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Particular Redemption/Limited Atonement

JM

Member
Many 'Grace Doctrine' (what you call calvinist) believers will tell you, we see this doctrine in the Bible and have not contrived a plot or plain to subvert the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Scriptural Support:
Exodus 4:21, 14:4, 8, 17; Deuteronomy 2:30, 9:4-7, 29:4; Joshua 11:19; 1 Samuel 2:25, 3:14; 2 Samuel 17:14; Psalm 105:25; Proverbs 15:8, 26, 28:9; Isaiah 53:11; Jeremiah 24:7; Matthew 1:21, 11:25-27, 13:10-15, 44-46, 15:13, 20:28, 22:14, 24:22; Luke 8:15, 13:23, 19:42; John 5:21, 6:37, 44, 65, 8:42-47, 10:11, 14, 26-28, 11:49-53, 12:37-41, 13:1, 18, 15:16, 17:2, 6, 9, 18:9, 37; Acts 2:39, 13:48, 18:27, 19:9; Romans 9:10-26, 11:5-10; 1 Corinthians 1:18-31, 2:14; 2 Corinthians 2:14-16, 4:3; Galatians 1:3; Ephesians 2:1-10; Colossians 2:13; 2 Thessalonians 2:9-14; 2 Timothy 2:20, 25; Titus 2:14; Hebrews 1:3, 14, 2:9, 16 (cp. Galatians 3:29, 4:28-31), 9:28; 1 Peter 2:8; 2 Peter 2:7; 1 John 4:6; Jude 1, 14; Revelation 13:8, 17:8, 15-18, 21:27.

Charles H. Spurgeon had these words to say about limited atonement (from his sermon, "The Mission of the Son of Man"):

"Now, some people love the doctrine of 'universal atonement' because they say it is so beautiful. It is a lovely idea that 'Christ should have died for all men'; it commends itself, they say, to the instincts of humanity; there is something in it full of joy and beauty.

"I admit there is; but beauty may be often associated with falsehood.

"There is much which I might well admire in the theory of 'universal redemption' but let me just tell you what this supposition necessarily involves. If Christ on His cross intended to save every man, then He intended to save those who were damned before He died; because if this doctrine (that He died for all men) is true, He died for some that were in hell before He came into this world, for doubtless there were myriads there that had been cast away.

"Once again, if it were Christ's intention to save all men, how deplorably has He been disappointed! For we have His own evidence that there is a lake that burns with fire and brimstone, and into that pit must be cast some of the very people, who according to that theory, were bought with His blood!

"To think that my Savior died for men in hell, seems a supposition too horrible for me to imagine. That He was the substitute for the sons of men, and that God having first punished the substitute, punished these same men again, seems to me to conflict with any idea of justice.

"That Christ should offer an atonement and satisfaction for the sins of all men, and that afterwards, some of those very men should be punished for the same sins which Christ had already atoned for, seems to me, to be the most marvelous monstrosity that ever could have been imputed to Saturn, to Janus, aye, to the god of the Thugs, or the most diabolical heathen demons!

"God forbid that we should ever think thus of Jehovah, the just and wise."


God bless,

jason
 
Jason said:
"There is much which I might well admire in the theory of 'universal redemption' but let me just tell you what this supposition necessarily involves. If Christ on His cross intended to save every man, then He intended to save those who were damned before He died; because if this doctrine (that He died for all men) is true, He died for some that were in hell before He came into this world, for doubtless there were myriads there that had been cast away.

Spurgeon's logic fails in believing that many were cast into a tormenting hell before Christ. It doesn't make any sense for man to be condemned and suffering before Christ pays the price. Before Christ, no one is in torment but resting in their graves. Man cannot be 'alive' in any fashion in punishment after death before Christ's dying on the cross abolished death for us.

Spurgeon's argument according to the scripture's view on death, doesn't negate universal atonement at all. For all die and rest in their graves. All have had the chance to accept God's saving grace in their lifetime. Those will be ultimately lost at the end because Christ abolished death for the righteous and gave them eternal life and because of that, the righteous dead will resurrect to life, the wicked will not. However, the universalist can still claim that Christ's death and resurrection apply to ALL and all will be reconciled.

Had Christ not come and died and rose, ALL in their graves would have been lost (1 Corinthians 15:16-18).
 
Notwithstanding Spurgeon's excellent reputation and obvious erudition, this is one of your weaker posts, Jason - and they are usually robust.

Not to diminish his legacy (even some of Pauls'writings likely didn't stand the test of time) but I think you would have done better on your own.
 
Dean said:
Notwithstanding Spurgeon's excellent reputation and obvious erudition, this is one of your weaker posts, Jason - and they are usually robust.

Not to diminish his legacy (even some of Pauls'writings likely didn't stand the test of time) but I think you would have done better on your own.

Dean, we should go over each Scripture I listed, maybe you could show me the errors of my ways...brother?
 
See other string - - much better use of time, agreed.

I could post some eloquent, baroque George McDonald sermon on how God is better than we imagine, not worse, and we shouldn't blaspheme him as sadistic...but I'm not sure that really advances the conversation.
 
Dean said:
See other string - - much better use of time, agreed.

I could post some eloquent, baroque George McDonald sermon on how God is better than we imagine, not worse, and we shouldn't blaspheme him as sadistic...but I'm not sure that really advances the conversation.

You could post a sermon, someone elses thoughts and ideas...see a trend...but you'd never want to talk about Scripture... :smt064
 
Jason, a.k.a. Scofield:

Search= Limited=

Yea, they turned back and tempted God, and limited the Holy One of Israel. -Psl. 78:41-


http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyB ... anguage=en

Limited= Tavah=

To pain, wound, trouble, cause pain probable meaning.

Search: Limited Atonement=

Your search query for 'limited atonement ' did not return any results. Please modify your search query and try again.

Plan A

Therefore as by the offence of one judgement came upon all mankind to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of One the free gift came upon all mankind unto justification of life.

Plan B (The New Radical Unbelievers Bible)

Therefore as by the offence of one judgement came upon some of mankind to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of One the free gift came upon some of mankind unto justification of life.
 
God is described as the Savior of all men (1 Timothy 4:10) , so evidently, this includes those who are supposedly burning in eternal hell or those who have supposedly burning in an eternal hell since the beginning of time. It was God's good pleasure to reconcile all to Himself (Colossians 1) so evidently, He is interested in reconciling those who are supposedly in the burning eternal hell.

Now, are we to believe that God, who has all power, will not accomplish His purposes, or that He is a liar? If these individuals were intentionally excluded from God's salvation, due to God's predetermined plan to save a handful, then how is it that He is described as their Savior ??? bless.
 
Search: Limited Atonement=

Your search query for 'limited atonement ' did not return any results. Please modify your search query and try again.

Nonsense! Plan B: The New Radical Unbelievers Bible

He, the Lord Jesus Christ, is the atonement for our sins, and for our sins only, and not for the sins of the whole world.
 
Search: Limited Atonement=

Your search query for 'limited atonement ' did not return any results. Please modify your search query and try again.

Plan B: The New Radical Unbelievers Bible

He, the Lord Jesus Christ, is the atonement for our sins, and for our sins only, and not for the sins of the whole world.

Atonement (At one ment)= Katallage=

Adjustment of a difference.

Reconciliation.

Restoration to favour.

http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Gre ... ersion=kjv

Katallage Rooted In Katallasso

Katallasso=


To change/ exchange.

To reconcile those who are at variance.

To return to favour/ to receive into favour.

To be reconciled.

Therefore as by the offence of one judgement came upon all mankind to condemnation;

Even so

By the righteousness of One the free gift came upon all/pas mankind unto justification of life. For as by one man's disobedience polus were made sinners

So

By the obedience of One shall polus be made righteous.
 
The Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister and to surrender His life a ransom for polus/many. -Matt. 20:28- Mark 10:45-

For there is one God and one intermediary between God and men--the man Christ Jesus who gave Himself a ransom for pas/all, to be testified in due time. -1 Timothy 2:6-

All= Pas=

Radically means all.

Each/ every/ any/ all/ the whole/ everyone.
 
Spurgeon's logic fails in believing that many were cast into a tormenting hell before Christ. It doesn't make any sense for man to be condemned and suffering before Christ pays the price.

And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. AV 1611

and all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb that was slain. ESV

Revelation 13:8
 
All= Pas=

Radically means all.

Each/ every/ any/ all/ the whole/ everyone.

let the context speak and you'll find the use of hyperbole, see Figures of Speeck by Bullinger

He, the Lord Jesus Christ, is the atonement for our sins, and for our sins only, and not for the sins of the whole world.

The above is true, but in the context of hyperbole. If it's true without hyperbole then UR is correct and everyone's sins (even the sin of unbelief) has been paid and no one is sent to hell.

Peace,
j
 
JM said:
The above is true, but in the context of hyperbole. If it's true without hyperbole then UR is correct and everyone's sins (even the sin of unbelief) has been paid and no one is sent to hell.


Couldn't you have a theory where Jesus gets sacrificed for everyone, but the sacrifice only works for a person where they have chosen to accept Jesus as their saviour?

That way, Jesus may have died even for the sin of unbelief, but those who don't believe will not get any benefit and it doesn't result in UR.
 
JM said:
Charles H. Spurgeon had these words to say about limited atonement (from his sermon, "The Mission of the Son of Man"):

"To think that my Savior died for men in hell, seems a supposition too horrible for me to imagine. That He was the substitute for the sons of men, and that God having first punished the substitute, punished these same men again, seems to me to conflict with any idea of justice.


A calvinist making an appeal to "justice"!! How bonkers is that?
 
And if Jesus Christ were really a "substitute", then he would be burning in hell for all eternity. (If that is what sinners deserve.)
 
DivineNames said:
JM said:
The above is true, but in the context of hyperbole. If it's true without hyperbole then UR is correct and everyone's sins (even the sin of unbelief) has been paid and no one is sent to hell.


Couldn't you have a theory where Jesus gets sacrificed for everyone, but the sacrifice only works for a person where they have chosen to accept Jesus as their saviour?

That way, Jesus may have died even for the sin of unbelief, but those who don't believe will not get any benefit and it doesn't result in UR.
Not exactly a theory, that is sort of how it's laid out in the NT, DN. :)
 
DivineNames said:
JM said:
The above is true, but in the context of hyperbole. If it's true without hyperbole then UR is correct and everyone's sins (even the sin of unbelief) has been paid and no one is sent to hell.


Couldn't you have a theory where Jesus gets sacrificed for everyone, but the sacrifice only works for a person where they have chosen to accept Jesus as their saviour?

That way, Jesus may have died even for the sin of unbelief, but those who don't believe will not get any benefit and it doesn't result in UR.

Sorry, it doesn't work that way. The Bible makes it clear that Christ's death takes away sins. If He died for the whole world, then the sins of the whole world would be taken away. That was the purpose for Christ's death. What you propose is still limited atonement you just limit the power of Christ's death to save, I limited the scoop.

Peace
 
JM said:
Sorry, it doesn't work that way. The Bible makes it clear that Christ's death takes away sins. If He died for the whole world, then the sins of the whole world would be taken away. That was the purpose for Christ's death. What you propose is still limited atonement you just limit the power of Christ's death to save, I limited the scoop.

Peace

Yes, JM, it does indeed not work that way. You have limited the "scoop" considerably by even mentioning "limited" in the same breath as the Lord Yahweh. :-D Do you know how many times "limited atonement" is mentioned in the Sacred Words? That is absolutely correct....ZERO! Oh, but "limited" is mentioned quite clearly in the Living Words, although only one time.

You have limited the Holy One of Israel!

Now, JM, the disciple who leaned upon the bosom of the Saviour of the world, declared that the ilasmov of our sins is joined by the conjunction dev/and. The Lord Lesous is the propitiation for our sins and the sins of the whole world (peri olou tou kosmou). He further declares that the Saviour's propitiation is not for our sins monon/ alone, only, merely; but for the sins of the whole ungodly multitude.
 
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