Bible Study Parables why., Matt 13 & Isa 6

[bbas 64]

Good Day, All

Parables why?

Mat 13:10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?


Mat 13:11 And he answered them, "To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given.


The knowledge secrets of the kingdom were given to whom, the apostles. Who gave them the knowledge? God the Father gave them the knowledge.

Flesh and blood has not reveled this but the Father which is in heaven.

Mat 13:12 For to the one who has, more will be given, and he will have an abundance, but from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away.

The one who has “what†will more be given to the measure of abundance?

The one who has knowledge, more will be given as they are taught of God and God is a great teacher.

The one who has not knowledge, what knowledge he has will be taken away. How will it be taken away?


Mat 13:13 This is why I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.

Jesus uses the parables “this= verse 12, taking away†to take away knowledge. Why does he do it this way, because they do not see, nor hear, nor understand.

Mat 13:14 Indeed, in their case the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled that says: "'You will indeed hear but never understand, and you will indeed see but never perceive.

In their case “who’s case� The ones who do not see, hear or understand. They will NEVER understand, nor perceive.

Mat 13:15 For this people's heart has grown dull, and with their ears they can barely hear, and their eyes they have closed, lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears and understand with their heart and turn, and I would heal them.'

Lest they should see and hear and understand, Jesus would have to heal them in direct conflict with Isaiah, so he used parables so they could not and would not see, hear or understand.

Mat 13:16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see, and your ears, for they hear.

Blessed are the ones who see, hear and understand, as they are taught of God. The parables are used to impart more knowledge, to the ones knowledge has been given. In comparison to the one’s who have not knowledge and never understand, see, or hear in keeping with the prophecy of Isaiah.


Isa 6:8 And I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then I said, Here am I; send me.
Isa 6:9 And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not.
Isa 6:10 Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they sea with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and turn again, and be healed.
Isa 6:11 Then said I, Lord, how long? And he answered, Until cities be waste without inhabitant, and houses without man, and the land become utterly waste,
Isa 6:12 and Jehovah have removed men far away, and the forsaken places be many in the midst of the land.
Isa 6:13 And if there be yet a tenth in it, it also shall in turn be eaten up: as a terebinth, and as an oak, whose stock remaineth, when they are felled; so the holy seed is the stock thereof.

Peace to u,

Bill

 

[eddif]

Bill's statement
Lest they should see and hear and understand, Jesus would have to heal them in direct conflict with Isaiah, so he used parables so they could not and would not see, hear or understand.

Mat 13:16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see, and your ears, for they hear.

Blessed are the ones who see, hear and understand, as they are taught of God. The parables are used to impart more knowledge, to the ones knowledge has been given. In comparison to the one’s who have not knowledge and never understand, see, or hear in keeping with the prophecy of Isaiah.
++++++++++++++++++++++++

While I agree with most of the post I have a question about one statement about the disciples: understanding the parables to get more knowledge.

Jesus gave the close followers knowledge without parables. Matthew 5:1- ~7 Is almost void of parables as such. If there is a hint of a parable there is an explanation.

As far as I am concerned the disciples did not get the parables either. The disciples came to Jesus to find out how to understand the parable of the sower. Jesus told the disciples the answer just like in the Beatitudes.

If, IMHO, they were understanding parables, then they would have told Jesus how they had learned so much from the parable of the sower.

Church tradition says they learned by parables, but the example seems to show they did not.

After the coming of the Holy Spirit it seems that the church started to use hidden information to learn, but before that parables were a mystery (there are other examples where Jesus had to tell them plainly what he meant). If Jesus talked in figurative language the disciples missed it.

eddif​

 

[eddif]

Luke Re: Parables why., Matt 13 & Isa 6

I do not know if there will be more posters here, but a parable discussion was going on here:

http://www.christianforums.net/showthread.php?t=35702&highlight=eddif

I really am more into human body symbolism, but parables are close.

A lot of times the text will tell who the audience is. For instance: Luke 16:1
1 And he said also unto his disciples, There was a certain rich man, which had a steward; and the same was accused unto him that he had wasted his goods

He is talking to his disciples: so there might be an example, but the conversation is probably not in parable form (really hidden meaning).

The trick telling comes in Luke 16:14-15​

14 And the Pharisees also, who were covetous, heard all these things: and they derided him. 15 And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight

When 15:1 tells the Pharisees heard the conversation ---then did he switch to parables or not.

Talking to multitudes Jesus uses parables.
Talking to the disciples he does not use parables.

Matthew 5:1
1 And seeing the multitudes, he went up into a mountain: and when he was set, his disciples came unto him

In this verse you kind of scratch your head. But the Beatitudes are parable free till right at the end when they must be getting near the multitudes. Thus He must be talking to the disciples.

Kind of gets interesting telling at times. Some pharisees actually were not like all the rest.

eddif

 

[Sinthesis]

Parables are a type of Rorschach test. Many interpretations are possible, but they require a certain frame of mind, that can only be provided by the Holy Spirit, in order to arrive at a graceful interpretation.

 

[eddif]

Parables are a type of Rorschach test. Many interpretations are possible, but they require a certain frame of mind, that can only be provided by the Holy Spirit, in order to arrive at a graceful interpretation.

After I suggested the discussion come here, I also noticed this is a bible study thread. I hope we get it all sorted out with the love of God.


The OP of this thread made it about why Jesus used parables. I moved it slightly to how to identify parables. Mike reminds us we are not in the A&T Forum here.
If we get out of line the thread will be locked. If discussion gets heated we need to be in an Apologetics & Theology forum.

Ok a little test to see if Jesus is using the Rorschach method. The disciples asked Jesus about the parable of the sower. Jesus gave them one answer for the Parable.

Matthew 13:18
18 Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower.

Then Jesus sets about telling what each inkblot in the parable means. Jesus does not ask what the inkblot means to the disciples, but he sets about telling them the intrepretation of the parable of the sower.

The same thing happens in Mark 4:13-14
13 And he said unto them, Know ye not this parable? and how then will ye know all parables?
14 The sower soweth the word.

Jesus tells item by item what the parable symbols stand for.

The OP of this thread tells why Jesus used parables. Jesus used parables that contained hidden truth and it pretty much seems the disciples and others did not get the right answers. Jesus told the disciples what the parables meant.

If it had been a Rorschach test, I believe he would have asked them what the vague symbols stood for.

You are absolutely correct in saying the Holy Spirit is needed to unwind the meaning of parables. It is only after pentacost that empowerment for service came to the church. IMHO dreams and visions are a lot like the inkblots Rorschach used. Just instead of individual answers, we need to use scripture and revelation (dangerous word) to get the answers.

The jerk from Mississippi
eddif

 

[Sinthesis]

Not the Rorschach method in the technical sense, but in the way the same inkblot can look different to different people, or even the same person at different times. What you would want as a Christian is to understand the parable as Jesus intended; to see what Jesus sees in the inkblot. We today have a great advantage that was unavailable to the disciples at that particular time. Yet that doesn't negate our flawed human nature which allows us to be distracted and arrive at dischordant conclusions as to the significance of parables. What one sees in a parable can tell others something about ones religious viewpoint.

 

[eddif]

I think it does no harm to center a look at the parable of the sower for now. There are other parable examples for later.

The inkblots (if we will not be laughed off the forum for talking about them) are very structured specific creation facts in the parable of the sower. We (natural mankind) just tend to swim in confusion as we look at them.
1. Is telling us that the sower (real life planter taken out of his creation of seeds to the (highest spiritual reality).
2. Seeds are the Word of God to be planted in our ground.
3. The ground is the hearts of men (the natural pacemaker of the heart sets heart beats ---hinting at its processing power)
4. The highway will not support growth and seeds falling there will be devoured
5. Stony ground will not support the seeds making a plant that will live to be a plant that will bear other seeds. Spring up but wither away
6. Good ground has different abilites to produce fruit / seeds
7. According to the parables there can be great production of spiritual truth in our lives, if our hearts are born again.

We may see the whole process and attach our thoughts to it, but at creation the truth was there. I really think you are seeing the reality of it all.

Without the Holy Spirit opening our understanding, we just stumble around in a fog (though the whole of creation is speaking truths). Jesus knew that the Holy Spirit had not come yet, so he used parables to contain the truth but not be understood yet. I just have to read and believe he is God and could do it this way. I do not judge; I just accept.

eddif

 

[Broncobilly1972]

Jesus poured knowledge into the disciples for two to three years. They were not all called T the same time, once they Spirit was given that knowledge became a true understanding. Which Jesus foretold with His first miracle, water into wine.

 

[eddif]

Jesus poured knowledge into the disciples for two to three years. They were not all called T the same time, once they Spirit was given that knowledge became a true understanding. Which Jesus foretold with His first miracle, water into wine.

John 14:26
26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Thanks for that. I had never really thought about the Holy Spirit bringing so much out of the disciples memory. I do not know whether I thought they took good notes or what, but the length of some narrations they wrote and the detail was absolutely a miracle. Their understanding, guided by the Holy Spirit, was also great.

Dealing with symbolism takes the Holy Spirit to work out the details. Satan always tries to cause confusion and memory loss after a study starts, but with humbleness we can depend on the Holy Spirit working a miracle in our memory and our understanding in anything God is doing within us.

Nathanael is a good example of memory exactness.
John 1:50-51
50 Jesus answered and said unto him, Because I said unto thee, I saw thee under the fig tree, believest thou? thou shalt see greater things than these.
51 And he saith unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Hereafter ye shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man.

I do feel I missed something you were saying about the wine though. Care to open my Mississippi mind?

eddif

 

[Broncobilly1972]

Think about what you posted from John 1 and Nathanael resting under the fig tree, again highly symbolic. Remember what Adam and Eve did, they pulled leaves off of the fig tree. What happens to leaves when you pull them off of a tree, they did and wither. Wine, it's proven to be good for the heart, I'm not the giver of knowledge and understanding, all I can say is take a look at it in prayer. Christ poured knowledge in to the disciples that knowledge turned into understanding when the spirit was given. Study it chew on it for a while use what you find for nourishment, then be a sheep chew on it again and find more nourishment, chew the cud, we are supposed to be sheep under The Shepherd. Do we act like sheep?

 

[eddif]

I think we are at the same point. I just usually go here.

John 14:12
12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

Jesus used parables to conceal, but after the Holy Spirit came (because Jesus returned to the Father to intercede for us), we now have our understanding changed by the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit inside us allows us to use parables to teach truth. May we believe, that we may be that he who is able to do the greater works.

Church tradition says that Jesus used parables to teach, but scripture says he used parables the way the OP of this thread states. I just stress the fact that the disciples statements show they did not completely get the parables till after Pentacost.

Guided by scripture, Jesus, Holy Spirit, Creation of God-- we should begin to unwind the things hidden from the foundation of the earth.

I agree we:
Part the hoof - climb to high places. Break the chaff off truth.
Chew the cud - meditate on his word till we fully break it down and make a sacrafice of ourselves.

eddif

 

[Broncobilly1972]

Swine have a cloven hoof, two parts becoming one, something to stand on-marriage but married to who?

We may be in the same place. There is a difference in stall fed sheep and pasture fed sheep. The way you look at the parables says you are led to green pastures, and eat what you find while the shepherd keeps the wolves away. Farmers gather and feed only grain they themselves purchased. They make a merchandise out of raising sheep, with no real concern other than their own pocketbook.

 

[Broncobilly1972]

Guided by scripture, Jesus, Holy Spirit, Creation of God-- we should begin to unwind the things hidden from the foundation of the earth.

Just noticed you said that, very true. Matthew 10:26-27

 

[watchman333]

Fascinating subject. The Lord said:

I will open My mouth in parables; I will utter things that have been kept secret from the foundation of the world. Matthew 13.35

Then the Lord went on to explain to His disciples what the parable of the wheat and the tares really meant, for if they, we, cannot understand that parable it would be difficult for us to understand the whole of the Bible. We should understand that the foundation, as used here, is the Katabole in the Greek, Satan's overthrow in the world that then was, according to Peter. This is the overthrow of Genesis 1.2. Do you understand the secret our Beloved was teaching?

 

[eddif]

I guess I am so into Romans 1:19-20 that i spend my time there.
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. 20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

The physical creation speaks of who God is. Put the bible and science books on the same table and you have parallel stories, God created the physical to show what he is like, and it agrees with scripture.

I also tend toward Colossians 2:15
15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

This Colossians action is another open and revealed work. The death and resurrection is open before all men. The Romans passage is clearly seen information to all men. The information I try to deal with is opened by the Holy Spirit to all men who ask. I just do not get into anything that requires hidden knowledge.

eddif