside

The Battle of Romans 16:20

• Rev 12:7-9 takes place in the heavens not the heavenlies
  Our battle is in the heavenliesâ€â€Ep 6:12 (note also Ep 1:3, 20; 2:6; 3:10, The evil day  Ep 6:13)
  The trump (1Co 15:52) is the trump of battle
  At the end of the tribulation, the battle is not in the heavenlies

What is Christ speaking of in Matt. 24? Who is He speaking to? If the Church is not the subject or prophecy or wasn't revealed until at least Acts 2, how does Matt. 24 relate to the Church?

 

[Terral]

Paul Is Writing About Things "Hidden In God"

Hi JM:

JM >> Well, prophecy isn't my strong point...pls keep that in mind.

My strong point is separating elements of Prophecy from those of The Mystery (Ephesians 3:3) from the Pauline Epistles, which most everyone here likes to toss into the same pot to take out what tastes good to them. Let us agree that everything (and I mean everything) that Paul connected to “the Mystery†remained “hidden in God†(Ephesians 3:3), until revealed through Paul and his letters. Paul uses the term “musterion†(Mystery = #3466) to describe things only made known through his Epistles. Hebrews, Peter, John and James NEVER use the term once in any Epistle bearing their name. They are all describing the fulfillment of Prophecy and things definitely seen by the OT Prophets, which you must separate and ‘rightly divide’ (2 Timothy 2:15) from the things revealed by the Apostle Paul. If you are mixing Paul’s revelations from the ‘visions and revelations of the Lord’ (2 Corinthians 12:1) to mix that with things seen by the OT prophets, then you are joining together what God Himself has put asunder.

JM >> The rapture: in the air 1 Thess 4:17 compare to Rev 20:4 on earth Certain Greek words that need to be considered:
a. arpazo  1 Thess 4:17 = seized by force
b. paralambano  John 14:3 = receive alongside

No sir. Paul is describing an unseen event connected to ‘the MYSTERY’ (1 Corinthians 15:51-53 = 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17) and John is describing a vision of PROPHECY. It is IMPOSSIBLE for one single event to be seen by Prophets (Prophecy) AND be unseen by the Prophets (Mystery). Your connecting of 1 Thessalonians 4 with Revelation 20 is an attempt to break Scripture.

JM >> The Battle of Romans 16:20 Rev 12:7-9 takes place in the heavens not the heavenlies Our battle is in the heavenliesâ€â€Ep 6:12 (note also Ep 1:3, 20; 2:6; 3:10, The evil day  Ep 6:13) The trump (1Co 15:52) is the trump of battle At the end of the tribulation, the battle is not in the heavenlies

Again, you are joining events of this Mystery Time “kept secret for long ages past†(Romans 16:25) with the fulfillment of Prophecy that the Prophets can see.

JM >> What is Christ speaking of in Matt. 24? Who is He speaking to? If the Church is not the subject or prophecy or wasn't revealed until at least Acts 2, how does Matt. 24 relate to the Church?

I wish your assertions here were made in the form of statements using Scripture, instead of using questions. Christ is addressing His Disciples in Matthew 24, but speaking in types and parables, because He does not know the ‘day or hour’ (Matthew 24:36). The time when the ‘day of the Lord’ BEGINS is only known by “the Father alone.†Christ could tell everyone about how the ninth inning of the game ends, but He has no clue about when the “Day of the Lord†BEGINS (1 Thessalonians 5:1-2, 2 Thessalonians 2:2). Those who see all those signs of Matthew 24 will also see Him at the door (Matthew 24:33) at the ‘end of the age’ (Matthew 24:3+) almost 1000 years from today. Matthew 24 does NOT related to the church of the Pauline Epistles at all, because He is describing the 1000 Years Day of the Lord ENDING, while Paul says our mystery church (Ephesians 5:32) is taken when that 1000 Years Day of the Lord BEGINS. If your theology does not recognize the BEGINNING and ENDING of the same 1000 Years Day of the Lord as being 1000 years APART, then obviously you are going to mix those events into one. That is the common error of most everyone here, IMHO.

In Christ Jesus,

Terral

 

[JM]

You've read way, way too much into the tiny little post I made. Shame on you for doing so, and shame on me for making it so easy to do.

Peace,

j

 

[Vic C.]

8-)

 

[Terral]

Paul Is Writing About Things "Hidden In God"

Hi JM:

JM >> You've read way, way too much into the tiny little post I made.

Are you directing another of your little baby posts at me? This one has nobody’s name at the top either. What makes this one any different than the other little one above? Who did you address that one to? Your name appears atop my post to remove all doubt. Please place my name atop any post you are directing in my direction.

JM >> Shame on you for doing so, and shame on me for making it so easy to do.

No sir. Shame on you for posting messages to these threads apart from addressing anyone. Shame on you for trying to combine a mystery (Romans 16:25) ‘battle’ in Romans 16:20 with the Revelation 12:7-9 battle part of prophecy. Someone professing that, “prophecy isn't my strong point†(Thu Jan 19, 2006 11:45 pm) should be reading the content of the threads in this “End Times/Bible Prophecy†Forum and not making these kinds of misleading statements. A quick look down the board shows about two dozen threads started by JM. Shall the shame be upon me for pointing out all of your errors or upon you for making those unsupportable statements in the first place? This side of this debate would like to “quote you >>†trying to defend your statements above, but we both know that would be an exercise in futility. Vic seems to be enjoying your sense of humor (Sat Jan 21, 2006 7:49 pm), but this side is not at all impressed.

Here is the main point that separates my interpretation of end time events from every other member of this Board. Paul connects ‘our’ mystery (1 Corinthians 15:51-53) Rapture (1 Thessalonians 4:17) to when the 1000 Years (2 Peter 3:8) “Day of the Lord†(2 Peter 3:10) “times and epochs’ (1 Thessalonians 5:1-2, Acts 1:6-7) period BEGINS. 2 Thessalonians 2:2. Were these Thessalonians all worried about any wars, famines or earthquakes of Matthew 24? NO. They were concerned about conjecture that this 1000 Years “Day of the Lord†had started without them and that they had missed the START of the ‘times and epochs’ Period. NONE of you have made the connection between the ‘Day of the Lord’ AND the ‘times and epochs’ to realize that this is the SAME PERIOD that the kingdom is RESTORED TO ISRAEL (Acts 1:6-7).

You FAIL to include Christ’s Own Prophecies that Elijah MUST return FIRST and restore “ALL THINGS†(Matthew 17:10-11). You FAIL to recognize that Elijah is the same ‘prophet’ of Acts 3:19-26 who MUST come and restore ‘all things’ (Acts 3:21 = Acts 15:16-18) before Christ can return at the END of the age (Matthew 24:3 +). Have any of you reconciled your interpretations with Joel’s TWO PART prophecy quoted by Peter in Acts 2:17-21 (Joel 2:28-32)? No. His Spirit MUST be poured out on ALL MANKIND first (Acts 2:17-19) BEFORE the ‘great and terrible’ part of the ‘Day of the Lord’ (Acts 2:20-21) can EVEN . . . BEGIN . . . Do you know the differences between the “gospel of the kingdom†(Matthew 24:14) preached at the ‘end of the age’ (Matthew 24:3 +) AND Paul’s “my gospel†(Romans 2:16, Romans 16:25) we preach today? No . . . ( http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopic.php?t=20385 ). If you see only ‘one gospel,’ then why not challenge me on this thread? Now that is a real shame . . .

God’s prophetic Word is the restrainer keeping some things from beginning, until other preceding events have run their course. Most everyone here thinks the “1000 Years†Day of the Lord is of very short duration and you connect our mystery gathering to the end time events of Matthew 24 taking place some 1000 Years in the future. We are living today through the “mystery†time denoted by the Pauline Epistles that the OT Prophets COULD NOT SEE. That simple fact tells you that the RAPTURE (1 Thessalonians 4:17) of 1 Corinthians 15:51-53 is NOT SEEN by any OT Prophets and cannot be part of Matthew 24. Why? Because Daniel sees those ‘end of the age’ (Daniel 12:11-13) very clearly, which is why Christ names Daniel in Matthew 24:15. Daniel sees how the 1000 Years Day of the Lord ENDS, but he has no clue (like Christ = Matthew 24:36) about when that 1000 Years Restoration of the Kingdom to Israel Period BEGINS. This is a very simple concept to understand, if you will simply give the “Day of the Lord†A DURATION of 1000 Years like Peter says NOT to let escape your notice (2 Peter 3:8). And yet, ALL of you are sound asleep and noticing NOTHING. Instead of trying to reconcile your Pre, Mid and Post Tribulation Rapture theories (they are all DEAD WRONG) with every word from God, you follow the commentary of those before you in true ‘monkey see, monkey do’ fashion.

Suppose for about two seconds that the ‘times and epochs’ (Acts 1:6-7) period of the “Day of the Lord†(1 Thessalonians 5:1-2) does indeed have a duration of 1000 Years, just for the sake of argument. Suppose that Paul is indeed describing our ‘mystery’ (1 Corinthians 15:51-53) gathering that STARTS that 1000 Years Period. Then suppose that Christ is indeed describing the ‘end of the age’ taking place at the END of the same 1000 Years Period. How many years does that place between our mystery gathering (1 Thessalonians 4:17) AND Christ’s prophetic return in Matthew 24:30-31?? Answer: The same 1000 Years that exist within the ‘day of the Lord’ from the BEGINNING (2 Thessalonians 2:2) to the very END of the age (Matthew 24:3-31). This is the ONLY right answer to the questions on this topic. The only shame to be passed around is upon those continuing to stand in the stench of their own unbelief, because the solution has been presented on this thread. If you guys wish to try and pasyour shame and smiley faces onto others and ignore everything presented, then that is your option. Maybe you are just afraid to stand apart from the Pre, Mid and Post Tribulation MYTHOLOGISTS, because they will likely try to pass their shame onto you.

If anyone here has an argument to make against my “1000 Years BEFORE The Great Tribulation†interpretation, then please “quote me >>†and show my shame to everyone. I will endeavor to return shortly with a thoughtful reply.

In Christ,

Terral

 

[JM]

As a person with Native blood in my vains, I'd like to welcome you to the tribe and have selected a new Native name for you: Broken Record! Or if you'd like: Conclusion Jumper!

 

[Terral]

Our Mystery Rapture Is When the Day of the Lord Is "At

Hi JM:

Thank you very much for writing.

JM >> As a person with Native blood in my vains, I'd like to welcome you to the tribe and have selected a new Native name for you: Broken Record! Or if you'd like: Conclusion Jumper!

I also have native blood in my veins (Creek Indians from central Florida). Does this means you found nothing in my post above to “quote >>†and show errors? Or am I jumping to that conclusion . . . again? From those five very long paragraphs (Sun Jan 22, 2006 9:57 pm), you should be able to find at least one point where we disagree. Since I place our mystery gathering (1 Thessalonians 4:17) to 1000 Year BEFORE the Great Tribulation of Matthew 24:21, then most everyone here should find disagreement with my interpretation. Where have I wrongly divided Scripture or taken one thing out of context? Should this side of the discussion simply assume his views are wrong apart from sufficient evidence? Where is your case??

Broken record my eye . . . When do you get around to “quoting >>†me and pointing out all of these errors??? Well, at least you can attach names to people. Maybe that and a quarter will buy me something . . .

Thanks again for writing,

In Christ Jesus,

Terral