Our Sin & the Omnipresence of God

[Mike]

I've brought this up before, and I'm bringing it up here again, because I believe this is very important and weighty.

Our Bible study group is going through a series called "The Truth Project" which was a undertaken by Focus on the Family. In my estimation, it is the most insightful, thought provoking studies I've ever done. In fact, I'm going through it for the 4th time in part because it always gives me something more to consider, and because there are people in my current group who haven't been through it. I would highly endorse it for everyone. Here's the website: thetruthproject.org

Our sin, and the Omnipresence of God. This is one of the things the facilitator of the series suggests.

For those of us who believe in the omnipresent Nature of God, there is a certain level of disconnect between what we believe of it and what we truly believe of it. If we were every bit as certain that God was in our midst at all times, that He is present and aware of everything we think, say, and do, we would not do some of the things we do.

Sadly, people admit the times when they are most easily lured into sin is when they are alone in their homes. For those living with their parents, their parents are gone. For those married with a family, the spouse and children are out. IF we believe in this Nature of God, we will believe they are never truly alone. It will be as if their parents or spouse is standing right behind them when they do it (but much more critical).

Social taboos (sadly) are sometimes more of a deterrent than the belief that God is in our midst. We're more afraid of how other people would respond than we are of what God is aware of us doing. I'm a part of a 5-man accountability group. Why do I need them? Why should I need them? Isn't my accountability to God more thorough than to my brothers in Christ?

I agree with this consideration, that if we TRULY believed what we profess, we would not fall prey to the temptations we do. Alone in our cars, homes, or when we are around people who don't hold our same Christian morals, we would not say and do some of the things we do.

This is something we need to believe with every fiber of our being; that the Lord is always right there with us. There is a disconnect preventing this from truly settling 100% in our hearts.

What do you think?

 

[Eventide]

Christ IN you..

IMO This is one of the most interesting topics to the Christian because of the 'reality' of it etc.. it's where the proverbial rubber meets the road.

A brother once told me that the road for the Christian is SALVATION, SEPARATION, SERVICE.. and it's a lifelong journey in so many ways.

What I think is a difficult thing for many Christians to understand is that there's a brutal war going on and it's as Paul says.. spiritual wickedness in high places.. from the RULERS of the darkness of this world.. and the FLESH and the SPIRIT are ALWAYS going to be CONTRARY to one another.. our old man is not going to get any better and Christ IN us can't become any better.. He is always perfect. The whole armour of God is vital equipment in this battle.

Another thing that I think might elude people is that for the Christian, it's not that God is all around us.. He is IN US, living within this frail jar of clay.. and once again, our old Adamic nature is there too.. we know we're to reckon him dead although any Christian knows that he gets the best of us sometime.

When a person is born again, Christ is birthed in us.. and it's as if the Father gets to see His only begotten Son grow up in each and every one of us.. because that's literally what is happening within the Christian.. the FLESH and the SPIRIT of Christ living within the same lump of clay..

It's a limitless and glorious topic to say the least.. and to Christ alone be the glory.

 

[childeye]

I find this topic interesting. Even as a child I believed God saw everything, how could He not? Such was my perception of God. Still I sinned, or at least broke the letter of the law. This subject is very much about what is present in the subconscience of a person, and therefore what we truly believe is obscured by what we are not truly aware of in ourselves. Hence as God reveals and convicts He also illuminates. Some people focus on their own ability to decline to submit, regarding it as their freewill, when in fact only in submitting to the Truth is one set free. Oh God, may He cure our pride.

 

[Davies]

I think when we begin to stray, and tempted to sin, we forget how much God loves us. It's impossible to stay focused on God's presence all the time because daily living requires our attention. This should inform us of the importance of returning to God in prayer, Bible study, and be reminded of how much God loves us.

Have you ever heard of Nicholas Herman, otherwise known as Brother Lawrence. I've read the account of him several times and I'm always encouraged by his example. Brother Lawrence tried to do everything for the love of God. When he realized he failed, he would fall upon God's grace, refocus, and remember God's love for him. I believe this was his motivation for serving God as he did. I think you might find the letters encouraging also.

- Davies

"Brother Lawrence told me he had always been governed by love without selfish views. Since he resolved to make the love of God the end of all his actions, he had found reasons to be well satisfied with his method. He was pleased when he could take up a straw from the ground for the love of God, seeking Him only, and nothing else, not even His gifts." - The Practice Of The Presence Of God
Brother Lawrence's Conversations and Letters
Light Heart Edition
http://www.practicegodspresence.com/brotherlawrence/practicegodspresence09.html

 

[smaller]

I've brought this up before, and I'm bringing it up here again, because I believe this is very important and weighty.

Our Bible study group is going through a series called "The Truth Project" which was a undertaken by Focus on the Family. In my estimation, it is the most insightful, thought provoking studies I've ever done. In fact, I'm going through it for the 4th time in part because it always gives me something more to consider, and because there are people in my current group who haven't been through it. I would highly endorse it for everyone. Here's the website: thetruthproject.org

Our sin, and the Omnipresence of God. This is one of the things the facilitator of the series suggests.

For those of us who believe in the omnipresent Nature of God, there is a certain level of disconnect between what we believe of it and what we truly believe of it. If we were every bit as certain that God was in our midst at all times, that He is present and aware of everything we think, say, and do, we would not do some of the things we do.

Sadly, people admit the times when they are most easily lured into sin is when they are alone in their homes. For those living with their parents, their parents are gone. For those married with a family, the spouse and children are out. IF we believe in this Nature of God, we will believe they are never truly alone. It will be as if their parents or spouse is standing right behind them when they do it (but much more critical).

Social taboos (sadly) are sometimes more of a deterrent than the belief that God is in our midst. We're more afraid of how other people would respond than we are of what God is aware of us doing. I'm a part of a 5-man accountability group. Why do I need them? Why should I need them? Isn't my accountability to God more thorough than to my brothers in Christ?

I agree with this consideration, that if we TRULY believed what we profess, we would not fall prey to the temptations we do. Alone in our cars, homes, or when we are around people who don't hold our same Christian morals, we would not say and do some of the things we do.

This is something we need to believe with every fiber of our being; that the Lord is always right there with us. There is a disconnect preventing this from truly settling 100% in our hearts.

What do you think?

I've made a couple of these observations prior, holding to the Omnipresence of God, that sin then assuredly exists within His Omnipresence. Some say that God can not be in the presence of sin, but Omnipresence denies that fact. Sin is in the presence of Omnipresence.

You bring up an excellent point about the lures of temptation, which many such as myself believe we do factually have as that presence in our minds and hearts and it becomes apparent to us if we recognize that temptation or sin thought as being from the tempter and not of ourselves. It is much easier to repel such misleading thoughts when we come to the fact that the thought is both in us and NOT of us as believers. Many again believe that 'because' we are believers we have no presence of the tempter within our hearts and minds. This to me can not be.

What I would say as a fact to you as a believer, is that we should 'expect' temptation as a test of our faith and at least recognize that the tempter is within our minds and hearts to 'do so' and more importantly, to realize it is 'not us.'

IF that division is not made, then we are led to believe it is only us and our false desires, and are then even more easily led deeper into that error of the tempter.

And finally, we should not deceive ourselves into thinking that the tempter, that presence, is EVER LEGAL or OBEDIENT or FAITHFUL or GRACED or given MERCY or TRUTH from God in Christ. None of that applies to the TEMPTER within our hearts. All of those GOOD and PERFECT matters eternal are only for us as His children, but NOT for the tempter and his presence.

I hope you appreciate the view and HAVE HIS VICTORY over that tempter at ALL TIMES.

In Division there is VICTORY. In denial that it happens is BLINDNESS and error.

Give no quarter, not even a toehold to the spotter of the flesh.

s

 

[Mike]

I'm not denying that amidst all the warfare going on around us in the spiritual realm is the struggle for the soul of each person. I do believe, as I write this, there are angels and demons at hand. Evil never rests; not yet, anyway. I also believe that a Christian has a decision to make when evil attempts to weaken our resistance. Even in a weakened state, though, we still have something Greater than anything, any lie that can be cast upon us.

We have the Truth. We have God's Love for us. God's limitless Love that overcomes any ambition evil has designed for us is something that we need to surrender to. But I'm breaking this down to a very practical scenario. Take a sin, any sin - gossip, lying, lust, hate - that props itself up.

I really find it hard to believe we would do some of the things we do, even though we are tempted to do them if (and that's a big IF) We agree or acknowledge that God is fully with us, but this is very different from taking it to its final point. God Created each of us. He Loves us. He sent His Son to die for us. If we truly, truly believed that he was there standing right behind us - I mean truly grasped the magnitude of this, I find it hard to believe we would sin straight up, right in front of the Creator of the Universe. There are a lot of things we won't do in front of others for fear of being ridiculed or chastised. If we were doing what we were doing, and our wife came home, we would no doubt stop as she was coming inside the house. That's our response when their is a chance we'll be rebuked.

How much less would we act on those temptations if we were certain, absolutely convinced what many passively believe, that God is with us?

 

[smaller]

I'm not denying that amidst all the warfare going on around us in the spiritual realm is the struggle for the soul of each person. I do believe, as I write this, there are angels and demons at hand. Evil never rests; not yet, anyway. I also believe that a Christian has a decision to make when evil attempts to weaken our resistance. Even in a weakened state, though, we still have something Greater than anything, any lie that can be cast upon us.

We have the Truth. We have God's Love for us. God's limitless Love that overcomes any ambition evil has designed for us is something that we need to surrender to. But I'm breaking this down to a very practical scenario. Take a sin, any sin - gossip, lying, lust, hate - that props itself up.

I really find it hard to believe we would do some of the things we do, even though we are tempted to do them if (and that's a big IF) We agree or acknowledge that God is fully with us, but this is very different from taking it to its final point. God Created each of us. He Loves us. He sent His Son to die for us. If we truly, truly believed that he was there standing right behind us - I mean truly grasped the magnitude of this, I find it hard to believe we would sin straight up, right in front of the Creator of the Universe. There are a lot of things we won't do in front of others for fear of being ridiculed or chastised. If we were doing what we were doing, and our wife came home, we would no doubt stop as she was coming inside the house. That's our response when their is a chance we'll be rebuked.

How much less would we act on those temptations if we were certain, absolutely convinced what many passively believe, that God is with us?

The notion that the tempter stops tempting because of Omnipresence will not hold up. Believers are guaranteed to be tempted. That's all there is to it. I had this same conversation where Hissheep was saying that God tells us to stop sinning. And that is certainly an ongoing and continual effort. But even if a person were to be PERFECT in word and deed, that does not mean they lost temptation or THE TEMPTER operating in their minds. That simply does not happen. It's just not true.

So the believers factual condition is that there is them, and there is the tempter.

God certainly loves us regardless of the presence of the tempter.

And God does NOT love the tempter. The notion that we 'eradicate' the worker of temptation or that those thoughts are not sins just doesn't hold water. God does not look upon believers as JUST US no matter how rosy and shiny we desire to obey and to paint ourselves. The fact is the tempter is with us, tempting.

There is us and there is that working. No amount of religious phariseeism is going to dodge the fact of the tempters presence.

Few believers can stand to see themselves 'factually' in this way. They only see themselves trying trying trying to be good, and to please God. But to tell the truth about the tempter being with them is always the last thing on their minds. The last thing they see or come to grips with. Believers tend to flail around this fact and to ever seek to make THEIR TEMPTER good and to behave and to excuse that working in themselves.

The next time you are at your mens prayer group, just look at all those men starting with yourself, and see that it is NOT only them. The tempter works in ALL believers. It is a TRUTH that you have to bring before God if you expect to receive from Him.

There is no hiding of this fact. God knows it. Why don't you? You are not going to make the tempter sinless no matter what you do. To cover it up is pointless. God isn't fooled one little bit. God knows it's you and the tempter. Why would you think that the tempter is anything but what the tempter is? Does behavior eliminate this fact? No. Bad behavior is just an open show of the fact of the internal matter of the tempters presence. Slaveship is certainly progressive from sin thought to sin word to sin deed. But to say that sin thought is no sin or that it is not of the tempter is wrong. A person who avoids this fact is just being lied to within their own minds. The tempter could care less.

Paul was very frank, honest and open about this subject when he stated that when he would do good, EVIL was present with him. He didn't try to gloss that fact over for himself or deny it. He put it right out there in the open for us to observe in Romans 7:21. Yes, an Apostle stating that EVIL was present with him. Who was that EVIL? Why, the EVIL ONE, the DEVIL, the TEMPTER.

It ain't just you. It ain't just me. That isn't a truthful fact.

Why would you expect that the tempter is going to be any different than what the tempter is?

God can deal with that working in a believer even if that tempter never shows one sin on the outside of the cup. He sees every thought and not ALL of them are YOURS.

Believers who can't pinpoint this matter will always be confused. Why? Because they are just not getting an accurate picture of what they really consist of.

s

 

[Mike]

Smaller,

I don't think I ever said we are no longer tempted at any point. Indeed, while in the flesh, we are subject to the lure of evil. That never stops, and anyone who believes it does is making a grave mistake. I do see what appears to be a difference in our understandings of Satan. I don't believe Satan even knows I exist. I'm one of billions of God's Creations, and I don't see him as having the same omniscience that God has. I do firmly believe some of his demons are very well aware of me and are doing Satan's work. Putting Satan in all places and people at all times is giving him a Godly nature that he doesn't have.

But, please, let's not focus on this aspect. Even when tempted, I believe we can choose not to give in when we draw on His Strength. When we consciously sin, I will affirm what I've said a few times. We lose sight of the very real, very true fact that God is in our midst, knowing intimately what we are going about. Let's not change this into a thread that focuses on the nature of Satan.

 

[smaller]

Smaller,

I don't think I ever said we are no longer tempted at any point. Indeed, while in the flesh, we are subject to the lure of evil. That never stops, and anyone who believes it does is making a grave mistake. I do see what appears to be a difference in our understandings of Satan. I don't believe Satan even knows I exist.

Oh really? The tempter is right there in mind and doesn't know you exist? Not even remotely possible. Sorry.

I'm one of billions of God's Creations, and I don't see him as having the same omniscience that God has.

Never said it was the same type of Omniscience. Satan also has minions. They are all of the same entity class. They are anti-Christ spirits. They can not be seen. We certainly are advised by Jesus' Words 'how' they work. Where The Word is sown Satan enters the heart. None of that is 'observable.' It is a position that is to be believed and understood because Jesus said so.

I do firmly believe some of his demons are very well aware of me and are doing Satan's work. Putting Satan in all places and people at all times is giving him a Godly nature that he doesn't have.

Mike, you can discount the fact and try to brush it away. You have no idea the amount of 'anti-Christ' spirits that exist. Since all have sin and sin is of the devil the math is quite clear. Everyone has the same situation when it comes to sin and the involvement of the tempter 'class' of entities.

But, please, let's not focus on this aspect.

It would seem to be of fair importance. If you are not just 'you alone' but you plus tempter why would you even think that is of no importance?

Part of why I brought this 'fact' forward is to point out that whether you are alone but within Omniscience meaning God certainly sees what you do even in thought form, why would that make any difference to the tempter? The answer is, it doesn't. The tempter spoke from the lips of Peter right to Jesus' face.

The tempter doesn't care about Omniscience nor is that going to stop the tempter from tempting.

Even when tempted, I believe we can choose not to give in when we draw on His Strength.

Recognizing this fact: If the tempter inserts SIN THOUGHT even that thought is a sin of the tempter in that persons MIND. You are welcome to ignore that fact and say it's only a sin if you dwell on it or act on it, but that is not the case. It's a sin of the tempter within a person the instant the thought of sin enters the mind.

When we consciously sin, I will affirm what I've said a few times. We lose sight of the very real, very true fact that God is in our midst, knowing intimately what we are going about. Let's not change this into a thread that focuses on the nature of Satan.

The fact that God sees sin thought of temptation via the tempter remains a fact. Omniscience does not stop that from transpiring.

You can put any focus desired on the matter. The fact of this working remains a fact for everyone. The fact will not diminish because of what one thinks about Omniscience when they are alone.

s

 

[Sparkey]

Greetings, Mike!

What I hear you saying reminds me of something that Peter spoke about that I call the "recipe for blindness" in 2Peter, chapter 1.

It's not really a recipe but that's the way I read it, almost like we are to take 2 cups of diligence and mix in our faith, then with virtue and knowledge we stir in temperance and patience -- to this we add Godliness and brotherly kindness, topping it off with charity (love).

(2Pe 1:5-10 KJV) - "And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity. For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins. Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:"

It might not directly relate to what you're speaking about regarding our belief in the Omnipresence of God, that He is right here with us, but I think the 'recipe' gives more tangible ways to see that fact.