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papal preacher tells pontiff

J

JM

Member
Bill posted this on another forum:

""Christianity does not start with that which man must do to save himself, but with what God has done to save him," Capuchin Father Raniero Cantalamessa said in his Dec. 16 Advent meditation.

The preacher told the pope and top Vatican officials that they, like St. Paul, must avoid any temptation to think that the good works they have accomplished will guarantee their salvation.

"Gratuitous justification through faith in Christ is the heart" of St. Paul's preaching "and it is a shame that this has been practically absent from the ordinary preaching of the church," he said."
http://www.catholic.org/international/i ... p?id=18021
 
I saw this article quite some time ago and even looked up the pastors sermon and read it. I am sure many of you are saying, this guy has alot of courage. You are sure he will be excommincated and defrocked before he is placed on a pile of wood. No, what he said was excellent and completely consistant with the Catholic faith. Catholicism says that we are saved by grace alone. We see that grace as happening throughout our lives, before we are "saved" with a great infusion of grace when we are saved and then it is God's grace that allows us to persevere. I was thinking about all of this today after Mass and so I thank JM for posting this article. I can assue you the Pope had no problem with what the dear pastor said.

I was thinking about the big issue with Once Saved Always Saved. It rightly acknowledges that a man recieves grace at the moment he comes to faith, though it seems very confused by how he got there and cannot figure out how a totally depraved person could come to faith it seems. Then afterward they seem to have difficulty recognizing that God is very active in the perseverence of the "saved" christian. Yet cannot reconcile this with free will.

Catholicism teaches we are saved by grace alone. It is not our works that save. It is God working in and through us which manifests itself in the good that we do. Protestants many times are aghast at the thought that we can do any good. We must do good of course for that is what we are judged by. Read romans 2:4-8 if you don't believe me or Matt 25. yet God gives us the grace to do it.

Thanks for the post JM.

Blessings
 
Thessalonian said:
I saw this article quite some time ago and even looked up the pastors sermon and read it. I am sure many of you are saying, this guy has alot of courage. You are sure he will be excommincated and defrocked before he is placed on a pile of wood. No, what he said was excellent and completely consistant with the Catholic faith. Catholicism says that we are saved by grace alone. We see that grace as happening throughout our lives, before we are "saved" with a great infusion of grace when we are saved and then it is God's grace that allows us to persevere. I was thinking about all of this today after Mass and so I thank JM for posting this article. I can assue you the Pope had no problem with what the dear pastor said.

I was thinking about the big issue with Once Saved Always Saved. It rightly acknowledges that a man recieves grace at the moment he comes to faith, though it seems very confused by how he got there and cannot figure out how a totally depraved person could come to faith it seems. Then afterward they seem to have difficulty recognizing that God is very active in the perseverence of the "saved" christian. Yet cannot reconcile this with free will.

Catholicism teaches we are saved by grace alone. It is not our works that save. It is God working in and through us which manifests itself in the good that we do. Protestants many times are aghast at the thought that we can do any good. We must do good of course for that is what we are judged by. Read romans 2:4-8 if you don't believe me or Matt 25. yet God gives us the grace to do it.

Thanks for the post JM.

Blessings
Click to expand...
Does God's grace stop when you refuse to take part in the Roman Catholic Mass, and then you are lost and apart from God's grace? Or does God's grace continue because you are saved by the blood of Jesus which was shed once for all, and the mass has nothing to do with salvation?
 
We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff (Pope Boniface VIII, Unam Sanctam).

The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes, and preaches that none of those existing outside the (Roman) Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgiving, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the (Roman) Catholic Church (Pope Eugene IV, Cantate Domino).

How arrogant..... and sad.

If you read the history of the Roman Catholic Church, who would want to be subject to some of the thieves, womanizers and murderers that have called themselves "Popes"?

:)
 
Solo said:
Thessalonian said:
Blessings
Click to expand...
Does God's grace stop when you refuse to take part in the Roman Catholic Mass, and then you are lost and apart from God's grace? Or does God's grace continue because you are saved by the blood of Jesus which was shed once for all, and the mass has nothing to do with salvation?
Click to expand...

Typical response. Don't deal with the issue at hand. Distort and twist what I say. The answer to your question is that there are many forms of grace. It is not just God being nice but God bringing his plan to fruition by the power of the Holy Spirit working ON all men. All men recieve God's grace ever time they take a breath of air or look at a butterfly that reflects the beuaty of God, or contemplate the complexity of the eye which should tell them that not in 100 Billion years could this happen by accident. They may ignore this grace but they have all recieved it. God "desires that all men be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth". Thus all men recieve his grace. Those who do not respond are among the damned and have noone to blame but themselves.

Can you go to heaven if you reject the Mass, which you wrongly and dichtomously separate from God and his grace? Not if they have recieved the grace to understand it and reject it. This of course concerns me for many like yourself on this board. But I don't judge as you want me to. I'll leave it to God to judge if your ignorance in these matters is culpable or not. Tell me, if someone doesn't know everything that you know do they go to hell? If they don't believe in OSAS as you do, do they go to hell? My guess is you will say no. But even if you don't, many Protestants on this very board will say no. Many will say they don't have to believe in the Trinity to be saved. There is wide disagreement on what is neccessary to know to go to heaven. On what is neccessary on what must be done to go to heaven in Protestantism. So don't think you are off the hook by your question. It actually presents more of a conundrum for you I suspect, though you will not acknowledge it. There are 20 different plans of salvation by twenty different posters on this board. Read the comments of your fellow Protestants who believe in Bible alone yet contradict eachother all the time on this board.

Thanks for your question.

Blessings
 
Gary said:
We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff (Pope Boniface VIII, Unam Sanctam).

The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes, and preaches that none of those existing outside the (Roman) Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgiving, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the (Roman) Catholic Church (Pope Eugene IV, Cantate Domino).

How arrogant..... and sad.

If you read the history of the Roman Catholic Church, who would want to be subject to some of the thieves, womanizers and murderers that have called themselves "Popes"?

:)
Click to expand...

Catholic theology is spoken in a normative manner, not limiting God to the graces of his sacraments. You of course do not understand what I am talking about and I am not going to get in to that circle here and derail this thread. More attacks without acknowledging the issues of the OP.

Blessings
 
JM said:
Bill posted this on another forum:

""Christianity does not start with that which man must do to save himself, but with what God has done to save him," Capuchin Father Raniero Cantalamessa said in his Dec. 16 Advent meditation.

The preacher told the pope and top Vatican officials that they, like St. Paul, must avoid any temptation to think that the good works they have accomplished will guarantee their salvation.

"Gratuitous justification through faith in Christ is the heart" of St. Paul's preaching "and it is a shame that this has been practically absent from the ordinary preaching of the church," he said."
http://www.catholic.org/international/i ... p?id=18021
Click to expand...

Getting back to the OP reminds me that the Apostle Paul said that he rejoiced whenever the gospel is preached, even though some did it from rivalry & to hurt him while he was wrongfully jailed

The OP reminded me of the courage of Martin Luther, who struggled long & hard to find assurance of salvation till he read & understood the great epistle to the Romans

"The righteous are as bold as a lion"

Even after the Acts 2 initial baptism in the Holy Spirit, the disciples soon learn that we sinners soon leak the blessing: in Acts 4, they knew their need to seek & receive a baptism of Holy Spirit boldness to preach the glorious good news gospel fearlessly

How we need to do that today, in face of Al Qaida etc threats

Like Luther, & like the guy in the OP article, we evangelicals expose the errors of the RC system in order to share the way of salvation & save RC friends from their bondage to fear, as in the thread I joined last Wed

Back with link, emphasising that I have had good RC friends all my life & "speak the truth in love..by all means to save some"

http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopi ... 7&start=15

God TV, just 5/6 hours ago, featured 2 messages on the theme of truly godly authority

The unity that born-again, Bible-believing, Spirit-led Christians are to seek is unity in "the faith once-for-all delivered to the saints" - in Man's Maker's Manual, the Bible, which shows that Christ's sacrifice was once-for-all - not repeated in any 'Mass'
 
Mr. V.

Could we have a little dialogue with you. You post straw men and red herrrings about Cathoicism while clearly not understanding it. You have two degrees in Protestant colleges but you are not out of grade school regarding Cathoilcism. Let's talk dude. Your looking foolish regarding your take on Catholic theology. There is nothing that was spoken in the priests commentary that is contrary to anything the Pope himself would think. I've read enough of his writings to know that. You haven't. Blessings.
 
Yo Thess!

As I said in The Two Babylons thread, anyone who knows the Bible well need only search RC-HQ site, click catechism & compare said 'new' but catachlysmically catastrophic catechism with the clear teachings of Man's Maker's Manual, the Bible

As I've often had to say in my 4.5 years on 'Net discussion forums, the greatest weakness of writing/reading is that ya can't hear the gentle tone or see the twinkle in the eye...

but hey: I'm a Scouser, know wot I mean? :wink:

Right back with that promised link.. 8-)

http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopi ... 7&start=15

& pleased to say that I hope to get daily time online from now on: unlike the past 3 months since I moved to Beautiful, Batty Bootle, 2 miles from the centre of Lovable, Loony Liverpool in Magical, Mad Merseyside :D

Anyone who heard me debate with BBC Radio Merseyside's Roger Phillips, on Jan 10, knows I reminded him that my last time on was the day the '97 General Election date was anounced, calling for Brit good humour :-D

The 1st of the 40+ times I got on that phone-in, & several times since, I encouraged both his researcher beforehand, & him on air, that lively, robust debate makes great radio ;-)

Roger & I have had many a passionate debate, especially @ the myriad fulfilled Bible prophecies that show Jesus is coming soon

Equally, as he agreed, we've never fallen out over any & both enjoy the thorough, good workout we give each other

Audiences seem to call for regular encores too: he said last Fri that faith will feature on that lunch-time phone-in regularly over the next 3 months

Specifically, the blasphemous Jerry Springer Opera opens at L'pool Empire one June Mon night, & that pm phone-in & prog will feature a group of folk, inc from "Christian groups who will be handing out literature" will see it 1st in Manchester then debate it live that Mon lunchtime on BBC Radio Merseyside

Hit http://www.bbc.co.uk, click radio..then local..then M'side

Folk phone from all over, as the famous L'pool wit make it the most popular local radio station in UK

As Proverbs puts it, "Man sharpens man as iron sharpens iron"

As I said to him, Jan 10, this sure ain't no time to mess around with God (talking about that Nutty Prof Richard (Dorky) Dawkins' pathetic Jan documentaries calling for the rejection & destruction of all religion

Right back, dudes... 8-)

Back with link as promised

http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopi ... 7&start=15
 
Mr. V,

Your post reminds me of the child who puts his hands over his ears and says "NA NA NA NA" I can't hear you. Did you read my reply to the post on the other thread. Apparently not. Like I say, your not out of grade school on Catholicism. I find it unlikely that you've read the Catechism on your own. And in my view you have a rather limited view of the scriptures which causes you to not see the great beauty of the Catholic faith. Your pride in your degrees will not let you have an honest discussion with a Catholic on what his religion really teaches it appears. Glad to have you here though. I like straw men and red herrings and you will provide an ample supply.

What's a scouser?

Blessings dude.
 
To the objections raised by the reformers, the Council of Trent had given a Catholic response, that there is a place for faith and for good works, each one, it was understood, in its place. One is not saved by good works, but one cannot be saved without good works. Nevertheless, from this moment in which the Protestants insisted unilaterally on faith, Catholic preaching and spirituality ended up accepting the nearly exclusive and thankless work of calling to mind the need for good works and of one's personal contribution to salvation. The result is that the great majority of Catholics have lived entire lives without having ever heard a direct announcement of gratuitous justification by faith, without too many "buts."
Click to expand...

That is a Roman Catholic talking. Now Thessalonian wants us to believe that "... what he said was excellent and completely consistent with the Catholic faith."

So is "The result is that the great majority of Catholics have lived entire lives without having ever heard a direct announcement of gratuitous justification by faith, without too many "buts" consistent with Catholic faith?

Which is it? Either they were wrong in the past or they were not. Either they were NOT preaching "gratuitous justification by faith" or they were. You can't have it both ways.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

As for salvation, either the pope's words are true or not. Which is it?

Salvation by being subject to the Roman Catholic pontiff or not?

Premise (a): We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff (Pope Boniface VIII, Unam Sanctam).

Premise (b): There is but one universal Church of the faithful, outside of which no one at all can be saved (Pope Innocent III, Fourth Lateran Council).

OR....

Premise (c): "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place among whom are the Muslims: these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day." (Second Vatican Council, Lumen Gentium).

So Muslims and Jews and us "pagans" were not saved; now we are, especially if you are a Muslim!!

:o :o :o
 
As I have already said and as the Roman Catholic Raniero Cantalamessa said on his own web site:

Raniero Cantalamessa said:
...Catholic preaching and spirituality ended up accepting the nearly exclusive and thankless work of calling to mind the need for good works and of one's personal contribution to salvation. The result is that the great majority of Catholics have lived entire lives without having ever heard a direct announcement of gratuitous justification by faith, without too many "buts."
Click to expand...

Here is the full text of the letter: http://www.cantalamessa.org/en/2005Avvento3.htm

Here is a comment about this letter from someone who was initially caught in this faithless preaching but has since left the Roman Catholic Church:

Joe Mizzi said:
Catholic Monk Preaches Justification by Faith, Not for Works

Ever since I trusted in the Lord Jesus for my salvation, I have endeavored to proclaim the same Gospel message that brought me liberty, forgiveness and eternal life in Christ. My emphasis has always been "justification by grace through faith in Christ alone, apart from the merits of personal works." I appreciate why many Catholics simply dismiss this blessed truth -- since childhood we have been taught that salvation comes through the sacraments, prayer, good works and obedience to the commandments. I had never heard a priest preach free justification by faith in Christ.

But now, for the first time in my life, I was overjoyed to read a Catholic priest, the Capuchin monk Raniero Cantalamessa, proclaim the message of gratuitous justification by faith. Raniero Cantalamessa is the preacher to the Papal household; he delivered a message entitled "St. Paul's Faith in Christ" on December 16th 2005 before Pope Benedict XVI and other top Vatican officials.

"Salvation is received by faith, and not for works," he said. "Gratuitous justification by faith in Christ is the heart" of St. Paul's preaching, and it is a shame that it is "practically absent from ordinary preaching in the Church."

He suggested that the insistence of Catholic preaching on the "need for good works and of one's personal contribution to salvation" happened as a reaction to the Protestant Reformation emphasis on faith alone. "The result is that the great majority of Catholics have lived entire lives without having ever heard a direct announcement of gratuitous justification by faith, without too many 'buts.'"

The apostle Paul, in his Letter to the Philippians, warned of "the mortal danger" of putting our good works between us and Christ, as if the works would save us.

Fr. Cantalamessa called religious people to "the most necessary conversion for those that have followed Christ and have lived serving him in the Church. A conversion altogether special, which does not consist in abandoning evil, but rather, in a certain sense, in abandoning the good!"

Fr. Cantalamessa told a familiar Italian story about the shepherds near Bethlehem going to visit the newborn Jesus, each of them trying to outdo the others with the beauty of the gifts they offered. One poor shepherd had nothing and was ashamed.

"Mary didn't know how to receive all of them, for she had the Child in her arms. So, seeing the poor shepherd with his hands free, she gave him Jesus to hold. Having empty hands was his fortune, and on another level, it will also be our fortune," he concluded.

Would you also let go of your merits, and with empty hands and a grateful heart receive the free gift of salvation? "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved," is the trustworthy promise of the Bible.
Click to expand...

Source: http://www.justforcatholics.org

("Just for Catholics" is an evangelical and evangelistic work - "Evangelical" (or Protestant) because we uphold the Holy Scripture as our only infallible rule of faith, and because we believe in salvation by grace through faith in Christ alone; it's "evangelistic" because we want to share the evangel (gospel, good news) with others. It is not authored by Roman Catholics, but it is intended especially for Catholics. While acknowledging with gratitude the help from my pastor and home church, as well as scores of individual Christians worldwide, I take full responsibility for the contents of this website. - Joe Mizzi)

:)
 
Good Day, Thess

A quick question, do you agree Luther rediscovered: a yes or no will do,

Nothing of this text can be understood, even to the point that it could inspire fear more than consolation (as occurred for centuries), if the term "righteousness of God" is interpreted incorrectly. It was Luther who rediscovered that "righteousness of God" does not indicate here chastisement, or worse, his revenge, toward man, but rather it indicates, on the contrary, the act through which God "makes" man "just." (He really said "declares," not "makes," just, because he was thinking of an extrinsic or legal justification, in an imputation of justice, more than a real being made just.)

I said "rediscovered," because much earlier than him St. Augustine had written: "The 'righteousness of God' is used in the sense of our being made righteous by his gift ('iustitia Dei, qua iusti eius munere efficimur'), and 'the salvation of the Lord' (Psalm 3:9), in that we are saved by him."[2]

Peace to u,

Bill
 
Hi again, Thess!

I musta run outa time before I could say, in @ my 1st post here, that I went weekly for @ 2 years to an RC-led charismatic after-church fellowship

I had no embarrassment in telling my Pentecostal friends that, in those 2 years, I heard no Mary-olatry or prayers to saints

It was only when such abominations came in - @ a day-long conference 1 Sat - that I felt unable to attend any more

Outa love for my RC friends/colleagues - (in a soup kitchen whose 3 other staff were all called Mary: hilarious!) - I didn't correct the errant priest publicly & out loud, but quietly & respectfully talked to my friends in the break & left

It was inside 2 weeks that someone gave me The Two Babylons & I hand-delivered summaries to my main RC friends

Others said they'd leave RCs & join Pentecostals if cardinals picked 'Rotweiller Ratzinger'

I'm sure JP2 died on April Fools' Day, as that early morning, news said he was only hours away from death

But then the well-oiled propaganda machine kicked in & hid his death till 2nd

Likewise, Papa-Ratzi successfully hoodwinked the masses with his smiles & waves, but the leopard ain't changed his spots, eh?

Btw, 2 April is when http://www.VisitSpace.net hits Liverpool Royal Court Theatre - 4/5 top Christian bands @ just £4 if ya really want good dialogues, dudes!

God bless & enjoy Mardi Gras..

as per http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060228/ap_ ... mardi_gras

Ian
 
Mr.V. Your very good at jumping around from one thing to another. I can see we will have no honest dialogue with you.

"But then the well-oiled propaganda machine kicked in & hid his death till
2nd "

Conspiriacy theories are so easy to come up with. I am sure I will see this one on ten other sites now. :-?
 
R U Sir Hiss?

It's the sensing of the slithering of the serpent I see in all RC Machiavellian machinations

Any threads on Dan Brown v Holy Grail idiots?
 
MrVersatile48 said:
R U Sir Hiss?

It's the sensing of the slithering of the serpent I see in all RC Machiavellian machinations

Any threads on Dan Brown v Holy Grail idiots?
Click to expand...

Ah, ad hom. Thanks.
 
Got the PM that you didn't have the guts to post here, where it belongs


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"The joy of the Lord is your strength" - Nehemiah 8:10

Rejoice in the Lord always" - Phil 4:4

Paul wrote that while chained to the walls of a Roman dungeon

He & Silas sang their hearts out in hymns of praise that won their fellow-prisoners & jailer to the Lord

& God sent a mighty warrior angel to get them out of jail by sheer miracle power of God

Nicky Gumbel said last night that over 90% of UK jails now run Alpha courses

Another even more famous preacher - Jim Bakker - testified how he & ex-Richard Nixon hatchet man wre won to Christ in prison

Charles Colson then founded Prisons Christian Fellowship

I was in Moorlands Bible College with Hell's Angel author Brian Greenaway, who has worked in UK prison minstry ever since & seen many saved, healed, delivered & anointed to serve God & free others

& don't you dare to call God's Word puerile/infantile/deceiving

Timely Word for Today from http://www.arcamax.com



Today's Scripture

Faithful He Remains!

In thy steadfast love spare my life,
that I may keep the testimonies of thy mouth.

For ever, O LORD, thy word
is firmly fixed in the heavens.

Thy faithfulness endures to all generations;
thou hast established the earth,
and it stands fast.

Psalm 119:88-90 RSV

__________________

Now you have every spiritual gift you need as you eagerly wait for the return of our Lord Jesus Christ. He will keep you strong right up to the end, and he will keep you free from all blame on the great day when our Lord Jesus Christ returns.

God will surely do this for you, for he always does just what he says, and he is the one who invited you into this wonderful friendship with his Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.

1 Corinthians 1:7-9 NLT

__________________

Thanks be unto God for His wonderful gift:
Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God
is the object of our faith; the only faith
that saves is faith in Him.

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February 28: Matthew 8:1-13, Exodus 39-40, Proverbs 18
Click Here for the complete schedule

Or Copy and paste this link into your browser:
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Weekly Meditation

My Soul Thirsts for Thee

O God, You are my God;
I shall seek You earnestly;
My soul thirsts for You,
my flesh yearns for You,
In a dry and weary land
where there is no water.

Thus I have seen You in the sanctuary,
To see Your power and Your glory.

Because Your lovingkindness is better than life,
My lips will praise You.

So I will bless You as long as I live;
I will lift up my hands in Your name.

Psalm 63:1-4 NASB
 
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Got the PM that you didn't have the guts to post here, where it belongs
Click to expand...

Mr. Hiss here. Could you please take your personal issues offline in the pm. That's what it is for. Thanks dude. I'm sure the mods will give you a reminder soon. We need to avoid some of this off topic clutter on these threads.
 
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