Parousia....not Rapture

[Jay T]

Parousia = Christ's 2nd Coming

Matthew 24:3 "And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what [shall be] the sign of thy coming,(Parousia) and of the end of the world ?"

Matthew 24:27 "For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be".

Matthew 24:37 "But as the days of Noe [were], so shall also the coming (Parousia) of the Son of man be.

24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming (Parousia) of the Son of man be".

2 Thessalonians 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming (Parousia) of our Lord Jesus Christ, and [by] our gathering together unto him,

2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth [will let], until he be taken out of the way.

2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming (Parousia)"

From this one can see that Jesus Christ comes again......after the Anti-Christ......after the Mark of the Beast....ect.

 

[Geo]

Noah did not go through the flood - A called out people
Lot did not go through the fire - A called out people
The Bride of Christ will not go through the final hour of the world -
See will be preserved for the marriage supper of the Lamb

The wrath is exclusively for the world and wavering Christians
that haven't been ready. Do remember your first love - and repent.

Think of a marriage planer that would ask the bride to wait
outside the hall while listening to the turmoil on the streets
that nearly kills evryone on that street. The bride is not in need
of purification - she is already chosen. There is nothing now that
stands between the bride and the bridegroom. They will leave together.

(Revelation 18:23)  And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all
in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard
no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth;
for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.

God is currently restraining the Anti-Christ by His Holy Spirit
working in and through the Church (all the Spirit-reborn believers).
When this restrainer (The Church) is removed, then and only then
may the Anti-Christ be revealed so he can rise to power and confirm
the covenant with Israel. As long as that restrainer is in the world the
Anti-Christ cannot come to power. God’s restrainer is preventing that.
See 2 Thess 2:7

(Romans 5:9) Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we
shall be saved from wrath through him.

(1 Thessalonians 1:10) And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom
he raised from the dead, [even] Jesus, which delivered us from
the wrath to come.

(Luke 21:36) Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be
accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to
pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

(1 Thessalonians 5:9) For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but
to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ.

(Revelation 3:10) Because thou hast kept the word of my patience,
I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall
come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

 

[Vic C.]

Hi Geo,

I gather from your post above you are assuming a Pre tribulation stance? Please correct me if I am wrong.

Before I continue, let me say I believe wrath throughout the Bible is reserved for God and that tribulation, especially the Great Tribulation is, for the most part, the work of Satan/antichrist.

The wrath is exclusively for the world and wavering Christians
that haven't been ready. Do remember your first love - and repent.

The 'mark' comes before the Wrath. A "wavering Christian" can do one of two things. Either he/she will refrain from taking the mark or he/she will receive the mark, which will then seal their fate. Just as in the days of Lot or Noah, there will be no second chance for them.

(Romans 5:9) Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we
shall be saved from wrath through him.

Makes no mention of being saved from the trials and tribulations of antichrist. It say that the ones justified by His blood shall be saved from the wrath. (wrath of God)

(1 Thessalonians 1:10) And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom
he raised from the dead, [even] Jesus, which delivered us from
the wrath to come.

Same response as above.

(1 Thessalonians 5:9) For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but
to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ.

Again, same answer as above.

(Revelation 3:10) Because thou hast kept the word of my patience,
I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall
come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

This tell us the church of Philadelphia (the faithful church) will be protected (or guarded) from the Tribulation of antichrist. There is no mention of removal here, as some may suggest.

http://www.preceptaustin.org/1_peter_13 ... ED%20TEREO

 

[Vic C.]

God is currently restraining the Anti-Christ by His Holy Spirit
working in and through the Church (all the Spirit-reborn believers).
When this restrainer (The Church) is removed, then and only then
may the Anti-Christ be revealed so he can rise to power and confirm
the covenant with Israel. As long as that restrainer is in the world the
Anti-Christ cannot come to power. God’s restrainer is preventing that.
See 2 Thess 2:7

I have a different take on this altogether. The Spirit indwells the believer, correct? If the church is "caught up" before the Tribulation (pre trib), He is already removed, giving antichrist free reign over the... well it can't be the saints. According to the Word of God, there is no mention of the Spirit returning. So who is to witness to all these supposed "Tribulation Saints" who are supposedly 'saved' during the Great tribulation? Remember, it is the Spirit that allows us bears witness of Jesus.

I believe from the Word of God that the saints are still here during the Great Tribulation, along with the Spirit. I believe it is not the Spirit that restrains, but Michael.

Dan 11:45 And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him.
Dan 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

So I don't have to type this out again, here is an excerpt from a post I did about 1 1/2 years ago.

Now who is this restrainer? It is not the Holy Spirit or the government; it is Michael, the Archangel. These facts may clear thing up. Michael is known by Jewish and Christians scholars as having a very special relationship to Israel. A guardian relationship.

Dan 10:12 Then said he unto me, Fear not, Daniel: for from the first day that thou didst set thine heart to understand, and to chasten thyself before thy God, thy words were heard, and I am come for thy words.
Dan 10:13 But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia...

...Dan 10:20 Then said he, Knowest thou wherefore I come unto thee? and now will I return to fight with the prince of Persia: and when I am gone forth, lo, the prince of Grecia shall come.
Dan 10:21 But I will show thee that which is noted in the scripture of truth: and there is none that holdeth with me in these things, but Michael your prince.

Daniel's name means, "Who is like God?" That is in contrast to Satan, who wishes to be "like the Most High".

Also, Revelation 12 tells of a war that occurs in Heaven.

Rev 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
Rev 12:8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven...
...Rev 12:13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

I stated in another post that this woman represents Israel. The nation that eventually yielded up Christ to the world.... The Bible tells us that it is Michael who will be 'taken out of the way'.

Dan 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there
was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

... the phrase 'stand up' in the above verse literally means 'stand still'. (or be firm. One is firm when they are stanting still)

When does this occur? Lets look at the verse before 12:1.

Dan 11:45 And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him.

This refers to the Anti-christ. And what about this palace between the seas, in the glorious mountain? It could only refer to Jerusalem, which sits between the Mediterranean and Dead seas. It occurs when the Temple is desecrated, which happens in the middle of Daniel's 70th. week. In Jude, there is also a reference to Michael, referring to his 'guardian' status toward Israel.

Jude 1:9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee....

"For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way."

This verse affirms what Daniel said in 12:1.

 

[PHIL121]

Hi Geo,


The 'mark' comes before the Wrath. A "wavering Christian" can do one of two things. Either he/she will refrain from taking the mark or he/she will receive the mark, which will then seal their fate. Just as in the days of Lot or Noah, there will be no second chance for them.

I think it's also worth noting that if you have a post-Trib Rapture view, that some will be 'sealed' during the Tribulation. There is ome debate as to whether this 'sealing' is reserved for Jews or whther it will also be available to Gentiles.

 

[Vic C.]

I think it's also worth noting that if you have a post-Trib Rapture view, that some will be 'sealed' during the Tribulation. There is ome debate as to whether this 'sealing' is reserved for Jews or whther it will also be available to Gentiles.

I believe the Great Tribulation and The Wrath of God (the Lord's Day) are two different events. I think Post-Trib should really be called Post-Wrath. :

 

[PHIL121]

I believe the Great Tribulation and The Wrath of God (the Lord's Day) are two different events. I think Post-Trib should really be called Post-Wrath. :

Having looked at that diagram you posted earlier, I guess I can understand why you want to set your view apart from the post-tribulation view. You believe the rapture will occur halfway between the the rise of the anti-christ and the Finla Judgement, correct?

 

[Vic C.]

I believe the Great Tribulation and The Wrath of God (the Lord's Day) are two different events. I think Post-Trib should really be called Post-Wrath. :

Having looked at that diagram you posted earlier, I guess I can understand why you want to set your view apart from the post-tribulation view. You believe the rapture will occur halfway between the the rise of the anti-christ and the Finla Judgement, correct?

LOL, I was just throwing out a post with a little humor to keep things rolling, but since you asked... 8-)

I believe it happens somewhere between here...

Revelation 6:17

and here...

Revelation 7:9

Revelation 8:1 is where the Wrath begins. The beauty is, whether the events in Revelation is a literal seven years or some of it has been happenning over the last 2,000 years, it is still Pre-Wrath.

:angel:

 

[Geo]

I'll tell you the exact time: "In such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

Hi Vic, : "I believe from the Word of God that the saints are still here
during the Great Tribulation, along with the Spirit. I believe it is
not the Spirit that restrains, but Michael. "

I think not. The Spirit is omnipresent, tribulation saints are still in the Spirit.

However, now power HAS BEEN GIVEN to anti-christ to overcome them.

When it has be "GIVEN to him" indicates it was not previously in his possession.

Revelation 13:7  And it was given unto him to make war with the saints,
and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues,
and nations.

You need to understand, currently Satan can tempt us, but not overcome us.

He is powerfull, but he currently DOES NOT have the power to conquer
a Christian that is in communion with the Father through Christ

Any person that is possessed by the devil can be set free by us,
but not vise versa. Everyone that stands firm in Christ cannot be
overcome, except during Revelation 13:7

Now think for yourself:
1)To preserve the bride of Christ AND 2) To make war with the saints,
and to overcome them.

This is in conflict with each other, unless God wants the bride of Christ
be overcome by the Anti-Christ.

 

[PHIL121]

LOL, I was just throwing out a post with a little humor to keep things rolling, but since you asked... 8-)

I believe it happens somewhere between here...

Revelation 6:17

and here...

Revelation 7:9

Revelation 8:1 is where the Wrath begins. The beauty is, whether the events in Revelation is a literal seven years or some of it has been happenning over the last 2,000 years, it is still Pre-Wrath.

:angel:

Interesting...yet earlier you said...

The 'mark' comes before the Wrath. A "wavering Christian" can do one of two things. Either he/she will refrain from taking the mark or he/she will receive the mark, which will then seal their fate.

Yet the mark of the Beast isn't mentioned until Rev 13

And what about the 144,000 mentioned in Rev 14:1-5. Do you consider them the same ones mentioned in Rev 7 ?

 

[cj]

Interesting...yet earlier you said...

The 'mark' comes before the Wrath. A "wavering Christian" can do one of two things. Either he/she will refrain from taking the mark or he/she will receive the mark, which will then seal their fate.

Yet the mark of the Beast isn't mentioned until Rev 13

And what about the 144,000 mentioned in Rev 14:1-5. Do you consider them the same ones mentioned in Rev 7 ?

Good catch.


Interesting also is the debate of which restrains, the Spirit or Michael.


See, the Spirit is God,..... Michael is a created being.

The truth is, Michael is incapable of anything unless empowered by God.

It is God Himself who restrains Satan in His economy; and the scripture does not say that the one restraining is removed, but says that the one "goes out of the way."


Believers will never take the mark of the beast as the Lord will not lose one of His. He told us this much. But many believers will be killed during the time of the great tribulation, not all though.

In Matthew we can see where the Lord's coming is over a period and that this period begins with His coming as a thief in the night, meaning in a hidden way, and then ends with His being revealed like lightening, something that all men can and will see.

It is at the beginning that the stronger part of the Church will be taken (as an aspect of their reward for overcoming in the Lord.)

Revelation 12:5, "And she brought forth a son, a man-child, who is to shepherd all the nations with an iron rod; and her child was caught up to God and to His throne."

To be caught up is to be raptured. The rapture of the man-child differs from that of the majority of the believers, which is mentioned in 1 Thes. 4:17. There, the majority of the believers are raptured (1) to the air, and (2) at the last trumpet (1 Cor. 15:52; 1 Thes. 4:16), which is the seventh trumpet (11:15). But here, the man-child is raptured (1) to the throne of God, and (2) before the one thousand two hundred and sixty days, which is the time of the great tribulation of three and a half years (forty-two months, v. 14; 13:5; 11:2), beginning from the sixth seal, before the fifth trumpet (9:1).

Cross reference with the following...

Revelation 2:26, "And he who overcomes and he who keeps My works until the end,....... to him........ I will give authority over the nations;..... And he will shepherd them with an iron rod,........ as vessels of pottery are broken in pieces, as I also have received from My Father;"



The bible gives us all the answers, we just need to know where to look; and for that we need to be in our spirit.


In love,
cj

 

[Vic C.]

(note-The following post is not me being stubbern or trying to be a wiseguy. I was fascinated with the whole pre trib thing since the late 70's. Though it was not based on Biblical knowledge, but rather popular belief. Since I started studying this from a Biblical stantpoint a couple of years ago, I have found I can't substantiate this Biblically.

So please don't take my post in a 'negative' way... thanks)

Interesting...yet earlier you said...

The 'mark' comes before the Wrath. A "wavering Christian" can do one of two things. Either he/she will refrain from taking the mark or he/she will receive the mark, which will then seal their fate.

Yet the mark of the Beast isn't mentioned until Rev 13

And what about the 144,000 mentioned in Rev 14:1-5. Do you consider them the same ones mentioned in Rev 7 ?

Good catch.

What catch? There is no catch here. Revelation is not in chronological order. When we get to Rev. 12, we are brought back to about midway through Daniel's 70th. week. (that is, end of 4th./beginning of 5th. seal) This continues to about Ch. 15, where it picks up again. I will elaborate on this more when I get home, since most of my notes are there.

Interesting also is the debate of which restrains, the Spirit or Michael.

See, the Spirit is God,..... Michael is a created being.

The truth is, Michael is incapable of anything unless empowered by God.

This has no bearing on Michael's ability to restrain, especially if he is given the ability to restrain from God Himself. You limit the power of God if you say this is not possible.

It is God Himself who restrains Satan in His economy; and the scripture does not say that the one restraining is removed, but says that the one "goes out of the way."

Glad you brought that up cj; that was part of the point I was trying to make. Just do yourselves a favor and do a study on Daniel 12:1, particually on the meaning of the phrase "stand up". Also read Daniel 12:1 and the surronding verses. Look at it within it's context, paying attention to 11:45 and 12:2.

Look at all this without the preconceived notions you already have. Let God's word speak for itself. That's all I can ask of you. I can't convince you of anything. That's God's job.

To be caught up is to be raptured. The rapture of the man-child differs from that of the majority of the believers, which is mentioned in 1 Thes. 4:17. There, the majority of the believers are raptured (1) to the air, and (2) at the last trumpet (1 Cor. 15:52; 1 Thes. 4:16), which is the seventh trumpet (11:15). But here, the man-child is raptured (1) to the throne of God, and (2) before the one thousand two hundred and sixty days, which is the time of the great tribulation of three and a half years (forty-two months, v. 14; 13:5; 11:2), beginning from the sixth seal, before the fifth trumpet (9:1).

You will have a hard time convincing many of us that there are multiple raptures. I am also pretty sure from the research I have done that the "trump of God" is not the seventh 'angelic' trumpet of Revelation. I also don't believe there's a secret, pre-trib rapture, as I stated at the top.

I do appreciate your input her cj. I don't see you here that much.

 

[noblej6]

Hi Forum,

Someone here mentioned that Revelation is not in chrono order. Has anyone looked into this.

In Rev 4:1 John looks to heaven and the door is open,,,already, About chapter 19 John watches heaven open???/ What if anything has gone on here?

Anybody got a quick answer for this?

Noble6

 

[Vic C.]

Hi Forum,

Someone here mentioned that Revelation is not in chrono order. Has anyone looked into this.

In Rev 4:1 John looks to heaven and the door is open,,,already, About chapter 19 John watches heaven open???/ What if anything has gone on here?

Anybody got a quick answer for this?

Noble6

LOL, you forgot my name already? I'm not the only one who thinks it's not all in chronological order.

I said... "I will elaborate on this more when I get home, since most of my notes are there." For now, I will post this up...

At the beginning of Chapter 12 is a “timeless†reference to Israel and to Satan. Then the narrative returns again to the midpoint of the 70th Week (or just prior to it), depicting events in heaven and on earth at that time. In the remainder of Chapter 12 and in Chapters 13 and 14, events continue, in chronological order, through the end of the final seven-year period. Then, events in heaven and on earth during a brief (30-day) period, following the end of the Week, are depicted in Chapters 15 and 16.

http://www.tedmontgomery.com/bblovrvw/C_12a.html

I'm not sure if ch. 19 is out of order. It appears as if John is witnessing events from eath again. I come to this conclusion by reading the few chapters before it. I couldn't tell you right now where it says or implies John returns to terra firma. 8-)

 

[cj]

(note-The following post is not me being stubbern or trying to be a wiseguy. I was fascinated with the whole pre trib thing since the late 70's. Though it was not based on Biblical knowledge, but rather popular belief. Since I started studying this from a Biblical stantpoint a couple of years ago, I have found I can't substantiate this Biblically.

So please don't take my post in a 'negative' way... thanks)

Everythings cool on my side Vic. Either I know or I don't, the main thing is God does.


That said, I found this statement of your's interesting......

"I was fascinated with the whole pre trib thing since the late 70's."

When related to this.....

"Look at all this without the preconceived notions you already have. Let God's word speak for itself. That's all I can ask of you. I can't convince you of anything. That's God's job."

Given your long fasination, I can't help but wonder which of us has the stronger notions.

I've been fasinated with nothing regarding the matter of the rapture; its hard enough just considering my living and being remaining in the Lord on a moment by moment basis.

But I know this,.... the same God that saves us on a moment by moment basis is the one who gave us the content of the bible. And He is the same one who lives in our regenerated spirit.

This being the case, if for a valid reason I need the truth concerning the matter of the rapture all I need do is ask this God who dwells in my spirit for the answer.

Jesus did say that we have not because we ask not. He never said we have not because we have not studied enough.

But that's just me after a lot of time and energy spent on studying God; I guess I just got tired and gave up looking so hard. Funny though, that's about the time God showed me how "easy" it is to be one with Him.

Kinda like a be still and know I am God, thing.

What catch? There is no catch here. Revelation is not in chronological order. When we get to Rev. 12, we are brought back to about midway through Daniel's 70th. week. (that is, end of 4th./beginning of 5th. seal) This continues to about Ch. 15, where it picks up again. I will elaborate on this more when I get home, since most of my notes are there.

Okay, maybe I misunderstood wat you were saying, so I'll read what you post.

This has no bearing on Michael's ability to restrain, especially if he is given the ability to restrain from God Himself. You limit the power of God if you say this is not possible.

Didn't say it did, all I said was that it is God who restrains, not Michael.

Saying this in no way places a limit on God, it simply places the spotlight on the source of the restraining power.

Glad you brought that up cj; that was part of the point I was trying to make.

I guess it was not clear to me.

Just do yourselves a favor and do a study on Daniel 12:1, particually on the meaning of the phrase "stand up". Also read Daniel 12:1 and the surronding verses. Look at it within it's context, paying attention to 11:45 and 12:2.

Why not simply say what you have.

Look at all this without the preconceived notions you already have. Let God's word speak for itself. That's all I can ask of you. I can't convince you of anything. That's God's job.

Again, just speak.

See, God desires to use men as light in this darkened world.

If you have light, don't hide in under a barrel and tell God to shine His light. Cause while He's taking away the light you consider belongs to you, He'll be telling you you should not have hidden that which was given to you for others.

You will have a hard time convincing many of us that there are multiple raptures.

I don't need to convince you, just remind you.

The iron is already in you Vic, it just needs iron to sharpen it.

I am also pretty sure from the research I have done that the "trump of God" is not the seventh 'angelic' trumpet of Revelation.

Wonderful, but "pretty sure" holds very little meat in it. Tells us what you have come to know.

I also don't believe there's a secret, pre-trib rapture, as I stated at the top.

That's fine, but again, explain why.

I do appreciate your input her cj. I don't see you here that much.

Light concerning the matter of tribulation is not really a day to day need for the saints so I tend to stay more in other areas. I was just surfing through the boards when I came across this one and my interest peaked.

We'll see what happens.


In love,
cj

 

[Solo]

I think it's also worth noting that if you have a post-Trib Rapture view, that some will be 'sealed' during the Tribulation. There is ome debate as to whether this 'sealing' is reserved for Jews or whther it will also be available to Gentiles.

I believe the Great Tribulation and The Wrath of God (the Lord's Day) are two different events. I think Post-Trib should really be called Post-Wrath. :

That is a true understanding of the gathering of the saints to Jesus. Some that are pre-tribulationists get pretty heady in arguing against any other "rapture" other that theirs, but the Bible contains more to the pre-wrath "rapture", than it does the pre-trib rapture.

Another thing is that the bride of Christ is revealed in Revelations 21, and it is not just the Church. The bride of Christ, the wife of the Lamb is all of those that are written in the book of life.

 

[cj]

Another thing is that the bride of Christ is revealed in Revelations 21, and it is not just the Church. The bride of Christ, the wife of the Lamb is all of those that are written in the book of life.

This is not true.

The bride remains with the Husband, yet there are those who have their names in the book of life but live outside (away) from the city where the Husband dwells.

Additionally, note that there are some who must eat the leaves of the tree of life. Those who are of the bride of Christ have no need to eat these leaves since they are constituted one with the life they contain.

In love,
cj

 

[Vic C.]

Everythings cool on my side Vic. Either I know or I don't, the main thing is God does.

Amen to that.

That said, I found this statement of your's interesting......

"I was fascinated with the whole pre trib thing since the late 70's."

When related to this.....

"Look at all this without the preconceived notions you already have. Let God's word speak for itself. That's all I can ask of you. I can't convince you of anything. That's God's job."

Given your long fasination, I can't help but wonder which of us has the stronger notions.

I gues that was not the right word to use. A brief history of my beliefs may clear things up. Roman Catholic for the first 18 years of my life. A falling out with that church over things I considered hypocrisy. Never quite lost faith, but didn't get back to church until the age of 43. Was exposed to the likes of Hal Lindsey, Tim Lahaye, etc. Accepted their view without investigating. Figured they knew more than me, so they must be right. Bacame saved in December, 1999. Started studying the Bible. Jumped in head first, so to speak. I often try to walk before I can crawl. LOL Was indroduced to many eschatological views, including what is known as "Per Wrath". Found it to be the one I best harmonize with scripture without rearranging or allegorizing scripture.

But that's just me after a lot of time and energy spent on studying God; I guess I just got tired and gave up looking so hard. Funny though, that's about the time God showed me how "easy" it is to be one with Him.

Kinda like a be still and know I am God, thing.

Great verse, cj.

What catch? There is no catch here. Revelation is not in chronological order. When we get to Rev. 12, we are brought back to about midway through Daniel's 70th. week. (that is, end of 4th./beginning of 5th. seal) This continues to about Ch. 15, where it picks up again. I will elaborate on this more when I get home, since most of my notes are there.

Okay, maybe I misunderstood wat you were saying, so I'll read what you post.

I'm no teacher, persay, my posts are a labor of love. Yes, I post as a means of sharing what God has revealed to me, but I also do it because it helps me commit things to memory. Even at that, my short term memory fails me as I get older. LOL

This has no bearing on Michael's ability to restrain, especially if he is given the ability to restrain from God Himself. You limit the power of God if you say this is not possible.

Didn't say it did, all I said was that it is God who restrains, not Michael.

Saying this in no way places a limit on God, it simply places the spotlight on the source of the restraining power.

A misunderstanding on my part. Please excuse me.

Just do yourselves a favor and do a study on Daniel 12:1, particually on the meaning of the phrase "stand up". Also read Daniel 12:1 and the surronding verses. Look at it within it's context, paying attention to 11:45 and 12:2.

Why not simply say what you have.

I have. See my earlier post in this thread. Also, see this. It is from a study I did. I took the liberty of putting a Q & A into my own words, as I understood the information. (second question down) http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopic.php?t=7193

Look at all this without the preconceived notions you already have. Let God's word speak for itself. That's all I can ask of you. I can't convince you of anything. That's God's job.

Again, just speak.

See, God desires to use men as light in this darkened world.

If you have light, don't hide in under a barrel and tell God to shine His light. Cause while He's taking away the light you consider belongs to you, He'll be telling you you should not have hidden that which was given to you for others.

Yikes! "Search found 501 matches" <--- That is me from the End Times forum alone. Most of them, if memory serves me, are on the topic of prophecy and Pre-wrath.

You will have a hard time convincing many of us that there are multiple raptures.

I don't need to convince you, just remind you.

The iron is already in you Vic, it just needs iron to sharpen it.

Remind me of what?

I am also pretty sure from the research I have done that the "trump of God" is not the seventh 'angelic' trumpet of Revelation.

Wonderful, but "pretty sure" holds very little meat in it. Tells us what you have come to know.

http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopi ... ump#205567
http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopi ... ump#188727 (and the fews posts after it)

I do appreciate your input her cj. I don't see you here that much.

Light concerning the matter of tribulation is not really a day to day need for the saints so I tend to stay more in other areas. I was just surfing through the boards when I came across this one and my interest peaked.

We'll see what happens.

In love,
cj

I agree. It is a non essential doctrine, but studying it has been an eye-opener for me to many parts of the Bible I may have never paid much attention.

See ya,
Vic

 

[Solo]

Another thing is that the bride of Christ is revealed in Revelations 21, and it is not just the Church. The bride of Christ, the wife of the Lamb is all of those that are written in the book of life.

This is not true.

The bride remains with the Husband, yet there are those who have their names in the book of life but live outside (away) from the city where the Husband dwells.

Additionally, note that there are some who must eat the leaves of the tree of life. Those who are of the bride of Christ have no need to eat these leaves since they are constituted one with the life they contain.

In love,
cj

cj,
It is true. The scripture in Revelation 21 reveals the Bride, and it is after the New Heavens and New Earth. The Bride is all of those Jews and Gentiles both Old Testament and New Testament Saints who have their name written in the Book of Life.

Some in the Church have a pretty selfish attitude about the Bride of Christ and they believe that the Bride is only the Church. There is no representation in the Scriptures that backs this attitude.
No where in the New Testament is the Church called the Bride of Christ; But the Bride and Wife of Christ is shown to be New Jerusalem in Revelation 21.

1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. 4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. 5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful. 6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. 7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. 8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife. 10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, 11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal; 12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel: 13 On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates. 14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb. 15 And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof. 16 And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal. 17 And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel. 18 And the building of the wall of it was of jasper: and the city was pure gold, like unto clear glass. 19 And the foundations of the wall of the city were garnished with all manner of precious stones. The first foundation was jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, a chalcedony; the fourth, an emerald; 20 The fifth, sardonyx; the sixth, sardius; the seventh, chrysolite; the eighth, beryl; the ninth, a topaz; the tenth, a chrysoprasus; the eleventh, a jacinth; the twelfth, an amethyst. 21 And the twelve gates were twelve pearls; every several gate was of one pearl: and the street of the city was pure gold, as it were transparent glass. 22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it. 23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof. 24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it. 25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there. 26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it. 27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life. Revelation 21:1-27

 

[cj]

I agree. It is a non essential doctrine, but studying it has been an eye-opener for me to many parts of the Bible I may have never paid much attention.

See ya,
Vic

Always good to have a bit of background to the saints we're speaking with. Everyone has a story that is real.

You are right though, the book of Revelations is a must-know to go deeper into the Lord.

How is this for an introduction....

"As the last book of the Bible, Revelation is the conclusion, completion, and consummation of the entire divine revelation, the whole Bible. The seeds of most of the truths of the divine revelation were sown in Genesis, the first book of the Bible. The growth of all these seeds is progressively developed in the succeeding books, especially in the books of the New Testament, and the harvest is reaped in the book of Revelation. Hence, most of the things covered in this book are not absolutely new but are in the preceding books and are perfected in this book, the focus of which is the unique, ultimate revelation of Christ, the particular, consummate testimony of Jesus, and the universal, eternal economy of God.

This book is a book of prophecy  not prophecy merely in words but in visions revealed to the seer. In the eyes of God, all the things prophesied in this book have already taken place. Thus, all were shown to the seer, vision after vision. Therefore, most of the verbs used in this book are in the past tense.

The whole Bible reveals Christ; the book of Revelation especially, as the conclusion, completion, and consummation of the whole Bible, is "the revelation of Jesus Christ." Although this book also reveals many other things, the focus of its revelation is Christ. Several aspects concerning Christ, such as the vision of Christ as the High Priest in the midst of the churches, caring for them in love yet with a judging attitude (vv. 13-16), the vision of Him as the Lion-Lamb in the midst of God's throne and of the four living creatures and in the midst of the twenty-four elders of the universe, opening the seven seals of God's universal administration (5:1--6:1), and the vision of Him as "another strong Angel" coming down out of heaven to take possession of the earth (10:1-8; 18:1), etc., were never unveiled as they are in this book........

 The revelation of this book is composed mainly of signs, i.e., symbols with spiritual significance, such as the seven lampstands, signifying the churches; the seven stars, signifying the messengers of the churches (v. 20), etc. Even the New Jerusalem is a sign, signifying the ultimate consummation of God's economy (chs. 21--22). This book, then, is a book of signs through which the revelation is made known to us.

John's Gospel is a book of signs signifying how Christ came to be our life to produce the church, His bride. John's Revelation is a book of signs showing how Christ is now caring for the church and how He is coming to judge and possess the earth and bring the church, His bride, into God's full economy......

 On one hand, this book gives us the revelation of Christ, and on the other hand, it shows us the testimony of Jesus, which is the church. It presents to us the revealed Christ and the testifying church. The lampstands in ch. 1, the great multitude of the redeemed in ch. 7, the bright woman with her man-child in ch. 12, the harvest with its firstfruits in ch. 14, the overcomers on the sea of glass in ch. 15, the bride ready for marriage in ch. 19, and the New Jerusalem in chs. 21 and 22 are all the testimony of Jesus. This testimony of Jesus is the spirit  the substance, the disposition, and the characteristic  of the prophecy (19:10).

Christ is the Witness of God (1:5), the testimony and the expression of God. The church is the testimony and the expression of Christ. As such, the church is the reproduction of the testimony and the expression of God in Christ.....

The revelation in this book is in the nature of prophecy. Most of the visions refer to things to come. Even the seven epistles to the seven churches in chs. 2 and 3, in the sense of their being signs, are prophecies concerning the church on earth in the period until the Lord's coming back."



Given the above, if one believes it is the truth about the content of this book, I'd say its certainly important to become familiar with its content.

But a word of caution........ stay on the line of Christ or one could end up like some of those end-time fuddy-duddys you mentioned in your post above.

They were looking for something else out of this book. Just look for Christ and the rest will spontaneouly come into view.

In love,
cj