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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Pain & Suffering - Trials Of Life - Why?
- Thread starter iLOVE
- Start date
iLOVE
Member
- Oct 4, 2012
- 4,708
- 944
- Thread starter
- #3
Pain and suffering draws you to God and it makes you consider eternity. We also discover during these times God awesome power to comfort us. It also equips you to help others with pain and suffering, hardships, and heartaches. We should pray and ask God, "Lord what are you saying to me in this?" "What do you want to change in my life?" "What do you want to do in me and through me that through this pain and through this suffering is part of the preparation?" Even though we may not understand why, trust God and believe all things lead to good that you can glorify God (Romans 8:28 KJV).
Jesus was honest. He told us the truth. He said in John 16:33 HCSB, "you will have suffering in this world." He did not say you might, He said it is going to happen. The bible says, "If you suffer, we shall also reign with Him," 2 Timothy 2:12 KJB. But we still might ask why? The scripture says, "Now we see things imperfectly, like puzzling reflections in a mirror, but then we will see everything with perfect clarity. All that I know now is partial and incomplete, but then I will know everything completely, just as God now knows me completely. 1 Corinthians 13:12 NLT. So when you ask about specific individual events and want to know why this particular thing happened, we won't get the full answer in this world. Someday we'll see with clarity, but for now things are foggy.
What is desperately needed during these times is the very real comforting presence of Lord Jesus Christ in our lives.
16 Therefore we do not lose heart. Though outwardly we are wasting away, yet inwardly we are being renewed day by day. 17 For our light and momentary troubles are achieving for us an eternal glory that far outweighs them all. 18 So we fix our eyes not on what is seen, but on what is unseen, since what is seen is temporary, but what is unseen is eternal. 2 Corinthians 4:16-18 NIV
Jesus was honest. He told us the truth. He said in John 16:33 HCSB, "you will have suffering in this world." He did not say you might, He said it is going to happen. The bible says, "If you suffer, we shall also reign with Him," 2 Timothy 2:12 KJB. But we still might ask why? The scripture says, "Now we see things imperfectly, like puzzling reflections in a mirror, but then we will see everything with perfect clarity. All that I know now is partial and incomplete, but then I will know everything completely, just as God now knows me completely. 1 Corinthians 13:12 NLT. So when you ask about specific individual events and want to know why this particular thing happened, we won't get the full answer in this world. Someday we'll see with clarity, but for now things are foggy.
What is desperately needed during these times is the very real comforting presence of Lord Jesus Christ in our lives.
16 Therefore we do not lose heart. Though outwardly we are wasting away, yet inwardly we are being renewed day by day. 17 For our light and momentary troubles are achieving for us an eternal glory that far outweighs them all. 18 So we fix our eyes not on what is seen, but on what is unseen, since what is seen is temporary, but what is unseen is eternal. 2 Corinthians 4:16-18 NIV
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iLOVE
Member
- Oct 4, 2012
- 4,708
- 944
- Thread starter
- #4
To understand the trials of life and seeing things from God’s view point by responding according to scriptural principles we must try and understand the ways of God. If you don’t understand the ways of God you blame people instead of responding by Godly wisdom (see James 1:1-12 NIV). The purpose of our trials is to test our faith (1 Peter 1:6-7 NIV). The trials that we face is to prove that your faith is genuine. Untested faith is unreliable. These things test our faith and test our devotion to Christ. God wants to see what scale of obedience are we. We grow doing this time and we develop doing this time. We must trust God! If we don’t have trials in our lives we will take God for granted. Many people want to help you doing these times, but don’t understand what God is doing for you. God is preparing us for something greater. The purpose of our trials is to produce a Christ like spirit in us 2 Corinthians 1: 3-4 NIV.
How should we respond? We should respond by believing…
1. God is in control of this time and the intensity of my trial.
2. God has a specific purpose for my trial (whether He sends it or allows it).
3. This trial is designed to meet a specific need.
4. This trial will be good for me if I respond in faith.
5. This trial can strengthen my faith.
6. This trial is an opportunity to demonstrate perseverance.
7. This trial will develop Christ likeness in me.
8. This trial will help me measure my spiritual maturity. (God is at work in your life)
9. God will walk us through our trial(s)
10. By God’s grace and power, I will overcome this trial.
The most important thing in our lives is our personal relationship with Lord Jesus Christ. Blessed are those who mourn, for they will be comforted (Matthew 5:4 NIV).
Let your character {or} moral disposition be free from love of money [including greed, avarice, lust, and craving for earthly possessions] and be satisfied with your present [circumstances and with what you have]; for He [God] Himself has said, I will not in any way fail you {nor} give you up {nor} leave you without support. [I will] not, [I will] not, [I will] not in any degree leave you helpless {nor} forsake {nor} let [you] down (relax My hold on you)! [Assuredly not!]
So we take comfort {and} are encouraged {and} confidently {and} boldly say, The Lord is my Helper; I will not be seized with alarm [I will not fear or dread or be terrified]. What can man do to me? Hebrews 13:5-6 AMP
How should we respond? We should respond by believing…
1. God is in control of this time and the intensity of my trial.
2. God has a specific purpose for my trial (whether He sends it or allows it).
3. This trial is designed to meet a specific need.
4. This trial will be good for me if I respond in faith.
5. This trial can strengthen my faith.
6. This trial is an opportunity to demonstrate perseverance.
7. This trial will develop Christ likeness in me.
8. This trial will help me measure my spiritual maturity. (God is at work in your life)
9. God will walk us through our trial(s)
10. By God’s grace and power, I will overcome this trial.
The most important thing in our lives is our personal relationship with Lord Jesus Christ. Blessed are those who mourn, for they will be comforted (Matthew 5:4 NIV).
Let your character {or} moral disposition be free from love of money [including greed, avarice, lust, and craving for earthly possessions] and be satisfied with your present [circumstances and with what you have]; for He [God] Himself has said, I will not in any way fail you {nor} give you up {nor} leave you without support. [I will] not, [I will] not, [I will] not in any degree leave you helpless {nor} forsake {nor} let [you] down (relax My hold on you)! [Assuredly not!]
So we take comfort {and} are encouraged {and} confidently {and} boldly say, The Lord is my Helper; I will not be seized with alarm [I will not fear or dread or be terrified]. What can man do to me? Hebrews 13:5-6 AMP
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Effects of trials/tribulations: 1. We are awakened/alert,made to think. 2. It reveals our smallness,weakness,frailty. 3. We are humbled. 4. We see our sinfulness,lack of knowledge/understanding. 5. It encourages prayer (a return to God). 6. Brings patience. 7. Brings a deeper understanding of the character of God. 8. Gives more time with God,and less time to the world. 9. See a constant need for God's grace,and not to be high-minded. 10. You are a better person at the end of trials than at the beginning. Also,2 Corinthians 1:4 - "Christ,who comforts us in all our tribulations,that we may be able to comfort them which are in any trouble,by the comfort that we ourselves are comforted by God.For as the sufferings of Christ abound in us,so our comfort/encouragement abounds by Christ".
Here is a brief look at the doctrine of suffering.
DOCTRINE OF SUFFERING
I. Preliminary considerations.
A. This doctrine will focus on the believer and the divine viewpoint respecting his sufferings.
B. The Christian faces the same sufferings or tests that are common to all men, 1Cor.10:13.
C. The difference is that the positive believer’s sufferings and tests all work together for his good, Rom.8:28.
D. While in the midst of them, the believer can have inner peace, Jn.16:33, and happiness, Jam.1:2.
E. Some of the categories of suffering include:
1. Persecution.
2. Living grace testing.
3. Health tests.
4. Various dangers.
5. Temptation.
F. See Doctrine of Testing.
II. Suffering cannot separate us from God’s plan, Rom.8:35-39. No common human problem (CHP) can remove us from God’s plan, including death.
III. The sufferings of Jesus Christ, Isa.53:3,4:
A. Were the subject of prophecy, Act.3:18; 17:2,3; cp. Mt.16:21; Lk.24:26,46.
B. Include His unique sufferings as related to bearing sins, Heb.2:9,10; 13:12.
C. Include His resistance to all manner of temptation, Heb.2:18; 4:15.
D. Include such things as:
1. Rejection by His own people, Isa.53:3; cp. Jn.1:11.
2. Could not tap into His deity for His own benefit, Phil.2:5-8.
3. Betrayal by a close associate, Ps.41:9; cp. Mt.10:4.
4. Forsaken by His disciples, Zech.13:7; cp. Mk.14:50.
5. Accused by false witnesses, Ps.35:11; cp. Mt.26:5961.
6. Hit and spit upon, Isa.50:6; cp. Mt.26:67; Lk.22:63.
7. Mocked, Ps.22:7,8; cp. Mt.27:31.
8. Scourged, Mt.27:26.
9. Hands and feet pierced, Ps.22:16; cp. Lk.23:33; Jn.20:25.
10. Crucified with thieves, Isa.53:12; cp. Mt.27:38.
11. Rejected by His own family, Jn.7:5.
12. Hated for no reason, Ps.69:4; cp. Jn.15:25.
13. Friends stood at a distance, Ps.38:11; cp. Lk.23:49.
14. People shaking their heads, Ps.109:25; cp. Mt.27:39.
15. Garments removed and divided, Ps.22:18; cp. Jn.19:23,24.
16. Stared at, Ps.22:17; cp. Lk.23:35.
17. Suffered thirst, for which gall and vinegar were offered Him, Ps.69:21; cp. Mt.27:34; cp. Jn.19:28.
E. Christ is our supreme example under suffering, 1Pet.2:21,23.
IV. Suffering is a regular part of the Christian’s experience in the cosmos, Jn.16:33 “In the world you have tribulation, but take courage; I have overcome the world.”
A. Jesus taught His disciples to expect it, Jn.15:17-20.
B. Paul briefed new converts on the eventuality of it, Act.14:22 “strengthening the souls of the disciples, encouraging them to continue in the faith and saying, ‘Through many tribulations we must enter the kingdom of God.’”
C. There is both a variety and an abundance of CHPs for the believer in time (referred to as Phase 2 of the plan of God), Ps.34:19; 2Cor.1:5; 1Pet.1:6.
D. The Christian way of life also has various blessings that parallel our CHPs, Mk.10:28-31.
E. We will be persecuted for the truth, 1Thess.1:6; 2Tim.3:12.
V. All suffering and testing are accompanied by comfort and encouragement from the Lord, 2Cor.1:3-7.
A. The more you face sufferings that are undeserved, the more you can expect to be encouraged by God, 2Cor.1:3.
B. But you must be in fellowship and looking for the many forms in which this comfort comes to you.
C. Obviously complete deliverance from the test brings comfort, but God also comforts you while under the test itself, 2Cor.1:8-11; 1Thess.3:6-8.
VI. Undeserved suffering is the category of suffering that brings blessing to the believer.
A. 1Peter is the epistle of undeserved suffering as seen in the expressions:
1. Doing right, 1Pet.2:15,20; 3:6,17.
2. Suffering unjustly, 1Pet.2:19.
3. Prove zealous for what is good, 1Pet.3:13.
4. Suffer for the sake of righteousness, 1Pet.3:14.
5. Share the sufferings of Christ, 1Pet.4:13.
6. Suffer as a Christian, 1Pet.4:16.
7. Suffer according to the will of God, 1Pet.4:19.
B. The epistle deals with their persecutions by those from the outside (mainly verbal slander).
C. Such suffering finds favor with God, 1Pet.2:19,20.
D. The believer is not to fear such attacks, 1Pet.3:14,15.
E. He is not to be ashamed, 1Pet.4:16.
F. Deserved suffering brings no blessing, just cursing and divine discipline, 1Pet.2:20; 3:17; cp. 4:15.
G. Believers are not to be surprised when negative volition persecutes and maligns them, 1Pet.4:12; 1Jn.3:13.
VII. The mental attitude toward suffering that the adjusted believer is to possess.
A. Inner peace, Jn.16:33; Phil.4:6,7.
B. Inner happiness, 2Cor.7:4; Jam.1:2; 1Pet.4:13.
C. Must be willing to do so, Rom.12:12; Phil.1:29; 2Tim.2:3,9.
VIII. Suffering produces the virtue of patience, Rom.5:3,4; Jam.1:2-4.
A. Suffering and surpassing grace blessing in eternity (SG3).
B. Suffering and the tests of the Christian way of life which we pass accumulate Phase 3 reward, 1Pet.1:37; Jam.1:12.
C. Those who remain positive under the various testing and sufferings associated with the body of death reap surpassing grace reward in Phase 3 (SG3), 2Cor.4:17,18.
D. Our present sufferings pale when compared to our Phase 3 glory, Rom.8:18; 2Cor.4:17; 1Pet.5:10.
E. To the extent you are willing to acclimate to your allotted CHPs, you will inherit Phase 3 reward, 1Pet.4:13; cp. Rom.8:17.
IX. Some things to keep in mind.
A. The Lord knows your sufferings and will deliver you from them all, Ex.3:7; Ps.9:12; 35:10.
B. God will not put upon you tests you are not ready to handle, 1Cor.10:13.
C. He will supply you with the grace to handle any test, Prov.3:34.
D. Failure to handle persecution and testing explains why some peel off from doctrine, Mt.13:20,21.
E. You will not face unique tests, 1Pet.5:9; cp, 1Thess.2:14; 2Cor.1:7.
F. Suffering renders you worthy of God’s kingdom, 2Thess.1:5.
G. Your sufferings help complete the measure of suffering of the corporate body of Christ necessary before the Church’s glorification, Col.1:24.
H. Avoid fear and soul fainting, Rom.8:15-17; Heb.10:32ff.
DOCTRINE OF SUFFERING
I. Preliminary considerations.
A. This doctrine will focus on the believer and the divine viewpoint respecting his sufferings.
B. The Christian faces the same sufferings or tests that are common to all men, 1Cor.10:13.
C. The difference is that the positive believer’s sufferings and tests all work together for his good, Rom.8:28.
D. While in the midst of them, the believer can have inner peace, Jn.16:33, and happiness, Jam.1:2.
E. Some of the categories of suffering include:
1. Persecution.
2. Living grace testing.
3. Health tests.
4. Various dangers.
5. Temptation.
F. See Doctrine of Testing.
II. Suffering cannot separate us from God’s plan, Rom.8:35-39. No common human problem (CHP) can remove us from God’s plan, including death.
III. The sufferings of Jesus Christ, Isa.53:3,4:
A. Were the subject of prophecy, Act.3:18; 17:2,3; cp. Mt.16:21; Lk.24:26,46.
B. Include His unique sufferings as related to bearing sins, Heb.2:9,10; 13:12.
C. Include His resistance to all manner of temptation, Heb.2:18; 4:15.
D. Include such things as:
1. Rejection by His own people, Isa.53:3; cp. Jn.1:11.
2. Could not tap into His deity for His own benefit, Phil.2:5-8.
3. Betrayal by a close associate, Ps.41:9; cp. Mt.10:4.
4. Forsaken by His disciples, Zech.13:7; cp. Mk.14:50.
5. Accused by false witnesses, Ps.35:11; cp. Mt.26:5961.
6. Hit and spit upon, Isa.50:6; cp. Mt.26:67; Lk.22:63.
7. Mocked, Ps.22:7,8; cp. Mt.27:31.
8. Scourged, Mt.27:26.
9. Hands and feet pierced, Ps.22:16; cp. Lk.23:33; Jn.20:25.
10. Crucified with thieves, Isa.53:12; cp. Mt.27:38.
11. Rejected by His own family, Jn.7:5.
12. Hated for no reason, Ps.69:4; cp. Jn.15:25.
13. Friends stood at a distance, Ps.38:11; cp. Lk.23:49.
14. People shaking their heads, Ps.109:25; cp. Mt.27:39.
15. Garments removed and divided, Ps.22:18; cp. Jn.19:23,24.
16. Stared at, Ps.22:17; cp. Lk.23:35.
17. Suffered thirst, for which gall and vinegar were offered Him, Ps.69:21; cp. Mt.27:34; cp. Jn.19:28.
E. Christ is our supreme example under suffering, 1Pet.2:21,23.
IV. Suffering is a regular part of the Christian’s experience in the cosmos, Jn.16:33 “In the world you have tribulation, but take courage; I have overcome the world.”
A. Jesus taught His disciples to expect it, Jn.15:17-20.
B. Paul briefed new converts on the eventuality of it, Act.14:22 “strengthening the souls of the disciples, encouraging them to continue in the faith and saying, ‘Through many tribulations we must enter the kingdom of God.’”
C. There is both a variety and an abundance of CHPs for the believer in time (referred to as Phase 2 of the plan of God), Ps.34:19; 2Cor.1:5; 1Pet.1:6.
D. The Christian way of life also has various blessings that parallel our CHPs, Mk.10:28-31.
E. We will be persecuted for the truth, 1Thess.1:6; 2Tim.3:12.
V. All suffering and testing are accompanied by comfort and encouragement from the Lord, 2Cor.1:3-7.
A. The more you face sufferings that are undeserved, the more you can expect to be encouraged by God, 2Cor.1:3.
B. But you must be in fellowship and looking for the many forms in which this comfort comes to you.
C. Obviously complete deliverance from the test brings comfort, but God also comforts you while under the test itself, 2Cor.1:8-11; 1Thess.3:6-8.
VI. Undeserved suffering is the category of suffering that brings blessing to the believer.
A. 1Peter is the epistle of undeserved suffering as seen in the expressions:
1. Doing right, 1Pet.2:15,20; 3:6,17.
2. Suffering unjustly, 1Pet.2:19.
3. Prove zealous for what is good, 1Pet.3:13.
4. Suffer for the sake of righteousness, 1Pet.3:14.
5. Share the sufferings of Christ, 1Pet.4:13.
6. Suffer as a Christian, 1Pet.4:16.
7. Suffer according to the will of God, 1Pet.4:19.
B. The epistle deals with their persecutions by those from the outside (mainly verbal slander).
C. Such suffering finds favor with God, 1Pet.2:19,20.
D. The believer is not to fear such attacks, 1Pet.3:14,15.
E. He is not to be ashamed, 1Pet.4:16.
F. Deserved suffering brings no blessing, just cursing and divine discipline, 1Pet.2:20; 3:17; cp. 4:15.
G. Believers are not to be surprised when negative volition persecutes and maligns them, 1Pet.4:12; 1Jn.3:13.
VII. The mental attitude toward suffering that the adjusted believer is to possess.
A. Inner peace, Jn.16:33; Phil.4:6,7.
B. Inner happiness, 2Cor.7:4; Jam.1:2; 1Pet.4:13.
C. Must be willing to do so, Rom.12:12; Phil.1:29; 2Tim.2:3,9.
VIII. Suffering produces the virtue of patience, Rom.5:3,4; Jam.1:2-4.
A. Suffering and surpassing grace blessing in eternity (SG3).
B. Suffering and the tests of the Christian way of life which we pass accumulate Phase 3 reward, 1Pet.1:37; Jam.1:12.
C. Those who remain positive under the various testing and sufferings associated with the body of death reap surpassing grace reward in Phase 3 (SG3), 2Cor.4:17,18.
D. Our present sufferings pale when compared to our Phase 3 glory, Rom.8:18; 2Cor.4:17; 1Pet.5:10.
E. To the extent you are willing to acclimate to your allotted CHPs, you will inherit Phase 3 reward, 1Pet.4:13; cp. Rom.8:17.
IX. Some things to keep in mind.
A. The Lord knows your sufferings and will deliver you from them all, Ex.3:7; Ps.9:12; 35:10.
B. God will not put upon you tests you are not ready to handle, 1Cor.10:13.
C. He will supply you with the grace to handle any test, Prov.3:34.
D. Failure to handle persecution and testing explains why some peel off from doctrine, Mt.13:20,21.
E. You will not face unique tests, 1Pet.5:9; cp, 1Thess.2:14; 2Cor.1:7.
F. Suffering renders you worthy of God’s kingdom, 2Thess.1:5.
G. Your sufferings help complete the measure of suffering of the corporate body of Christ necessary before the Church’s glorification, Col.1:24.
H. Avoid fear and soul fainting, Rom.8:15-17; Heb.10:32ff.
smaller
Member
- Oct 23, 2003
- 12,380
- 664
I like to think that God uses our 'temporal afflictions' to show that He Is Superior in the Eternal Sense, making GOOD of EVIL.
It's a hard concept to get our heads around.
Romans 12:21
Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.
It is the exercise of The Divine in this present life. To be 'exposed' and 'subject to' various evils/afflictions....
yet exercised in matters of HOPE and MERCY and LOVE through the intangible matter of faith.
Evil for any of us is but for a moment. And is the temporal victor over our temporal bodies that will eventually result in our temporal death.
yet...all things are ours:
1 Corinthians 3:22
Whether Paul, or Apollos, or Cephas, or the world, or life, or death, or things present, or things to come; all are your's;
I really don't want to get 'stuck' in this present corrupt, weak dishonored aging body anyway.
How 'bout you?
We all get shucked out of this clay husk one way or another.
s
clark thompson
Member
- Feb 13, 2013
- 306
- 58
to gain closerness to the Lord.
Mountain Man
Member
- Mar 17, 2013
- 469
- 0
Makes one wonder why people who profess faith in God and the existence of heaven sometimes react the same way to the prospect of death as those who profess no faith....your reaction to and attitude towards death has much to do with your spiritual condition and maturity....it is appointed unto man once to die.
smaller
Member
- Oct 23, 2003
- 12,380
- 664
B
Brother Mike
Guest
Smaller:
Your right, God is not allowing, giving permission for, or causing anyone pain. Jesus came to give life, and give it abundantly. Floods do happen on this earth though, not in heaven and floods effect those that Have God and do not have God. Who you have effects the outcome for those without God are without hope in this World.
Jason:
I want you to look at this verse again Brother.
Pro_11:7 When a wicked man dieth, his expectation shall perish: and the hope of unjust men perisheth.
The Unjust don't have hope.............. BUT...................
Mat 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
Love your enemies because.............. BECAUSE...
Mat 5:45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
Jesus said God sends rain and sun on the just and unjust. Jesus never mentioned God sending suffering to the Just and unjust. Jesus whole point was that God is good to everyone. For rain was an extremely good thing as it gave water to crops and cattle, and filled the sheep pools. Sun was good also.
Compare:
Luk 6:35 But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.
The whole point was God is good to all, so love them. Not that God layeth the smack down on the Just and unjust alike.
clark thompson
You have a point................
1Co_5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
I would rather just obey God though and avoid all that.
Edward:
If any suffering produces clinging to the Lord, or any type of faith then we need to let these folks know as they get it all wrong.
Rev_16:9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.
It appears the amount of suffers is not any indicator that someone clings to the Lord, but just the opposite. I am also prosperous and thank God all day because He is just that good.
If suffering produced anything to repentance or giving God glory, clinging to him then most the World would already be saved.
Smaller:
That body is redeemed with promise and belongs to God which it is not your own. If your married then it certainly does not belong to you. Your youth is renewed like the eagles so stop confessing aging and start confessing what God said. You need that body to do the plan of God on earth so thank God for it, and when you have done everything, leave it in a hole and go be with the Lord. Your body is healthy, strong and of sound mind, it always has the energy and strength to do what God has called you to do. It will be over soon enough, lets use our faith and get the job done.
Mike.
Your right, God is not allowing, giving permission for, or causing anyone pain. Jesus came to give life, and give it abundantly. Floods do happen on this earth though, not in heaven and floods effect those that Have God and do not have God. Who you have effects the outcome for those without God are without hope in this World.
Jason:
I want you to look at this verse again Brother.
Pro_11:7 When a wicked man dieth, his expectation shall perish: and the hope of unjust men perisheth.
The Unjust don't have hope.............. BUT...................
Mat 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
Love your enemies because.............. BECAUSE...
Mat 5:45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
Jesus said God sends rain and sun on the just and unjust. Jesus never mentioned God sending suffering to the Just and unjust. Jesus whole point was that God is good to everyone. For rain was an extremely good thing as it gave water to crops and cattle, and filled the sheep pools. Sun was good also.
Compare:
Luk 6:35 But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.
The whole point was God is good to all, so love them. Not that God layeth the smack down on the Just and unjust alike.
clark thompson
You have a point................
1Co_5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
I would rather just obey God though and avoid all that.
Edward:
If any suffering produces clinging to the Lord, or any type of faith then we need to let these folks know as they get it all wrong.
Rev_16:9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.
It appears the amount of suffers is not any indicator that someone clings to the Lord, but just the opposite. I am also prosperous and thank God all day because He is just that good.
If suffering produced anything to repentance or giving God glory, clinging to him then most the World would already be saved.
Smaller:
That body is redeemed with promise and belongs to God which it is not your own. If your married then it certainly does not belong to you. Your youth is renewed like the eagles so stop confessing aging and start confessing what God said. You need that body to do the plan of God on earth so thank God for it, and when you have done everything, leave it in a hole and go be with the Lord. Your body is healthy, strong and of sound mind, it always has the energy and strength to do what God has called you to do. It will be over soon enough, lets use our faith and get the job done.
Mike.
B
Brother Mike
Guest
Edward
Right on Brother, there is no absolute. When my son got cancer I was serving God and praising him the same. When I was told my son would not live, I was still serving God and praising him the same. When my wife called from Chicago children's memorial hospital saying that my son would not live through the night. I never changed, I still thanked God that His Word never fails and my son will be just fine. I am not moved by any report but what I believe, and I believe with Long life my God will satisfy my son.
So, that was my worse trial and the flood hit during the time I was fulling teaching the Word in a homeless shelter and helping others doing the plan of God.
The Flood can come!!!! For no apparent reason. It comes for those founded on the Rock, and those that did not pay attention building their house on the sand. It can come though.
So what was the point of that trail? It did one thing, through patience, it produced hope to be used later. Like David, who killed the bear, and the lion God gave into his hands, whats a man like Goliath who does not even know God can do over a lion? David reminded himself of that past experience.
NOW................
Before I knew God, I was facing 18-90 years in prison. I turned to Jesus as I thought that was the best place to turn. I needed help and needed it Now. I never cared much about Jesus before those felony charges hit.
Once again, this was not God's doing, I did some dumb and stupid things to get myself in this position. God did not plan it, or even his will that I did what I did as it would have broken a few of his commandments. Here the trouble was my own, and I turned to God at this point because I needed help.
Some in prison turned to Allah, some to Buddha I can't believe I was just smarter than the rest, but I did have a praying grandma that was in prayer for me day and night. I believe through prayer God honors our prayer on the behalf of others, allow those people to see more clearly and make right choices, and the right choice is Jesus.
Most of the grief we go through is self inflicted. Sickness is just the devil being a butt head and not a issue. There are cases though were we are not at fault and the flood does come. So it's not a matter of God causing anything or putting us through anything as Jesus came to give life abundantly. It's a matter of who you know, and what you believe when and if the flood hits.
Blessings.
Mike.
Right on Brother, there is no absolute. When my son got cancer I was serving God and praising him the same. When I was told my son would not live, I was still serving God and praising him the same. When my wife called from Chicago children's memorial hospital saying that my son would not live through the night. I never changed, I still thanked God that His Word never fails and my son will be just fine. I am not moved by any report but what I believe, and I believe with Long life my God will satisfy my son.
So, that was my worse trial and the flood hit during the time I was fulling teaching the Word in a homeless shelter and helping others doing the plan of God.
The Flood can come!!!! For no apparent reason. It comes for those founded on the Rock, and those that did not pay attention building their house on the sand. It can come though.
So what was the point of that trail? It did one thing, through patience, it produced hope to be used later. Like David, who killed the bear, and the lion God gave into his hands, whats a man like Goliath who does not even know God can do over a lion? David reminded himself of that past experience.
NOW................
Before I knew God, I was facing 18-90 years in prison. I turned to Jesus as I thought that was the best place to turn. I needed help and needed it Now. I never cared much about Jesus before those felony charges hit.
Once again, this was not God's doing, I did some dumb and stupid things to get myself in this position. God did not plan it, or even his will that I did what I did as it would have broken a few of his commandments. Here the trouble was my own, and I turned to God at this point because I needed help.
Some in prison turned to Allah, some to Buddha I can't believe I was just smarter than the rest, but I did have a praying grandma that was in prayer for me day and night. I believe through prayer God honors our prayer on the behalf of others, allow those people to see more clearly and make right choices, and the right choice is Jesus.
Most of the grief we go through is self inflicted. Sickness is just the devil being a butt head and not a issue. There are cases though were we are not at fault and the flood does come. So it's not a matter of God causing anything or putting us through anything as Jesus came to give life abundantly. It's a matter of who you know, and what you believe when and if the flood hits.
Blessings.
Mike.
smaller
Member
- Oct 23, 2003
- 12,380
- 664
Never stated such. Nothing happens or exists within Gods creation without His explicit permissions.
Oh please spare me the imaginary drivel.
It is no crime of faith to see and 'confess' the FACT that we have corrupt, weak, dishonorable natural bodies.
s
B
Brother Mike
Guest
smaller
So nothing happens without God's permission? ummm. It's all God's fault. I am sure you have tons of scriptures to prove this. Brother, no offense, but you make lots of off the wall comments without scriptural support. To believe something you really should take the time to examine the Word concerning it.
Jesus only pray the perfect will of God? (hint, the answer is yes)
Mat 6:10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.
Jesus said, God's will be done on Earth as it is in Heaven. RED letters!!! Now one has to ask if there are any bad parts of town in Heaven? Place not safe to venture into? Are there any Hospitals in Heaven? Just in case we get run over by a chariot or one of our angel wings give out in mid flight. God's will be done on earth AS IT IS IN HEAVEN.
Why would Jesus even pray this? It would have to be that not everything on earth that happens is the Will of God. So to say that ...............
Would be saying that in Heaven also there are deaths, sickness, accidents and High insurance premiums. Unless of course Jesus lied and God has two different wills, one for Earth and one for heaven.
In Heaven God's will and plan is enforced, it's his Kingdom and His way.
Psa_53:2 God looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, that did seek God.
God is look down to see/???? if any understand? This sound to you like God is in complete control here? Or does it sound like God is looking for those He can use to do His will?
The Problem:
Psa_115:16 The heaven, even the heavens, are the LORD'S: but the earth hath he given to the children of men.
The heavens belong to Who? Could that be why Heaven runs the way it does? Who does the earth belong to? could that be why things on earth are the way they are? Jesus came to enforce the Kingdom of God here on Earth, God's will be done on earth as it is in Heaven. God does not have two separate wills.
Lam 3:32 But though he cause grief, yet will he have compassion according to the multitude of his mercies.
Lam 3:33 For he doth not afflict willingly nor grieve the children of men.
Eze 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
Now Smaller, according to you
Nothing happens or exists within Gods creation without His explicit permissions.
Yet God says He takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked and God does not inflict willingly. Could it be that even though bad things happen or God has to judge, could it be that was not His will to start with but mans choices?
It depends on what you consider the facts to be I suppose. Out of the abundance of your own heart you are going to speak. Let me give you some facts.
1Co 6:20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.
So even though God now owns your body, it's still dishonorable?
Rom_8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken (Make alive) your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
Php 4:13 I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.
So even though the Holy Spirit is here for us to make alive and give us strength which we can do all things, you would rather confess your weak and powerless. Is that what you believe as fact?
Is this "Imaginary Drivel" because you refuse to side with truth and only look at natural fact? Just saying.
Mike.
So nothing happens without God's permission? ummm. It's all God's fault. I am sure you have tons of scriptures to prove this. Brother, no offense, but you make lots of off the wall comments without scriptural support. To believe something you really should take the time to examine the Word concerning it.
Jesus only pray the perfect will of God? (hint, the answer is yes)
Mat 6:10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.
Jesus said, God's will be done on Earth as it is in Heaven. RED letters!!! Now one has to ask if there are any bad parts of town in Heaven? Place not safe to venture into? Are there any Hospitals in Heaven? Just in case we get run over by a chariot or one of our angel wings give out in mid flight. God's will be done on earth AS IT IS IN HEAVEN.
Why would Jesus even pray this? It would have to be that not everything on earth that happens is the Will of God. So to say that ...............
Would be saying that in Heaven also there are deaths, sickness, accidents and High insurance premiums. Unless of course Jesus lied and God has two different wills, one for Earth and one for heaven.
In Heaven God's will and plan is enforced, it's his Kingdom and His way.
Psa_53:2 God looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, that did seek God.
God is look down to see/???? if any understand? This sound to you like God is in complete control here? Or does it sound like God is looking for those He can use to do His will?
The Problem:
Psa_115:16 The heaven, even the heavens, are the LORD'S: but the earth hath he given to the children of men.
The heavens belong to Who? Could that be why Heaven runs the way it does? Who does the earth belong to? could that be why things on earth are the way they are? Jesus came to enforce the Kingdom of God here on Earth, God's will be done on earth as it is in Heaven. God does not have two separate wills.
Lam 3:32 But though he cause grief, yet will he have compassion according to the multitude of his mercies.
Lam 3:33 For he doth not afflict willingly nor grieve the children of men.
Eze 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
Now Smaller, according to you
Nothing happens or exists within Gods creation without His explicit permissions.
Yet God says He takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked and God does not inflict willingly. Could it be that even though bad things happen or God has to judge, could it be that was not His will to start with but mans choices?
It depends on what you consider the facts to be I suppose. Out of the abundance of your own heart you are going to speak. Let me give you some facts.
1Co 6:20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.
So even though God now owns your body, it's still dishonorable?
Rom_8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken (Make alive) your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
Php 4:13 I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.
So even though the Holy Spirit is here for us to make alive and give us strength which we can do all things, you would rather confess your weak and powerless. Is that what you believe as fact?
Is this "Imaginary Drivel" because you refuse to side with truth and only look at natural fact? Just saying.
Mike.
smaller
Member
- Oct 23, 2003
- 12,380
- 664
If God overcomes all things I don't see the problem.
And yes, everything that transpires within creation stems to First Cause one way or another.
The First Cause presentation should be familiar to most christians, especially if they are 'creationists' as MOST christians are. I assume you are familiar with that presentation as well?
First Cause is in no need of citations to any christian or at least shouldn't be.
Text even tells us that unbelievers can figure out via creation itself that there may in fact be a Creator.
So I expect 'believers' have a bit more sense?
Not in this case, no. But in case you are in need of scriptural support there is a Creator I may direct you to an online concordance and you can type in the word creation or creator coupled with, you know, ALL THINGS, and see what you can come up with?
The Perfect Will of God which only you happen to know? You mean 'that' Perfect Will?
I am always wary of anyone who claims to have a total complete and comprehensive handle on PERFECTION just so you know. I certainly don't.
Most good definitionists will point to the multiple Will of God from the N.T. The 'good,' 'acceptable' and Perfect.
The Will of God is not as simple as a man's declaration of same. I've met many believers claiming they have a handle on it but it was ALWAYS their own imaginations of same rather than Gods, at least from my perspective.
Wasn't aware that heaven became our speculative venture. As far as I know WE won't even exist there, at least how we presently perceive ourselves to be.
Colossians 3:3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
I'd like to think that coming reality is a bit more wonderful than anything my petty imagination can muster up.
I'd say only that your 'reasoning' is faulty and nothing more than that.
Since First Cause was brought up, you can add 'omission' to the matter as well.
For the short version, the argument of 'omission' is that God is technically Great Enough to put aside all evil and sin permanently anytime He feels like doing so, but doesn't because He Wills not to, thereby ALLOWING it.
Feel free to jump through the First Cause hoop first and the 'omission' clause hoop secondly if you want to 'extricate' 'exclude' and 'isolate' God from anything that happens within His creation.
Earth I can look at and observe. Yet even in that observation there are invisible matters to contend with.
Heaven is a matter of blinded speculations, when we take them on.
Quite honestly I don't believe your version is anywhere close to truthful or accurate. If heaven were not in need of 'future shaking' it may very well be as you say, but that is not the case:
Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Still wanna talk your heaven fantasy?
I don't buy the 'God is in need of ME' stories either, just so ya know.
God in need? Please.
If He's 'in need' the balance of us probably don't stand much of a prayer do we?
Everything belongs to God so let's put that one off the table.
I reject your fantasies about what happens in 'heaven.' Fact is you or I don't have a clue. We have shadows and types to observe and handle and that's it.
Neither of us knows these matters 'fully Perfectly or experientially Perfectly.'
I might only observe you really don't know or have a clue what the Perfect Will of God Is.
I certainly don't.
One of us is speaking honestly. The other one is just guessing.
Yep.
I can not logically extract anything in creation from God's Omnipresence, Omnipotence or Omniscience. To me such attempts are merely human foibles and follies.
I really don't know who yer tryin' to kid with that statement. Divine Retributive Evil is a fact of the O.T. and the N.T. And yes, that RETRIBUTIVE EVIL is done by God, readily and willingly.
I don't buy the 'man's will operates all alone in a vacuum' stories either.
smaller said:
I take that statement of facts from Paul in 1 Cor. 15:42-50.
And no, it is not a crime of 'faith' to speak factually aka honestly.
No 'confession' is going to alter those facts.
Paul said he was the chief sinner after salvation and had a devil in his flesh. You'd rather ignore the obvious?
I would certainly say that for the devil in Paul's flesh none of the PROMISES of GOD would apply other than all of the promises on the dire side of the ledgers. It's rather a moot point to see just Paul when he didn't present himself that way.
Yeah, pretty much there Mike. You have quite a handful of it, honestly.
Nothing personal mind you. Just some really bad 'positional understandings.' I sense a strong charismatic background or perhaps even a bit more. Sometimes it takes a few bites for me to pin down the exact denominational camp ground.
s
B
Brother Mike
Guest
Smaller:
My roots are baptist, but Word of Faith camp would be the best definition. I am not really into hanging off the rafters and laughing manically, so not Charismatic, but just the Word and believe the Word in a simple to understand way.
So you understand the camp now, I take things literal. Jesus said you have what you say if you believe it in your heart. (Mark 11:23) I just take that as fact. I know being Baptist that there are some very hard core Calvinist baptist out there. Some not so hard core but hang to some type of election doctrine.
So my question then, is it possible that things can happen to use that was not in God's plan? If yes, it is possible, then it would be possible that bad things can happen that might be our fault, and not God's plan. It also means that since the earth is not in the best of shape, things could just happen without our fault that were not in God's plan.
Would you think that even possible? If not, I understand growing up in an election based church. I am not faulting that belief because to debate it further means about 20 more pages of forum postings.
Blessings.
Mike.
My roots are baptist, but Word of Faith camp would be the best definition. I am not really into hanging off the rafters and laughing manically, so not Charismatic, but just the Word and believe the Word in a simple to understand way.
So you understand the camp now, I take things literal. Jesus said you have what you say if you believe it in your heart. (Mark 11:23) I just take that as fact. I know being Baptist that there are some very hard core Calvinist baptist out there. Some not so hard core but hang to some type of election doctrine.
So my question then, is it possible that things can happen to use that was not in God's plan? If yes, it is possible, then it would be possible that bad things can happen that might be our fault, and not God's plan. It also means that since the earth is not in the best of shape, things could just happen without our fault that were not in God's plan.
Would you think that even possible? If not, I understand growing up in an election based church. I am not faulting that belief because to debate it further means about 20 more pages of forum postings.
Blessings.
Mike.
smaller
Member
- Oct 23, 2003
- 12,380
- 664
aw, how did I know?
You do understand that WoF camps in general are pretty weak and sometimes quite heretical in their 'orthodox' understandings and the Trinity is an often attacked point in the camp.
Really don't want to bother getting into it as I knew where you were coming from before we started.
Been there, done that. About 2 decades or more ago.
s
B
Brother Mike
Guest
Smaller:
My Church believes in trinity, I have never heard the trinity attacked one time and I have listened to a whole lot of different WOF teachers. TBN (Trinity Broadcast Network) Has lots of this WOF teaching and all believe in Trinity. (I can't stand TBN, just saying) Your assumption must be that if your a certain denomination then you must have the correct view on everything. I asked your view if it's possible that something can happen that God did not design, plan, or purpose. Do you believe that is possible?
My Church believes in trinity, I have never heard the trinity attacked one time and I have listened to a whole lot of different WOF teachers. TBN (Trinity Broadcast Network) Has lots of this WOF teaching and all believe in Trinity. (I can't stand TBN, just saying) Your assumption must be that if your a certain denomination then you must have the correct view on everything. I asked your view if it's possible that something can happen that God did not design, plan, or purpose. Do you believe that is possible?